Trade: [TOR/ARI] Daulton Varsho for Gabriel Moreno and Lourdes Gurriel Jr

[Dr Pepper]

2 years ago, the Jays finished 3rd in all of baseball in runs-per-game at 5.22

This past season they averaged just 4.55 RPG, which ranked 16th in MLB

They let Semien walk in free-agency 2 years ago, despite coming off a season in which he finished 3rd in MVP voting, and last winter they traded Hernandez for a relief pitcher

And then rather than simply pay up to sign Bellinger as a free-agent last winter to replace Hernandez in the lineup, they traded one of the best prospects in all of baseball for an inferior player

I genuinely don't understand how this level of asset mismanagement can occur within a front office of an MLB team

I remember Bellinger being an option last offseason, figured the Jays at least kicked the tires there. Maybe not.

 

[Neutrinos]

I remember Bellinger being an option last offseason, figured the Jays at least kicked the tires there. Maybe not.

Shortly before Bellinger signed with the Cubs on a 1-year deal for 12.5 million, reports indicated that the Cubs and Jays had emerged as the front-runners, and that Cody was deciding between the two teams

Obviously, we can only speculate as to what Toronto's offer might have been, but logic would suggest it wasn't significantly bigger than what Chicago was offering

If that's the case, it means the Jays lost out on Bellinger because they didn't want to up their offer by a million or two

Rogers is one of the wealthiest owners in North American sports, so at no point should an extra million or two prevent them from acquiring a player they covet - especially on a 1-year deal!

 

[Dr Pepper]

Shortly before Bellinger signed with the Cubs on a 1-year deal for 12.5 million, reports indicated that the Cubs and Jays had emerged as the front-runners, and that Cody was deciding between the two teams

Obviously, we can only speculate as to what Toronto's offer might have been, but logic would suggest it wasn't significantly bigger than what Chicago was offering

If that's the case, it means the Jays lost out on Bellinger because they didn't want to up their offer by a million or two

Rogers is one of the wealthiest owners in North American sports, so at no point should an extra million or two prevent them from acquiring a player they covet - especially on a 1-year deal!

Well, either that or Bellinger ultimately decided he didn't want to play in Canada.

Also based on the timeline which outfielder did the Jays see as the fallback. if Bellinger fell through?

Varsho? Or Kiermaier?

Again I feel like both of those guys were net positives given what they brought to the table defensively, even if the pop on offense wasn't what we'd all hoped.

Had they signed Bellinger to the same one-year deal, then maybe it just would've been him tweeting out his goodbye to the Jays faithful after last week's debacle. And we're back to the drawing board either way.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Well, either that or Bellinger ultimately decided he didn't want to play in Canada.

Also based on the timeline which outfielder did the Jays see as the fallback. if Bellinger fell through?

Varsho? Or Kiermaier?

Again I feel like both of those guys were net positives given what they brought to the table defensively, even if the pop on offense wasn't what we'd all hoped.

Had they signed Bellinger to the same one-year deal, then maybe it just would've been him tweeting out his goodbye to the Jays faithful after last week's debacle. And we're back to the drawing board either way.

A lot easier to keep a guy once you already have him, vs trying to pry him away from another team and situation or come in fresh and outbid other teams.

Bellinger is 28 y/o so right in the age range you would be fine with signing a longer term deal on if things were working out. KK was always going to be short term deals based on his age and limitations.

Regardless, Jays will have significant roster turnover with KK, Chapman, Belt, and likely Whit so they can't afford to sit on their hands this offseason if they want to be 'competitive'.

 

[Voight]

Shortly before Bellinger signed with the Cubs on a 1-year deal for 12.5 million, reports indicated that the Cubs and Jays had emerged as the front-runners, and that Cody was deciding between the two teams

Obviously, we can only speculate as to what Toronto's offer might have been, but logic would suggest it wasn't significantly bigger than what Chicago was offering

If that's the case, it means the Jays lost out on Bellinger because they didn't want to up their offer by a million or two

Rogers is one of the wealthiest owners in North American sports, so at no point should an extra million or two prevent them from acquiring a player they covet - especially on a 1-year deal!

It shouldn't, but they also neglected to spend money on players / roster improvements for the first 14/15 years they owned the team.

 

[Neutrinos]

Please, for the love of God, let Arizona win the World Series, with Gabriel Moreno named WS MVP

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

This may already be a top 3 worst trade in Jays history. I am guessing the Michael Young trade, the Doc Halladay trade and the David Wells to Chicago trade would be the main competition.

 

[Neutrinos]

This may already be a top 3 worst trade in Jays history. I am guessing the Michael Young trade, the Doc Halladay trade and the David Wells to Chicago trade would be the main competition.

The Derek Bell trade was awful

The Jays also traded a young Jeff Kent for a single playoff run of David Cone. Yeah, they won the World Series, but still...

Then there was the Cone trade to the Yankees for Marty Janzen

And then there was the Tom Candiotti trade in which the Jays gave up Glenallen Hill, Mark Whiten, and Denis Boucher

Shawn Green for Raul Mondesi was pretty gross as well

Roger Clemens to the Yankees was just as bad as the Green trade

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

This may already be a top 3 worst trade in Jays history. I am guessing the Michael Young trade, the Doc Halladay trade and the David Wells to Chicago trade would be the main competition.

Phillies were the only team Halladay asked to go to and the Jays respected his wish. Wasn’t much they could do.

RA Dickey trade was a catastrophe. Dickey for Syndergaard and D’Arnaud? Makes me sick.

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

Shawn Green for Raul Mondesi was pretty gross as well

Mondesi wasn’t that bad for the Jays.

Green trade was complicated because the dollar was terrible at the time, Green alluded to wanting to play closer to come, and ownership had changed. Jays couldn’t afford to extend him. Maybe they could’ve traded him somewhere else or got something else from the Dodgers but management’s hands were tied.

 

[Neutrinos]

Phillies were the only team Halladay asked to go to and the Jays respected his wish. Wasn’t much they could do.

RA Dickey trade was a catastrophe. Dickey for Syndergaard and D’Arnaud? Makes me sick.

I forgot about the Dickey trade

Good call!

 

[Neutrinos]

Mondesi wasn’t that bad for the Jays.

Green trade was complicated because the dollar was terrible at the time, Green alluded to wanting to play closer to come, and ownership had changed. Jays couldn’t afford to extend him. Maybe they could’ve traded him somewhere else or got something else from the Dodgers but management’s hands were tied.

The Green trade had the same issue as the Clemens trade

The Jays were trying to compete, and so they took a lesser win-now player as the centerpiece of the deal in order to remain competitive

The Green situation was unfortunate, as he had been drafted by the Jays, developed by the Jays, and had just established himself as an all-star caliber player as he entered his prime, and then a year away from free-agency he informed the team that he wouldn't be re-signing

He had been a 10.4 WAR player over the previous 2 seasons, whereas Mondesi had been worth 5.5 WAR over that same stretch, and that doesn't take into account that Green was trending upwards, while Mondesi had been declining

Toronto got 2.5 seasons out of Mondesi before he was traded to the Yankees, which isn't the kind of value a franchise should be grateful for when dealing away a player who would go on to finish 6th and 5th in MVP voting in the years following the trade

 

[Dr Pepper]

This may already be a top 3 worst trade in Jays history. I am guessing the Michael Young trade, the Doc Halladay trade and the David Wells to Chicago trade would be the main competition.

Honestly I feel bad for Varsho, since a growing number of Jays fans are gonna bury him over how well Moreno and Gurriel do with the D-Backs.

Especially if they come back and win against Texas.

Wasn't Varsho's fault that Atkins overpaid to get him. And again he's not a total liability out there, y'know?

 

[Voight]

Honestly I feel bad for Varsho, since a growing number of Jays fans are gonna bury him over how well Moreno and Gurriel do with the D-Backs.

Especially if they come back and win against Texas.

Wasn't Varsho's fault that Atkins overpaid to get him. And again he's not a total liability out there, y'know?

If you're going to trade one of the top prospects in all of baseball, dont do it for a run of the mill outfielder.

 

[Dr Pepper]

If you're going to trade one of the top prospects in all of baseball, dont do it for a run of the mill outfielder.

Hey I agree, I've said earlier in this thread that the Jays traded the wrong catcher.

100%.

But again, that's still not Varsho's fault.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

A lot of these players being brought up, requested trades out of Toronto for one reason or another.

Halladay only wanted to go to Philly
Green wanted to go back to Cali
Clemens wanted to go a to contender
Wells absolutely hated being in Toronto
Glaus didn't want to play here
Rolen didn't want to play here

Not saying any/all of the returns were good but hands were tied to a certain degree.

The Cone/Kent trade is fine. It's like the Stars trading Iggy to Calgary for Joe Niewendyk. You win it all and it's more than worth it. Jays won both WS starts that Cone pitched in against Atlanta including Game 6. He pitched 6IP and gave up 1 run... yeah... you do that trade everytime.

The Moreno one is bad (as mentioned many times) because Varsho is just not the piece you get back for this kind of prospect/player. Gabby wasn't some random player in the system with a bit of talent that might turn out. He's a bonafide stud catcher and he showed what he could do when he was called up in 2022.

I still don't have an issue with trading Moreno... you just had to get back a much better player

 

[Neutrinos]

I want everyone in Toronto's front office responsible for this trade to wake up dead on Christmas morning...

 

[Dr Pepper]

^Probably only makes up for half of the double plays that he hit into, last season.

Almost felt like it happened every game.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

After watching that video it got me thinking... like I kind of don't think you can really have this guy in a lineup. The baserunning is just so unbelievably bad. If Kirk was mashing 30-40+ bombs every year then it's probably worth it. You kind of get into that weird Schwarber territory or something like that where the player is terribly flawed but they provide one super elite thing.

To your point @Dr Pepper, how many DP's, fielder's choice, not taking the average (let alone extra) base are we talking about over the course of the year?

Kirk is a contact guy but not a ton of power. So he hits a single... if he's not driving someone in, he's basically an out waiting to happen.

Also, this is concerning (in general) for Jays fans)...

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[Dr Pepper]

After watching that video it got me thinking... like I kind of don't think you can really have this guy in a lineup. The baserunning is just so unbelievably bad. If Kirk was mashing 30-40+ bombs every year then it's probably worth it. You kind of get into that weird Schwarber territory or something like that where the player is terribly flawed but they provide one super elite thing.

To your point @Dr Pepper, how many DP's, fielder's choice, not taking the average (let alone extra) base are we talking about over the course of the year?

Kirk is a contact guy but not a ton of power. So he hits a single... if he's not driving someone in, he's basically an out waiting to happen.

Also, this is concerning (in general) for Jays fans)...

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Stats Perform harnesses the true power of sports data by leveraging advancements in artificial intelligence to generate the industry’s richest insights.

hosted.stats.com

Even more likely to happen, when the manager opts not to swap him out for a pinch runner.

Also, five Jays in the top 24 eh? Can't say I'm too shocked by that, given what we just went through last season.

Surprised Giancarlo Stanton didn't make the list, dude's almost as slow as Kirk out there.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Also, seeing as how we're talking about Kirk, another gentle reminder that Varsho's a capable catcher.

Maybe next season the Jays will finally make use of that fact and put him back there.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Even more likely to happen, when the manager opts not to swap him out for a pinch runner.

Also, five Jays in the top 24 eh? Can't say I'm too shocked by that, given what we just went through last season.

Surprised Giancarlo Stanton didn't make the list, dude's almost as slow as Kirk out there.

Big problem with the Jays last year was no one hitting for power so instead of runners on 2nd or 3rd, just a lot of slow guys on first base and Vladdy and Springer love pounding it to the shortstop. Kirk is just so slow that just about anything can be a double play with him in the batters box. I'm surprised he hasn't been Billy Butler'd at first base yet.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Big problem with the Jays last year was no one hitting for power so instead of runners on 2nd or 3rd, just a lot of slow guys on first base and Vladdy and Springer love pounding it to the shortstop. Kirk is just so slow that just about anything can be a double play with him in the batters box. I'm surprised he hasn't been Billy Butler'd at first base yet.

Careful or you're gonna speak it into existence.

 

[Neutrinos]

I want everyone in Toronto's front office responsible for this trade to wake up dead on Christmas morning...

I've seen a more graceful gait at the Special Olympics...

 

[Dr Pepper]

I'm seen more graceful gaits at the Special Olympics...

Remember last year, when that freelance journo out of Montreal made a crack at Kirk's overall fitness, either on instagram or twitter, and then Alek Manoah roasted him for a day or two, and it went viral and the guy ended up apologizing?

I wonder how he feels now.