Line Combos: TOR needs to **** or get off the pot in regards to our defense

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,284
17,190
Next season:

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Kapanen
Grundstrom Lindholm Brown
UFA

Rielly Zaitsev
Dermott Liljegren
Borgman Holl
Rosen Carrick

Andersen
Sparks
 
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Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
29,787
21,962
Replacing Bozak and JVR who were sheltered and still looked bad defensively will help a lot. It was too many easy minutes for the competition to play against.

Having all of our young forwards a year older and better defensively will help this team immensely.

So much this. I said it a year ago and I'll say it again now, our young guys should be better today than they were a year ago and should be better 6 months now then they are today.

We aren't in the first year of contending for 10 years. We are in the 2nd year of an approxtimate 8 year window. While it could be 7 years or 9 years; there window won't be here forever. Look at how fast the Hawks declined. Even the Pens window may be coming to an end.

I am fine trading Liliegren; his age doesn't fit in with the core. D-men take so long to develop.

I'd do Liliegren, Kapanen + 1st round pick for the right top d-man. There are times you go for it; that window is now.

For the right guy, sure. The right guy means someone who might be around for the next 8 years or so though.
 
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namttebih

Registered User
Dec 11, 2010
4,778
912
East York
We aren't in the first year of contending for 10 years. We are in the 2nd year of an approxtimate 8 year window. While it could be 7 years or 9 years; there window won't be here forever. Look at how fast the Hawks declined. Even the Pens window may be coming to an end.

I am fine trading Liliegren; his age doesn't fit in with the core. D-men take so long to develop.

I'd do Liliegren, Kapanen + 1st round pick for the right top d-man. There are times you go for it; that window is now.
That's pretty short sighted IMO. If Lilj is closer to the top 3 pick that he was originally projected to be, his development will be far less than your average dman. Then what? Nobody in the system able to step in until a bunch of maybes in SD, RS or ER? They're all 4 years from making any impact if they do at all. On top of that you trade KK and a first? Who steps into Marleau, Kadri, Hyman and Brown's roles when they get priced out.

As you said, 8ish year window. Lilj could possibly make a significant impact a year or two down the road. Seems asinine to trade our one blue chip prospect for a Dman that doesn't even exist anyway? Go ahead, name him.
 

luvdahattymatty

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
511
405
I think one of the reasons Babs has failed in the playoffs in recent years is everyone else in league knows how he likes his defence to play. When he first started with his unconventional ideas of defence they worked because he had Lindstrom. He has never fully understood what he had. He still thinks it is his system for playing his defencemen works in playoffs. In my humble opinion it doesn't. It works in regular season when the d have more time and space with the puck. However when things tighten up and playoff hockey starts the system breaks down UNLESS you have the best puck mover to ever play defence and you play him like a beast for 30 minutes a game. His post Lindstrom Wings and his current Leafs do not have the special player to ALWAYS relieve pressure every single time. So his system for d leads to break out problems and because we have a light weight d we get hemmed in our own end. Even 2 of best centres in league at that time post Lindstrom could not bail out the defensive breakdowns. I fear even Tavares and Matthews will have similar issues. This is why Shanny/Dubie can force a change by bringing in some heavy fast and nasty dmen who know how intimidate smaller faster more skilled forwards. Once those type of guys lose their urge to go to net then pressure is eliminated. We saw that with Chara on Matty and Willy in last years playoffs. It is the fear of a big man dropping his shoulder or elbow into your head and breaking your orbital bone which stops the pressure. We do not have those 2 guys. and polak was not nasty enough and not fast enough to keep up. When we get those 2 guys we will win Cup every year. The great thing is they are not the most expensive pieces. I am told they are easy to come by but personally i dont belive that at all. The Prongers and Charas of this world win Cups because everyone else fears them on the ice.
 

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
9,648
7,521
I think a large part of the problem is that the forwards are blowing the zone too soon, or not coming deep enough. So when the d goes behind the net to get the puck, there is no passing option on the boards, so they turn back, and that is when they get caught.
 
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luvdahattymatty

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
511
405
This is Babs system. He has been running it for years. It is a triangle theory. Puck moves fast to open man between 2 defence and centre. The wingers are expected to move opposing d off blue line and give the centre or dman a moving outlet. That is why you see so many hail mary passes from our d which get intercepted. My theory is it works in regular season when other teams give you more time and space on their forecheck. It has not worked for past decade as Babs teams have had years of first round exits. It did work with Lindstrom clearly. but he was a super special talent and he could lug it out himself when extreme forecheck occured as he had so much skill. Like Orr did before him. But i like a traditional system with 5 men back where you move as a team of 5 guys on the breakout. The hockey slows down and maybe he thinks his team cant handle the board play required. My issue is our dmen cant get puck back from opposition when we do lose it as you saw in the bruins series. Size speed and power on puck and man can free up pucks for our centres. But we dont have that type of personnel right now. I am not saying you need a whole crew of those guys but 2 guys who can really helps.
 

ANDI P IS CUTE

Registered User
Oct 7, 2009
2,616
1,027
Windsor On
I think one of the reasons Babs has failed in the playoffs in recent years is everyone else in league knows how he likes his defence to play. When he first started with his unconventional ideas of defence they worked because he had Lindstrom. He has never fully understood what he had. He still thinks it is his system for playing his defencemen works in playoffs. In my humble opinion it doesn't. It works in regular season when the d have more time and space with the puck. However when things tighten up and playoff hockey starts the system breaks down UNLESS you have the best puck mover to ever play defence and you play him like a beast for 30 minutes a game. His post Lindstrom Wings and his current Leafs do not have the special player to ALWAYS relieve pressure every single time. So his system for d leads to break out problems and because we have a light weight d we get hemmed in our own end. Even 2 of best centres in league at that time post Lindstrom could not bail out the defensive breakdowns. I fear even Tavares and Matthews will have similar issues. This is why Shanny/Dubie can force a change by bringing in some heavy fast and nasty dmen who know how intimidate smaller faster more skilled forwards. Once those type of guys lose their urge to go to net then pressure is eliminated. We saw that with Chara on Matty and Willy in last years playoffs. It is the fear of a big man dropping his shoulder or elbow into your head and breaking your orbital bone which stops the pressure. We do not have those 2 guys. and polak was not nasty enough and not fast enough to keep up. When we get those 2 guys we will win Cup every year. The great thing is they are not the most expensive pieces. I am told they are easy to come by but personally i dont belive that at all. The Prongers and Charas of this world win Cups because everyone else fears them on the ice.
 

lifelonghockeyfan

Registered User
Dec 18, 2015
6,283
1,356
Lake Huron
Just about every team wishes they could upgrade their dmen, especially the 4,5,6,7 guys. So the Leafs aren't unique in this spot. How to obtain one without depleting another position in a trade is the task Dubas will be wrestling with....maybe for years.
 

Polaris1010

Registered User
Mar 23, 2017
3,800
1,300
grandma's cellar
If Nylander does not report to camp, and management decides to trade him, what will he fetch in return?

Shanahan and the coach Babcock, wants Toronto to be a place where players want to come and play, such as Marleau, and Tavares.

It would seem to be a real possibility that if this contract dispute drags on, Nylander could be traded.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
2,991
1,056
Next season:

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Kapanen
Grundstrom Lindholm Brown
UFA

Rielly Zaitsev
Dermott Liljegren
Borgman Holl
Rosen Carrick

Andersen
Sparks

So a defence core of mostly players who've played around 100 games or less in the NHL. Stanley Cup recipe right there:naughty:. Thankfully we still have Marleau on the first line.
 

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,284
17,190
So a defence core of mostly players who've played around 100 games or less in the NHL. Stanley Cup recipe right there:naughty:. Thankfully we still have Marleau on the first line.
And if we develop them right, they can be a Predators type dcore. They will be heavily protected by our forwards so this is the best time to do it.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
2,991
1,056
And if we develop them right, they can be a Predators type dcore. They will be heavily protected by our forwards so this is the best time to do it.

By next year? Yeah, sure. So Marleau is here to babysit inexperienced defencemen as opposed to winning a cup. Wouldn't it just be better to move him out and replace him with a skilled and experienced $6mil defenseman. Better odds at winning a cup, IMHO.
 
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rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
20,427
6,114
And if we develop them right, they can be a Predators type dcore. They will be heavily protected by our forwards so this is the best time to do it.
the chance that defence core turns into a predators type dcore is exceptionally unlikely. zaitsev is 26 turning 27 in a month, so he's at an age where room for improvement will be scarce. he can't handle 2nd pairing minutes, so placing him on the top pair where he wasn't good either in his rookie season is a terrible idea. lillegren on the 2nd pair is a bad idea as well because he will be a rookie playing against relatively good competition and he hasn't even played in the nhl yet. the odds are he will play on the bottom pair as a rookie and face weak competition, like dermott has been tasked with. its up to him to prove he can play well against bottom pairing competition and move up a pair.

also, your second sentence contradicts your first sentence. the preds top-4 runs the team, so it doesn't need to be heavily protected by its forwards. if the leafs defence core will be protected by the forwards, it can't be possible that their backend can be a predators type dcore.
 

Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
9,490
8,767
5v5 Dmen stats for the opener:

TOI:
Gards: 18:13
Zaitsev: 17:28
Rielly: 16:28
Hainsey: 16:13
Dermott: 14:58
Oz: 12:16

Corsi%:
Dermott: 62%
Oz: 50%
Zaitsev: 50%
Hainsey: 36%
Gards: 33%
Rielly: 29%

Scoring chances%:
Zaitsev: 65%
Dermott: 57%
Gards: 48%
Oz: 42%
Hainsey: 38%
Rielly: 26%

High Danger chances%:
Zaitsev: 67%
Dermott: 57%
Gards: 43%
Oz: 30%
Hainsey: 29%
Rielly: 20%

Standout games from Dermott and Zaitsev tonight.
 

Skin Tape Session

Registered User
Oct 7, 2017
1,584
725
We are in a spot where every gm knows what we need and knows its a final piece, the price is higher for us as no gm wants to hand us a cup or at least rnd 3.

Our only option is waiting until the deadline imo
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
2,991
1,056
5v5 Dmen stats for the opener:

TOI:
Gards: 18:13
Zaitsev: 17:28
Rielly: 16:28
Hainsey: 16:13
Dermott: 14:58
Oz: 12:16

Corsi%:
Dermott: 62%
Oz: 50%
Zaitsev: 50%
Hainsey: 36%
Gards: 33%
Rielly: 29%

Scoring chances%:
Zaitsev: 65%
Dermott: 57%
Gards: 48%
Oz: 42%
Hainsey: 38%
Rielly: 26%

High Danger chances%:
Zaitsev: 67%
Dermott: 57%
Gards: 43%
Oz: 30%
Hainsey: 29%
Rielly: 20%

Standout games from Dermott and Zaitsev tonight.

What do you think the odds are Ozhi and Hainsey switch places by the end of the year?
 

pucky

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
8,079
172
Just about every team wishes they could upgrade their dmen, especially the 4,5,6,7 guys. So the Leafs aren't unique in this spot. How to obtain one without depleting another position in a trade is the task Dubas will be wrestling with....maybe for years.
He doesn't know how to evaluate goaltenders. What makes you think he can evaluate defencemen?
 

Albus Dumbledore

Master of Death
Mar 28, 2015
9,007
2,670
if zaitsev keeps it up he should be moved up with rielly. He really needs the help, zaitsev would really stabilize him.

Rielly-Zaitsev
Gardiner-Hainsey(babs would still want him in the top 4)
Dermott-OZ
 

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