Top 4 Overrated on Flyers

[DrinkFightFlyers]

You must not watch a lot of hockey outside of the Flyers if you'd take Schenn over any of Methot, A. Greene, Gunnarsson, K. Klein, B. Jackman, Alzner, Hainsey, Sekera or Polak, especially when you consider that they all make less money than him. That's homer at its finest right there.

The only guy on that list that I would take over Schenn is Polak. The rest are on the same level or are close but a fair amount older. Alzner is on a better deal and probably the closest in terms of value to Schenn, so I suppose I would take him based solely on his contract, but Alzner being on a better deal doesn't make Schenn overrated (or overpaid). The opposite argument (that Alsner is underpaid/underrated) is equally viable.

If he took a three year deal on his second contract, it would have ended this offseason. You think he gets anywhere close to 3.6 million dollars from the Flyers based on his play since being traded to Philadelphia? Maybe, and I stress maybe, if he repeated his season from two years ago, but he wouldn't when you take into account his dumpster fire season this year.

It all depends on what that second deal was and what his RFA status is. If he's an RFA still, perhaps he doesn't get $3.6 million, but I don't think he gets less than $2.5 million. If he's a UFA he easily gets $3.6 million.

His 3.6 million dollar cap hit is based on the player that he is right now. And currently, he's not worth even close to that hit. There are dozens of NHL defensemen that are better than him and on even lower cap hits. He's overpaid for what he is. And what makes him overrated is that some people still think he's future top four defenseman. That somehow he still has a lot of room to grow. When in reality, he's a 24 year with 400+ games of professional experience, and he's the same player he was as a 19 year old in Toronto. The flaws are still there and he hasn't shown any ability to correct them.

I suppose we'll see. I see no reason why he can't play the same way he played during the lockout or in Toronto, but I guess since he's 24 and played 400 games, that's just not happening. Not going to improve, not going to have a rebound season. Not worth the caphit.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Sorry to keep loading posts.

I guess basically what I am asking is how do you define if someone is overpaid? Do you go by what they signed for at what the market was then? If so, then yes I agree Luke is brutall overpaid. But I am saying if you look at currently, maybe Schenn isn't as overpaid as you think.

The guys you listed above I would argue are underpaid. Alzner is a very good defenseman. Sekera I think is very underpaid and was underpaid due to people not having a firm grasp on his skill. Just my opinion, but I think he was kind of under wraps in Buffalo since everything had gone to **** there. Similar with Klein in Nashville. Andy Greene is just all around underappreciated. These guys are all better than Schenn and that's not what I am arguing.

 

[flyershockey]

The only guy on that list that I would take over Schenn is Polak. The rest are on the same level or are close but a fair amount older. Alzner is on a better deal and probably the closest in terms of value to Schenn, so I suppose I would take him based solely on his contract, but Alzner being on a better deal doesn't make Schenn overrated (or overpaid). The opposite argument (that Alsner is underpaid/underrated) is equally viable.

This right here is why he's overrated. You're out of your mind if you'd only take Polak from that list over Schenn. Half those guys play on their team's top pair, and the rest are all comfortably top four defensemen.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Sorry to keep loading posts.

I guess basically what I am asking is how do you define if someone is overpaid? Do you go by what they signed for at what the market was then? If so, then yes I agree Luke is brutall overpaid. But I am saying if you look at currently, maybe Schenn isn't as overpaid as you think.

The guys you listed above I would argue are underpaid. Alzner is a very good defenseman. Sekera I think is very underpaid and was underpaid due to people not having a firm grasp on his skill. Just my opinion, but I think he was kind of under wraps in Buffalo since everything had gone to **** there. Similar with Klein in Nashville. Andy Greene is just all around underappreciated. These guys are all better than Schenn and that's not what I am arguing.

I think there is a difference between being overpaid and being overrated. Being overrated is people saying a guy is better than he really is. Being overpaid is just getting paid more than you are worth.

In all likelihood if you are overpaid, you aren't overrated. If people are saying Player X is overpaid, how can he possibly be overrated, unless he is actually even worse than those saying he is overpaid.

For instance, if most people are in agreement that Luke Schenn is overpaid...isn't that similar to just saying he isn't very good? And if most people are saying he isn't very good, how is he overrated?

Another example would be a guy like Danny Briere. For the most part, he wasn't worth his cap hit while here (or MTL, apparently ). But at the end of the day, Briere was still a good, valuable player. There weren't too many people saying he sucked or was overrated, just that he was overpaid. Most knew and agreed on his strengths and weaknesses and his skill level, and even that he was overpaid, but our opinion of him on the ice was fair.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Here's who's overrated.

Emery, because there are some people who think he's an acceptable backup.

this times 4...

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

This right here is why he's overrated. You're out of your mind if you'd only take Polak from that list over Schenn. Half those guys play on their team's top pair, and the rest are all comfortably top four defensemen.

Methot and Greene play similar styles to Schenn, and if they are better, it isn't by much (then factor in that they are 6-7 years older). As far as I know, neither are top-pairing guys. Gunnarsson same thing, except he's not that much older. Klein you'd take over Schenn? No thanks on that. He's not a bad defenseman by any means, he's just an older version of Schenn. Jackman? He's nearly ten years older than Schenn and I'd say not as good. He also plays on one of, if not THE best defensive teams in the league. Put Schenn on the Blues and no way you ever consider taking Barret Jackman over Luke Schenn. Alzner I said I'd probably take based solely on his contract, but that isn't because Schenn is overpaid...it's because Alzner is underpaid. Hainsey is another older guy that is on the same level or slightly better. Again, doesn't mean Schenn is overpaid, I'd say Hainsey is on a better deal for sure, but that doesn't make Schenn overpaid. Sekera is another underpaid defenseman, and I suppose you can add him to the list of players that I'd take over Schenn, though if given the choice I'm not sure I'd make that trade.

 

[FlyersFanz]

I dont see how Simmonds is overrated...

I second that...he's a strong power forward who isn't afraid to go to the net. Simmer has quick hands(leads to goals), crashes the net and wins board battles...what more do you want?

 

[flyershockey]

Methot and Greene play similar styles to Schenn, and if they are better, it isn't by much (then factor in that they are 6-7 years older). As far as I know, neither are top-pairing guys. Gunnarsson same thing, except he's not that much older. Klein you'd take over Schenn? No thanks on that. He's not a bad defenseman by any means, he's just an older version of Schenn. Jackman? He's nearly ten years older than Schenn and I'd say not as good. He also plays on one of, if not THE best defensive teams in the league. Put Schenn on the Blues and no way you ever consider taking Barret Jackman over Luke Schenn. Alzner I said I'd probably take based solely on his contract, but that isn't because Schenn is overpaid...it's because Alzner is underpaid. Hainsey is another older guy that is on the same level or slightly better. Again, doesn't mean Schenn is overpaid, I'd say Hainsey is on a better deal for sure, but that doesn't make Schenn overpaid. Sekera is another underpaid defenseman, and I suppose you can add him to the list of players that I'd take over Schenn, though if given the choice I'm not sure I'd make that trade.

Andy Greene is the number one defenseman on the Devils. It's not a close comparison in either playing style of results. Greene is a much better skater and has much more offense to his game. Methot is a much more mobile version of Schenn. He plays with Karlsson on Ottawa's top pair.

Almost every guy on the list is mainly a stay at home guy (outside of Sekera who's very good in his own zone). That's why I picked them to make the comparison. They're all better at that role than Schenn and play in larger roles for their teams while making less money. If that doesn't mean Schenn is overpaid, then I don't know what it's going to take to convince you of it.

Again, I don't care about the age nearly as much as you because Schenn isn't getting much better than he already is.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Does he bring others down? Honest question. I thought Luke looked fine with Kimmo, fine with Gus, fine with MacD, and surprisingly amazing with the AHL squad at the end of '12-'13. He always does a good job when he's paired with someone who has average mobility and good positioning. He also seems to thrive with greater minutes and responsibility. If he's knocking Kimmo, MacD, Gus, or even Mezz down a peg, please show me that info.

I think Luke is one of the guys that gets a reverse overrating. He has obvious holes in his game, but when someone defends him a bit, he's overrated. I've seen fans of other teams(not Leafs fans) absolutely trash Luke and claim their team's second rate prospect to be significantly more talented. Luke has been amongst the league leaders in a couple non-sensational stats for a while now. He's one of the best hitters in the league, and he's one of the best shot blockers in the league--that's not overrating--that's a fact.

I disagree about Luke being one of the best shot blockers in the league.

Yeah, he blocks shots at a decent clip. 74th in the NHL last season in quantity. But on many occasions I've also seen him block the goalie's line of sight and then hesitate/not fully commit and not block the shot, leading to goals or good chances.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Andy Greene is the number one defenseman on the Devils. It's not a close comparison in either playing style of results. Greene is a much better skater and has much more offense to his game. Methot is a much more mobile version of Schenn. He plays with Karlsson on Ottawa's top pair.

Almost every guy on the list is mainly a stay at home guy (outside of Sekera who's very good in his own zone). That's why I picked them to make the comparison. They're all better at that role than Schenn and play in larger roles for their teams while making less money. If that doesn't mean Schenn is overpaid, then I don't know what it's going to take to convince you of it.

Again, I don't care about the age nearly as much as you because Schenn isn't getting much better than he already is.

You can have Andy Greene. I'll take Schenn.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The only guy on that list that I would take over Schenn is Polak. The rest are on the same level or are close but a fair amount older. Alzner is on a better deal and probably the closest in terms of value to Schenn, so I suppose I would take him based solely on his contract, but Alzner being on a better deal doesn't make Schenn overrated (or overpaid). The opposite argument (that Alsner is underpaid/underrated) is equally viable.



It all depends on what that second deal was and what his RFA status is. If he's an RFA still, perhaps he doesn't get $3.6 million, but I don't think he gets less than $2.5 million. If he's a UFA he easily gets $3.6 million.



I suppose we'll see. I see no reason why he can't play the same way he played during the lockout or in Toronto, but I guess since he's 24 and played 400 games, that's just not happening. Not going to improve, not going to have a rebound season. Not worth the caphit.

Alzner is not only on a better deal, he's very clearly better than Schenn.

 

[flyershockey]

You can have Andy Greene. I'll take Schenn.

I think you're just about the only person in the world with more than just a basic understanding of the game that feels that way.

 

[Hockeypete49]

That's three players.

Yep, stupid like this stinking thread.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Alzner is not only on a better deal, he's very clearly better than Schenn.

Does it speak more to Alzner being underpaid or Schenn being overpaid? I think it's the former but in the end, what's the difference?

 

[FLYguy3911]

You can have Andy Greene. I'll take Schenn.

You're nuts.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Alzner is not only on a better deal, he's very clearly better than Schenn.

Fair enough. I said I'd take him based on contract alone (i.e., Alzner is underpaid), but fine, he's better too. So add him to the list.

I think you're just about the only person in the world with more than just a basic understanding of the game that feels that way.

You're nuts.

Well, I guess I'm on the outside looking in then.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Well, I guess I'm on the outside looking in then.

Wouldn't expect anything else from you

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Wouldn't expect anything else from you

 

[Schmidty324]

You can have Andy Greene. I'll take Schenn.

But, Why?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

ok, thats a quality photochop.. hahahaha

 

[BillyShoe1721]

For all of you who say Simmonds is horrible 5 on 5, you do know he scored a little over half of his goals at ES, right?

and since when does he lose board battles? You're just making up ****.

He scored less than half his goals at ES. Look at the top 30 goalscorers in the NHL last year, and Simmonds had the highest percentage of goals come on the power play out of all of them.

 

[sobrien]

Not sure about overrated, but I think Read and Simmonds are overvalued by Flyers fans. Personally I overvalue Luke Schenn given what his advanced stats say (although I swear by the eye test).


And I'll go with Kimmo. I'm sincerely happy he took a nice pay cut this year to stay, because he's far from the same and his foot speed becomes a detriment to him at least once per game.

Read
Simmonds
Kimmo
L. Schenn by myself

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

He scored less than half his goals at ES. Look at the top 30 goalscorers in the NHL last year, and Simmonds had the highest percentage of goals come on the power play out of all of them.

You're right. I mixed up his ES and PP goals. Still, he had only one more PP goal than ES goal. 14 ES goals is still not bad

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not sure about overrated, but I think Read and Simmonds are overvalued by Flyers fans. Personally I overvalue Luke Schenn given what his advanced stats say (although I swear by the eye test).


And I'll go with Kimmo. I'm sincerely happy he took a nice pay cut this year to stay, because he's far from the same and his foot speed becomes a detriment to him at least once per game.

Read
Simmonds
Kimmo
L. Schenn by myself

You. Me. 10 paces in the street at noon tomorrow.

 

[sobrien]

You. Me. 10 paces in the street at noon tomorrow.

Is that EST or CST?


Nevermind it, I'll be there for both.