Trade: [TOR/ARI] Daulton Varsho for Gabriel Moreno and Lourdes Gurriel Jr

[Hellcat]

Chapman's averaged nearly 200 strikeouts per 162 games over the last 2 seasons, so I wouldn't have him hitting directly behind Guerrero

If Merrifield has a good spring, I'd consider having him leadoff

Merrifield
Springer
Bichette
Guerrero
Kirk
Varsho
Chapman
Kiermaier

I like that line up , I put Varsho in front of kirk because Kirk is slow and Varsho has speed, I like my speedy guys having the ability to stretch out doubles, besides that I like how you have the line up set. I agree if Merrifield has a good spring maybe try him out at #1 but I think his bat is gone, he's probably a 8 or 9 now.

If you’re ignorant on the subject why even comment. Holy f***.

It’s a ~12 billion dollar stadium/neighborhood he’s trying to strongarm the local government into blindly signing off of with the help of Manfred. This isn’t some small time project they should rush, especially when John Fisher keeps trying to make the city of Oakland take on more of the bill after previous agreements.

If John Fisher, a top-5 owner by wealth in the mlb, can’t afford to run the team, then sell it to Lacob. He wanted to buy the team before Selig conspired to sell it to his buddy Lew Wolff (and John Fisher).

You don't get rich by giving money away. Sounds like you got rich man envy.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I like that line up , I put Varsho in front of kirk because Kirk is slow and Varsho has speed, I like my speedy guys having the ability to stretch out doubles, besides that I like how you have the line up set. I agree if Merrifield has a good spring maybe try him out at #1 but I think his bat is gone, he's probably a 8 or 9 now.



You don't get rich by giving money away. Sounds like you got rich man envy.

No, sounds like you’re just talking out your ass, again.

I want my baseball team to operate the same as the majority of them do around the league. Has not a god damn thing to do about personal wealth. Educate yourself on a topic before just opening your fat mouth.

Fisher’s father started GAP. Like most Billionaires, he was born into wealth by inheritance. To act like he’s made any wealth on his own is just ignorant. Par the course for you, though.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Sorry to take away from the actual thread, but this is a good deal for both sides IMO. Varsho is an elite defensive of with pop who can fill in behind the plate. Jays had the prospect and Kirk to pick from, and I don’t think Guerriel had as much trade value on the market as he brings currently to an mlb roster. Don’t believe teams looking to acquire him saw him as a long-term option of any kind.

That, and Toronto was bidding against other teams makes this a fair baseball deal.

 

[budzz]

This deal works in so many ways for the Jays. Pitching and defense still works in baseball. We had an obvious strength in 3 very good catchers and it made no sense at all to not use that advantage for a win-now team. To get an elite defender with 4 years of control is hard to find. Price was high yes, but we still have 2 very good catchers, one an all star and cornerstone, and Danny has shown alot of clutch power when needed and is stable behind the plate. That the new guy can also fill in there in a pinch is a bonus. How many conversations about having a third catcher available at various times last year? Solved. Kirks elite bat on base late in a game and you need a pinch runner but still need a catcher? Extra option - solved.

Jays are already very good, add "Elite outfield defense at all 3 positions" to that mix... LUVIT.

Jays pitchers are also LOVING the revamped outfield I guarantee you that.

 

[Neutrinos]

Do you think the Jays would've signed Kiermaier (1 yr. @ 9 mil.) had they known they'd been acquiring Varsho a week later?

 

[budzz]

Do you think the Jays would've signed Kiermaier (1 yr. @ 9 mil.) had they known they'd been acquiring Varsho a week later?

Hell yes. They talked about run prevention from the minute they lost in the playoffs. Between the 2 and , and while Tao was good, his attention to detail drifted many times both on D and on the base paths, this is now a seriously sound outfield.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

My only concern with the outfield is health. Springer always misses time or needs days off due to load management and Kiermaier is always banged up as well. We have depth in Merrifield and Biggio to be able to shuffle things around as needed but it doesn’t seem like a great solution if someone is out long term.

I get that Tilapia wasn’t the answer there either but would have liked to see a better 4th OF option.

 

[Voight]

I think they could've done better given Moreno is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball.

Should've just kept Teoscar, or Waited until they actually signed Nimmo before trading him.

 

[Hellcat]

I think they could've done better given Moreno is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball.

Should've just kept Teoscar, or Waited until they actually signed Nimmo before trading him.

It might have more to do with changing the culture in the locker room vs the product on the field. Both are important but clearly the Jays roster lacked something and it was not offence.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Team acquires 2 great defensive of’s.

“They must be trying to change the locker room culture.”

Herpderp.gif

 

[GOilers88]

Team acquires 2 great defensive of’s.

“They must be trying to change the locker room culture.”

Herpderp.gif

Moving Teo and Gurriel speaks to a locker room shakeup imo, while also upgrading defensively.

Going to be a lot less goofing around in the dugout next year, I think.

 

[Neutrinos]

After giving it some more thought, I'm not a fan of this deal from Toronto's perspective

Now, I should say, I'm not familiar enough with the players involved to say with any certainty what their short and long term impact will be for their respective teams, however, I feel like this is a deal that Arizona would make 10/10 times

Perhaps the Jays' coaching staff sees a flaw in Varsho's swing, or approach at the plate, and think with some minor changes they can maximize his potential as a hitter, but he has a career OBP of .306, and as it stands, that's not the kind of bat I'm giving up Moreno for

If Arizona was in need of a young catcher, why weren't the Jays offering Moreno for Carroll straight up?

Again, I haven't seen Moreno and Varsho enough to have a strong opinion about their play, but based on what I do know, this one has the potential to haunt the Jays for the next decade

It's early, but my take on the trade seems to be fairly spot on

Varsho
6 HR, .216 AVG, .291 OBP, .676 OPS, 87 OPS+, 0.9 WAR

Moreno
1 HR, .321 AVG, .345 OBP, .746 OPS, 107 OPS+, 1.3 WAR

Gurriel
7 HR, .312 AVG, .376 OBP, .929 OPS, 154 OPS+, 1.5 WAR


Not only did Atkins make this deal after signing Kiermaier, meaining Varsho wouldn't even be in CF this season, it was made knowing the defensive upgrade would be somewhat neutralized due to the fences being moved in

Perhaps things will even out as the season progresses, but as it stands now, this is shaping up to be the type of trade that should cost a GM their job

As I said, if Arizona was in need of a catcher, why not Moreno straight up for Carroll?

Carroll is just 22 years old
5 HR, .279 AVG, .365 OBP, .843 OPS, 132 OPS+, 1.2 WAR

Moreno just turned 23, whereas Varsho will be 27 in a little over a month

Kirk for Varsho would've made sense as well

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Carroll is a stud, ARZ wasn't dealing him.

But yeah...I think so far it's very clear TOR overpaid. Even though I think Varsho is a better player than this.

 

[Neutrinos]

Carroll is a stud, ARZ wasn't dealing him.

But yeah...I think so far it's very clear TOR overpaid. Even though I think Varsho is a better player than this.

My point was that Moreno should've been valued the same way

 

[Neutrinos]

My hatred of this trade grows with each passing day

Varsho heads into the all-star break with 0 HR, 2 RBI, 2 BB, 18 strikeouts, a .125 AVG, and an OBP of .160 over his last 50 PA

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

My hatred of this trade grows with each passing day

Varsho heads into the all-star break with 0 HR, 2 RBI, 2 BB, 18 strikeouts, a .125 AVG, and an OBP of .160 over his last 50 PA

Moreno looks like building block in Arizona and Guirriel has had a better year than Varsho

It was awful overpayment by Jays at time and looks worse now

 

[Neutrinos]

Varsho is now batting 8th in Toronto's lineup, and heads into the final couple of weeks of the season sporting a .220 AVG, .287 OBP, and an OPS+ of 82

This trade reminds me of the time the Jays sent a 23 year old Derek Bell to the Padres for Darrin Jackson, an outfielder coming off a season in which he showed some pop and speed with 17 HR and 14 SB, to go along with elite defense (3.9 dWAR), but his averages (.283 OBP, 88 OPS+) were very telling about his upside as a hitter

Jackson went on to post a .250 OBP in 46 games with the Jays before being sent to the Mets, while Bell would go on to establish himself as an all-star caliber hitter during his prime

 

[Neutrinos]

A lefty bat for the Jays at long last!

This is not the lefty bat you're looking for

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

It looks like he’s completely given up trying to hit and is just trying to not strikeout. Which means he’s guessing and getting caught looking now.

It’s crazy though because despite his disastrous showings at the plate, he’s still a 3.2 WAR player currently.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

It looks like he’s completely given up trying to hit and is just trying to not strikeout. Which means he’s guessing and getting caught looking now.

It’s crazy though because despite his disastrous showings at the plate, he’s still a 3.2 WAR player currently.

He's a monster defensively (basically best in the game, I think he has 26 DRS) and if he ever gets on base he's a smart player and good base runner. Tons of hustle.

He has stills, and the tools. He can still figure it out but right now there's a ton wrong with his approach, timing, and pitch recognition. A lot to work on for sure.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Jays definitely traded the wrong catcher, but whatever.

I'm honestly still fine with Varsho, as mentioned earlier his defensive stats are solid.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Jays definitely traded the wrong catcher, but whatever.

I'm honestly still fine with Varsho, as mentioned earlier his defensive stats are solid.

Yup. Should have traded Kirk while his value was sky high coming off a great season. If he isn't hitting then it's a problem. Dude flat out cannot run so when he gets on the bases it's impossible for him to score other than if it's a base hit and he's at 3rd.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Yup. Should have traded Kirk while his value was sky high coming off a great season. If he isn't hitting then it's a problem. Dude flat out cannot run so when he gets on the bases it's impossible for him to score other than if it's a base hit and he's at 3rd.

Even then I'd say it's a gamble. Dude is slow as molasses out there.

What's even funnier is that Varsho's got history at catcher but the Jays seem unwilling/unable to ever throw him back there, even now with Jansen done for the season.

Putting their faith in the Kirk/Heineman combo I guess.

 

[Neutrinos]

Varsho over his last 10 games (28 PA)

.083 AVG, .214 OBP, 0 RBI

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Even then I'd say it's a gamble. Dude is slow as molasses out there.

What's even funnier is that Varsho's got history at catcher but the Jays seem unwilling/unable to ever throw him back there, even now with Jansen done for the season.

Putting their faith in the Kirk/Heineman combo I guess.

Yes…. This is another thing I don’t understand. I thought getting Varsho, a big point of it was ‘well, we’re not really losing a catcher because Varsho can do that as well.’ Seems strange to give up big assets to get this guy based on his ‘unicorn positionality’ and then stick him only in LF but nothing the Jays do makes sense these days