Trade: [TOR/ARI] Daulton Varsho for Gabriel Moreno and Lourdes Gurriel Jr

[Dr Pepper]

Yes…. This is another thing I don’t understand. I thought getting Varsho, a big point of it was ‘well, we’re not really losing a catcher because Varsho can do that as well.’ Seems strange to give up big assets to fry this guy based on his ‘unicorn positionality’ and then stick him only in LF but nothing the Jays do makes sense these days

Exactly. You'd think even as a defensive replacement it would've happened by now but it's like Schneider's afraid to try it and I can't figure out why.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Varsho over his last 10 games (28 PA)

.083 AVG, .214 OBP, 0 RBI

My god... that's almost as bad as Paul DeJong

 

[Neutrinos]

My god... that's almost as bad as Paul DeJong

He's got a .622 OPS since May 10th

That is actually worse than Munenori Kawasaki's OPS (.627) during his 201 games with Toronto, and almost as bad as John McDonald's .617 mark during his 549 games with the club

The Jays essentially traded one of the best prospects in baseball for a late-inning defensive replacement

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

He's got a .622 OPS since May 10th

That is actually worse than Munenori Kawasaki's OPS (.627) during his 201 games with Toronto, and almost as bad as John McDonald's .617 mark during his 549 games with the club

The Jays essentially traded one of the best prospects in baseball for a late-inning defensive replacement

Swings so hard... just misses the ball everytime. If only he could fix that

 

[Dr Pepper]

Swings so hard... just misses the ball everytime. If only he could fix that

Or bunt more, since he's actually been pretty good at laying those down.

 

[Neutrinos]

End of season totals:

Gurriel
65 runs, 24 HR, 82 RBI, 108 OPS+, 3.0 WAR in 145 games (592 PA)

Moreno
33 runs, 7 HR, 50 RBI, 104 OPS+, 4.3 WAR in 111 games (380 PA)

Varsho
65 runs, 20 HR, 61 RBI, 85 OPS+, 3.9 WAR in 158 games (581 PA)


Do any of you still think this was a good trade for Toronto?

As an Dbacks fan... Man, that's a stupid trade. Varsho is future star.

Varsho + Kirk for Moreno

Deal?

 

[Dr Pepper]

End of season totals:

Gurriel
65 runs, 24 HR, 82 RBI, 108 OPS+, 3.0 WAR in 145 games (592 PA)

Moreno
33 runs, 7 HR, 50 RBI, 104 OPS+, 4.3 WAR in 111 games (380 PA)

Varsho
65 runs, 20 HR, 61 RBI, 85 OPS+, 3.9 WAR in 158 games (581 PA)


Do any of you still think this was a good trade for Toronto?


Varsho + Kirk for Moreno

Deal?

Varsho did bring more defensively, as Toronto's outfield was one of the best units in all of baseball

Didn't help much this week though, obviously.

I've said for a while now that Toronto traded the wrong catcher.

Kirk's value will never be as high as it was last offseason. Can't say the same for Moreno.

 

[Neutrinos]

Varsho did bring more defensively, as Toronto's outfield was one of the best units in all of baseball

Didn't help much this week though, obviously.

I've said for a while now that Toronto traded the wrong catcher.

Kirk's value will never be as high as it was last offseason. Can't say the same for Moreno.

Couldn't the same be said about Varsho?

 

[Dr Pepper]

Couldn't the same be said about Varsho?

Possibly.

I'd definitely rather have Varsho than Kirk though, it's really just giving up Moreno that hurts right now.

 

[Neutrinos]

Moreno looks like building block in Arizona and Guirriel has had a better year than Varsho

It was awful overpayment by Jays at time and looks worse now

Moreno is already a 6.0 WAR player per 162 games to begin his career

As I said in my original assessment of the deal 'this one has the potential to haunt the Jays for the next decade'

 

[Neutrinos]

So, in his first ever postseason at-bat, Moreno hit more home runs, had more RBI, and scored just as many runs as the entire Jays roster did in their series with the Twins

This trade really is something special!

 

[AKL]

I loved this trade when it happened and I love it even more now.

But I don't think anyone expected Moreno to be this good this quickly. Even the Dbacks planned on having him back up Kelly this entire year, but he was forced to take on a bigger role immediately due to Kelly's injury in spring training. There was also the fact that he was supposed to be not that great of a defensive catcher, and in the matter of a season, he became one of the better defensive catchers.

Hindsight is 20/20 but the Jays were looking to win now, and the Dbacks weren't looking to even make the playoffs until next year. They were betting on potential and I guess they won that bet.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

A lot of overrreaction to this trade, its still early...and it's mostly one poster.

That said, if you trade a prospect like they did, it should be for a bonafide, no-doubt superstar.

 

[Neutrinos]

So, in his first ever postseason at-bat, Moreno hit more home runs, had more RBI, and scored just as many runs as the entire Jays roster did in their series with the Twins

This trade really is something special!

And then in Game 2, Gurriel hit more home runs, had more RBI, and scored just as many runs as the entire Jays roster did in their series with the Twins

This trade really is something special!

 

[Voight]

Varsho did bring more defensively, as Toronto's outfield was one of the best units in all of baseball

Didn't help much this week though, obviously.

I've said for a while now that Toronto traded the wrong catcher.

Kirk's value will never be as high as it was last offseason. Can't say the same for Moreno.

Moreno was one of the top prospects in baseball so trading him for a a guy like Varsha was a stupid move to begin with.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Varsho obviouslt had a very bad year at the plate, but defensively he is one of the best in the game. I stand by Toronto's vision of getting a player like him. It made sense... what they gave up for him did not though.

They wanted to move on from Gourriel... which is fair enough. He was streaky and inconsistent and prone to some big mistakes. But it's almost like they came at it as unloading him as a negative asset (same with Teoscar). Jays should have traded Kirk plain and simple. If that didn't get you Varsho then fine. He would have gotten a pretty valuable piece last offseason though most likely.

Like others have said, trading a Moreno caliber prospect for a Varsho type player was the issue from the beginning. Not that they got Varsho.

 

[Neutrinos]

Varsho obviouslt had a very bad year at the plate, but defensively he is one of the best in the game. I stand by Toronto's vision of getting a player like him. It made sense... what they gave up for him did not though.

They wanted to move on from Gourriel... which is fair enough. He was streaky and inconsistent and prone to some big mistakes. But it's almost like they came at it as unloading him as a negative asset (same with Teoscar). Jays should have traded Kirk plain and simple. If that didn't get you Varsho then fine. He would have gotten a pretty valuable piece last offseason though most likely.

Like others have said, trading a Moreno caliber prospect for a Varsho type player was the issue from the beginning. Not that they got Varsho.

Kirk + Gurriel for Varsho would've been a perfectly acceptable trade

It would've given Arizona their catcher of the present and future, plus a solid replacement in their outfield with Gurriel

And Toronto would've gotten their defensive upgrade in the outfield

What we ended up with is a trade that should cost Ross Atkins his job as Toronto's GM

 

[Dr Pepper]

Kirk + Gurriel for Varsho would've been a perfectly acceptable trade

It would've given Arizona their catcher of the present and future, plus a solid replacement in their outfield with Gurriel

And Toronto would've gotten their defensive upgrade in the outfield

What we ended up with is a trade that should cost Ross Atkins his job as Toronto's GM

Maybe he'll pin the trade on Schneider too, who knows.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Toronto's front office is definitely getting stale. They have a lot of money to work and a decent core + very solid pitching.

Spots to fill are 3B, 2B, DH, and 1 OF spot.

Maybe Ryu comes back on the cheap, and maybe Kiermaier is back as well.

Chapman is gone and Whitt most likely as well. He has an 18$m mutual option which obviously isn't going to happen. Belt is maybe retiring.

Not sure they have the pull to get any of these guys but they need to be in on Bellinger, Hoskins and some of the other bats. Lots of pitching on the market this offseason but obviously the Jays need power and it's a fairly weak year for that overall. Might as well sell Newfoundland or something to get Ohtani.

 

[Voight]

Toronto's front office is definitely getting stale. They have a lot of money to work and a decent core + very solid pitching.

Spots to fill are 3B, 2B, DH, and 1 OF spot.

Maybe Ryu comes back on the cheap, and maybe Kiermaier is back as well.

Chapman is gone and Whitt most likely as well. He has an 18$m mutual option which obviously isn't going to happen. Belt is maybe retiring.

Not sure they have the pull to get any of these guys but they need to be in on Bellinger, Hoskins and some of the other bats. Lots of pitching on the market this offseason but obviously the Jays need power and it's a fairly weak year for that overall. Might as well sell Newfoundland or something to get Ohtani.

Rogers should give Ohtani a blank cheque. Unlikely he'd sign with Toronto but Rogers has as deep pockets as any owner. How many other team owners can claim their business has a monopoly?

 

[Voight]

Kirk + Gurriel for Varsho would've been a perfectly acceptable trade

It would've given Arizona their catcher of the present and future, plus a solid replacement in their outfield with Gurriel

And Toronto would've gotten their defensive upgrade in the outfield

What we ended up with is a trade that should cost Ross Atkins his job as Toronto's GM

Should cost Atkins and Shapiro their jobs. Bring in some fresh meat cause it aint working with these two.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Toronto's front office is definitely getting stale. They have a lot of money to work and a decent core + very solid pitching.

Spots to fill are 3B, 2B, DH, and 1 OF spot.

Maybe Ryu comes back on the cheap, and maybe Kiermaier is back as well.

Chapman is gone and Whitt most likely as well. He has an 18$m mutual option which obviously isn't going to happen. Belt is maybe retiring.

Not sure they have the pull to get any of these guys but they need to be in on Bellinger, Hoskins and some of the other bats. Lots of pitching on the market this offseason but obviously the Jays need power and it's a fairly weak year for that overall. Might as well sell Newfoundland or something to get Ohtani.

I think Toronto just needs Manoah to get his head out of his ass and show up next season. If he can manage that, maybe work on his conditioning, then they don't need Ryu back.

And Kiermaier's as good as gone, if that statement he gave last week was any indication.

Shame, too, because I really liked what he brought the team.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I think Toronto just needs Manoah to get his head out of his ass and show up next season. If he can manage that, maybe work on his conditioning, then they don't need Ryu back.

And Kiermaier's as good as gone, if that statement he gave last week was any indication.

Shame, too, because I really liked what he brought the team.

Ya definitely seems like KK is gone based on his message to fans but who knows. He brought a lot of good things to the club this year.

I agree with you on Manoah. He needs to get his shit together but it’s never a bad idea to have an extra arm in the mix because you never know what could happen. Either way, there are plenty of options for arms and the rotation and pen are not much of a concern. Team needs some professional hitters. Not just guys with talent who hack and whack.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Ya definitely seems like KK is gone based on his message to fans but who knows. He brought a lot of good things to the club this year.

I agree with you on Manoah. He needs to get his shit together but it’s never a bad idea to have an extra arm in the mix because you never know what could happen. Either way, there are plenty of options for arms and the rotation and pen are not much of a concern. Team needs some professional hitters. Not just guys with talent who hack and whack.

Indeed, pitching was 100% not the issue with Toronto.

New hitting coach, plus a couple new bodies in the lineup should help out.

 

[Neutrinos]

Toronto's front office is definitely getting stale. They have a lot of money to work and a decent core + very solid pitching.

Spots to fill are 3B, 2B, DH, and 1 OF spot.

Maybe Ryu comes back on the cheap, and maybe Kiermaier is back as well.

Chapman is gone and Whitt most likely as well. He has an 18$m mutual option which obviously isn't going to happen. Belt is maybe retiring.

Not sure they have the pull to get any of these guys but they need to be in on Bellinger, Hoskins and some of the other bats. Lots of pitching on the market this offseason but obviously the Jays need power and it's a fairly weak year for that overall. Might as well sell Newfoundland or something to get Ohtani.

2 years ago, the Jays finished 3rd in all of baseball in runs-per-game at 5.22

This past season they averaged just 4.55 RPG, which ranked 16th in MLB

They let Semien walk in free-agency 2 years ago, despite coming off a season in which he finished 3rd in MVP voting, and last winter they traded Hernandez for a relief pitcher

And then rather than simply pay up to sign Bellinger as a free-agent last winter to replace Hernandez in the lineup, they traded one of the best prospects in all of baseball for an inferior player

I genuinely don't understand how this level of asset mismanagement can occur within a front office of an MLB team