Points are very much luck driven, using points as a measuring stick for "driving a line" is silly. Plus, 5v5 Nylander had more points (and the same amount of primary points as Marner had points) than Marner, so....? Driving lines has a lot more to do with shot shares as they're still easily the most predictive measure. Nylander creates more shots for both himself and his linemates.
You're right in saying that points alone don't tell you who is the 'driver' on a line... However a 'driver' on the line would be able to rack up (many) points regardless who their linemates are.
Nylander hasn't shown he can consistently produce with Matthews off of his line.
Matthews has consistently produced without Nylander (With Brown last season)
Marner has consistent produced on a few different types of lines...
Can you provide a resource showing that 'Nylander creates more shots for both himself and his linemates'?
If Nylander kept the same PPG that he did with Matthews for the 62 games they played together over the 20 game stretch he missed, he would have ended up with 5 more points on the season. Hardly an "inability" to produce without Matthews.
Huh? You've basically just confirmed my premise with this post. You essentially just conceded that Nylander would get 20 less points if he didn't play with Matthews....
45 point production isn't anything special...
Less effective at scoring, sure. But his shot shares actually improved with the easier competition. Unsurprising from a guy that has the ability to carry lines.
Can you elaborate on this 'shot shares' stuff you're discussing?
You don't realize how comp stats work if you don't believe Marner was sheltered in comparison. Best player means that Nylander is always matching up against the other team's top comp. Kadri has always taken on the other teams stars, and Marner has faced other team's 3rd lines while starting a ridiculous amount in the offensive zone.
Marner produced at a 94 point pace facing other teams' top lines (with Kadri)... this is a fact. Matthews' line faced other teams top checking lines... both extremely challenging in their own right, and I don't think its widely known in the analytical community what is tougher... Quality of Teammates and Quality of Competition no doubt influence the ability for a player to produce... but is QoC higher when a top line plays a checking line, or another top line?
He was a ppg for the last 53 games of the regular season. That's starting from the game on December 9th.
People like to blame JVR and Bozak just to make excuses for greatest thing ever Marner, but maybe that line was struggling because of Marner?
I get he can do no wrong, but Bozak and JVR were being hurt by Marner, so Babcock had to switch them up. Didnt Bozak go a few months without being on the ice for a GA, funny its when Brown replaced wonder kid Mitch.
Was Marner the problem?
I don't think anyone is 'blaming JVR and Bozak' for anything... but you have to acknowledge that Matthews is a better player than JVR and Bozak... Typically playing with better linemates will help your point production... However that IS a rule of thumb, and you cannot deny the importance of chemistry. JVR-Bozie-Marner line clearly lost their chemistry last season.
Marner before being switched to Kadri's line
Games: 49
Points: 32
PPG: 0.65
Marner after being to switched to Kadri's line
Games: 33
Points: 37
PPG: 1.12
Proves Marner just wasnt playing well before the change, and also wasnt a PPG player on Bozak's line.
Stop making excuses for Marner, he wasnt good before and then stepped up his game.
Noone is making excuses for Marner... my stance is that Marner stepped up his game for a large portion of the season to a level that we haven't seen Nylander play at yet.
I wasn't trying to actively avoid playoff stats, that's just the longest period of time that he was a ppg in the season. Just saying some of that time must have included him still being on Bozak's and JVR's line.
Well of course. You did a good job earlier showing how he had 62 points in the final 60 games of the season.... He produced at a 94 point pace with Kadri... That means, he producing at about a 60 point pace with Bozak and JVR in the 20 games prior to the line switch...
60 point pace with JVR/Bozak IS decent production, but he was producing at a 94 point pace with Kadri
Yeah, I have already pointed out the for Bozak and JVR their GF/60 went up without Marner and their GA/60 went down with down without Marner.
People talk about the change with Marner in his last 33 games of the regular season when he was with Kadri, but JVR had as many 5v5 points in those final 33 games (when no longer playing with Marner) as he did in the first 49 (when usually playing with Marner).
There is no evidence that Marner was being held back by JVR and Bozak.
Nobody is saying Marner was being held back from JVR/Bozak. They're saying he had less QoT than Nylander.