Top 4 Overrated on Flyers

[Ghosts Beer]

You're talking as if having bad linemates can't effect other peoples play. I'm not saying Schenn is infallible and Mezsaros was the only thing stopping him from being an amazing player, but the fact is that Schenn's flaws weren't even close to as noticeable, and I'd even say he played well, when he had pretty much anyone else as a partner. He doesn't need any certain player to be paired with him to do his job, but if you put a player next to him who actively makes his job much harder then it's not unreasonable to think it'll be tougher for him to do his job.

If we put Rinaldo and Rosehill on Girouxs wings and Giroux produces far less would it mean that Giroux is a poor player because needs a certain type of player on his line to do his job? No, because playing with bad people makes players look worse than they are, so just give that player a chance to do his job by not anchoring him with dead weight. That's not putting the blame at others, it's looking at the context of the situation and taking everything into account when making an evaluation.

I realize this post wasn't directed specifically at me. But If you put Giroux with Rosehill, Giroux's production would suffer, but he'd make Rosehill better.

Does Luke Schenn make anyone better? He's the Rosehill. Others can make him better, but he drags others down.

 

[kyuss]

I realize this post wasn't directed specifically at me. But If you put Giroux with Rosehill, Giroux's production would suffer, but he'd make Rosehill better.

Does Luke Schenn make anyone better? He's the Rosehill. Others can make him better, but he drags others down.

Does he bring others down? Honest question. I thought Luke looked fine with Kimmo, fine with Gus, fine with MacD, and surprisingly amazing with the AHL squad at the end of '12-'13. He always does a good job when he's paired with someone who has average mobility and good positioning. He also seems to thrive with greater minutes and responsibility. If he's knocking Kimmo, MacD, Gus, or even Mezz down a peg, please show me that info.

I think Luke is one of the guys that gets a reverse overrating. He has obvious holes in his game, but when someone defends him a bit, he's overrated. I've seen fans of other teams(not Leafs fans) absolutely trash Luke and claim their team's second rate prospect to be significantly more talented. Luke has been amongst the league leaders in a couple non-sensational stats for a while now. He's one of the best hitters in the league, and he's one of the best shot blockers in the league--that's not overrating--that's a fact.

 

[dats81]

in no particular order:

L. Schenn : as long as a single person believes that he is worth the money he is signed for, he must be overrated

Timonen: is a 3rd pairing even strength defenseman at this point of his career

Laughton: overhyped due to his success as an overager in Juniors. his offensive game will not transition well to the NHL

Brayden Schenn: little hockey sense which is why he does not have the potential to be a real impact player everybody is hoping for


on a side note: overrated does not mean a player is useless or doesn't belong on this team!

 

[martz11]

I dont see how Simmonds is overrated...

He's not. He lead our team in freaking goals. I don't care how he gets them wether it's pp, 5 on 5 or sh. To even have his name brought up in discussion is absurd at best.

 

[JustJim]

The most overrated player was recently traded

Hartnell was tremendously overrated as a player. He had a great public service relationship, that's why he was a fan favourite, but he was ***** on the ice.
The other overrated people on the Flyers are Paul Holmgren, ( he was a goon player in uniform, and made some of the worst moves as their GM), Bob Clarke ( not the player who was then known as Bobby), but the GM. Bob Clarke was also a crappy GM.
The most overrated person within the Flyers organization is Ed Snider! He is the Jerry Jones of hockey. I wish he'd sell his shares of the organization and just stay out in California where he lives.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Typically the guys I notice as being overrated are fringe prospects. Most of the fully time NHLers are pretty accurately rated. Gus I think was overrated but he's no longer here. Then you have the guys playing on the Phantoms that people clamor about from time to time. But in terms of NHL players, I don't think there is anyone that people gush over too much. Giroux is an elite forward, no real argument against that. Couturier is a valuable defensive forward (though I suppose some might say his defense is overrated around here, though I don't think it is). Other than that, there really isn't anyone that gets talked about as being anything more than just "good." Maybe Voracek? I guess Voracek is probably the most overrated, but even he isn't too bad.

 

[Striiker]

I realize this post wasn't directed specifically at me. But If you put Giroux with Rosehill, Giroux's production would suffer, but he'd make Rosehill better.

Does Luke Schenn make anyone better? He's the Rosehill. Others can make him better, but he drags others down.

He's neither Giroux nor Rosehill. That was just an example to illustrate my point about linemates making others look worse, like Rosehill would to Giroux and Mez did to Schenn.

I also don't think he made anyone else look worse like Rosehill would, he was good with Timonen and didn't drag him down, he obviously didn't make Gus look worse (if anything he made him look better than he really is), and he didn't make MacD look worse.

 

[flyershockey]

Receiving praise doesn't make you overrated. I can't believe I saw people posting Giroux's name anywhere in this thread. I guess some posters missed him dragging an average roster to the playoffs last year?

I guess my answer would be Luke Schenn. There's not really anything he does at a definitively higher level than Grossmann, but he's still somehow always regarded as a potential top four defenseman while Grossmann should be traded for a late round pick.

 

[Striiker]

Receiving praise doesn't make you overrated. I can't believe I saw people posting Giroux's name anywhere in this thread. I guess some posters missed him dragging an average roster to the playoffs last year?

I guess my answer would be Luke Schenn. There's not really anything he does at a definitively higher level than Grossmann, but he's still somehow always regarded as a potential top four defenseman while Grossmann should be traded for a late round pick.

I'm not trying to say Schenn is some great defender, but I certainly think he's easily a better skater, passer, and shooter than Grossmann..

 

[Protest]

Nodl
Pyorala
Kukkonen
Thoresen

 

[flyershockey]

I'm not trying to say Schenn is some great defender, but I certainly think he's easily a better skater, passer, and shooter than Grossmann..

Yeah, I'm not going to get into another Luke Schenn debate, but that's pushing it to say the least. If he really does have a much better skill set, he sure doesn't show it very often. I wouldn't hesistate for a second to trade them both.

 

[Striiker]

Yeah, I'm not going to get into another Luke Schenn debate, but that's pushing it to say the least. If he really does have a much better skill set, he sure doesn't show it very often. I wouldn't hesistate for a second to trade them both.

Yeah, especially with how many defensive prospects are close to pushing for a spot. Sooner or later we're gonna need to make room for them, hopefully Grossmann is the first to go though.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Nodl
Pyorala
Kukkonen
Thoresen

Oh if we are doing throw backs lets go with Hyka, Manning, Holmstrom, Testwuide, and Upshall. Hyka, Manning, Holmstrom and Testwuide were all penciled in to the NHL at one point or another; Upshall wasn't really overrated while he was here, but once he was traded became pretty overrated, I know the pick had a lot to do with it, but there was plenty of complaining about Upshall the player to go along with the second round pick.

 

[dats81]

I'm not trying to say Schenn is some great defender, but I certainly think he's easily a better skater, passer, and shooter than Grossmann..

If L. Schenn was paid like the bottom pairing defenseman that he actually is, expectations would be lower and people would not freak out over every single bad play of his. 24 year old former 5th overall pick that went straight to the NHL and carries a 3.6M cap hit - rushed by the team that drafted him, signed to a crazy contract too early, traded for a first line power forward and the list goes on. Overrated by so many people and first and foremost overrated by Executive Management.

 

[BernieParent]

What the hell did you just say?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

in no particular order:

L. Schenn : as long as a single person believes that he is worth the money he is signed for, he must be overrated

I think Luke Schenn is fairly rated. For one thing, most people on here are not fond of him at all. He didn't have a great year last year, but the year before that he was one of our better defenders. No one thinks he's anything more than a solid defensive defenseman, which is how he is paid. I pose this question about numerous players, but what should Luke Schenn be making?

Timonen: is a 3rd pairing even strength defenseman at this point of his career

I think you are wrong on that. He's a second pairing/PP defenseman. He's nowhere near a top pairing guy, but he's good enough to play PP minutes and 2nd pair minutes.

Laughton: overhyped due to his success as an overager in Juniors. his offensive game will not transition well to the NHL

This is another guy I don't see people overhyping. Most people have him penciled in as a 4th liner next year and a third line defensive center. I haven't seen anyone really talk about him being a good offensive player outside of maybe a couple random posts here there.

Brayden Schenn: little hockey sense which is why he does not have the potential to be a real impact player everybody is hoping for

Schenn is underrated. The kid put up good numbers for the amount of minutes he played and his linemates, is still sub 25 (23, I think?), and still getting better. He may never be a PPG defensive stallwart like people thought when he was drafted/acquired, but I think most people realize that by now, and most people have either given up on him entirely or have realized he's going to be a 50-60 point second liner. I don't know too many people out there who think he's going to do more than that (and its silly to say that is overrating him unless you think he has topped out as a player already).

on a side note: overrated does not mean a player is useless or doesn't belong on this team!

That I agree with!

 

[Protest]

Oh if we are doing throw backs lets go with Hyka, Manning, Holmstrom, Testwuide, and Upshall. Hyka, Manning, Holmstrom and Testwuide were all penciled in to the NHL at one point or another; Upshall wasn't really overrated while he was here, but once he was traded became pretty overrated, I know the pick had a lot to do with it, but there was plenty of complaining about Upshall the player to go along with the second round pick.

Lol yea, but it was the whole situation. Upshall + 2nd for Carcillo...that's just The fact that it was a cap forced move didn't help.

 

[flyershockey]

I think Luke Schenn is fairly rated. For one thing, most people on here are not fond of him at all. He didn't have a great year last year, but the year before that he was one of our better defenders. No one thinks he's anything more than a solid defensive defenseman, which is how he is paid. I pose this question about numerous players, but what should Luke Schenn be making?

According to Capgeek, his cap hit comparables are: Brad Stuart, Ohlund, Fayne, Souray, Smid, Beauchemin, Grossmann, B. Allen, E. Johnson, Oduya, Scuderi, Boychuck, Hamonic, Brewer, Liles, Gorges, Daley, Hejda, Ferrence.

How many of those guys would you take Schenn over? Maybe Liles, Souray, Grossmann and Scuderi?

Schenn also makes more money than guys like Methot, A. Greene, Gunnarsson, K. Klein, B. Jackman, Alzner, Hainsey, Sekera, and Polak.

Schenn is overpaid by about 1.5-2 million, imo. Matt Greene is a better version of Luke Schenn, and he's only carrying a 2.5 million dollar cap hit.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Lol yea, but it was the whole situation. Upshall + 2nd for Carcillo...that's just The fact that it was a cap forced move didn't help.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I never claimed the trade was a good trade, but the outrage about the pick AND the outrage about Upshall were both pretty prevalent.

According to Capgeek, his cap hit comparables are: Brad Stuart, Ohlund, Fayne, Souray, Smid, Beauchemin, Grossmann, B. Allen, E. Johnson, Oduya, Scuderi, Boychuck, Hamonic, Brewer, Liles, Gorges, Daley, Hejda, Ferrence.

How many of those guys would you take Schenn over? Maybe Liles, Souray, Grossmann and Scuderi?

Those look like pretty fair comparables (I'd take a lot of those guys over Schenn, actually, but that doesn't mean he is overpaid/overrated, there are players on that list that could easily be making more without people batting an eye).

Schenn also makes more money than guys like Methot, A. Greene, Gunnarsson, K. Klein, B. Jackman, Alzner, Hainsey, Sekera, and Polak.

Schenn is better than most, if not all, of those guys (younger too).

Schenn is overpaid by about 1.5-2 million, imo. Matt Greene is a better version of Luke Schenn, and he's only carrying a 2.5 million dollar cap hit.

He is over paid by 1.5-2 million? His first contract was for $875k. He signed one other contract and his cap hit is $3.6 million. He should be making $1.6 million to $2.1 million instead of $3.6 million. You think that if he signed a 2-3 year deal, he'd be making between $1.6 and $2 million? His contract likely would have ended after the lockout season, where he had arguably his best year and was arguably the best defender on the Flyers. He'd be on contract number three right now. Perhaps the figure you propose would have made sense when he first signed that deal, and I think you are right about that. But for what he brings, his age, and his trajectory, he is absolutely making the "correct" amount of money.

ELC - $875k
1st RFA - $1.6-$2.1 million
Current Contract - $3.6 million

He just cut out the first RFA deal essentially.

 

[flyershockey]

Those look like pretty fair comparables (I'd take a lot of those guys over Schenn, actually, but that doesn't mean he is overpaid/overrated, there are players on that list that could easily be making more without people batting an eye).



Schenn is better than most, if not all, of those guys (younger too).



He is over paid by 1.5-2 million? His first contract was for $875k. He signed one other contract and his cap hit is $3.6 million. He should be making $1.6 million to $2.1 million instead of $3.6 million. You think that if he signed a 2-3 year deal, he'd be making between $1.6 and $2 million? His contract likely would have ended after the lockout season, where he had arguably his best year and was arguably the best defender on the Flyers. He'd be on contract number three right now. Perhaps the figure you propose would have made sense when he first signed that deal, and I think you are right about that. But for what he brings, his age, and his trajectory, he is absolutely making the "correct" amount of money.

ELC - $875k
1st RFA - $1.6-$2.1 million
Current Contract - $3.6 million

He just cut out the first RFA deal essentially.

You must not watch a lot of hockey outside of the Flyers if you'd take Schenn over any of Methot, A. Greene, Gunnarsson, K. Klein, B. Jackman, Alzner, Hainsey, Sekera or Polak, especially when you consider that they all make less money than him. That's homer at its finest right there.

If he took a three year deal on his second contract, it would have ended this offseason. You think he gets anywhere close to 3.6 million dollars from the Flyers based on his play since being traded to Philadelphia? Maybe, and I stress maybe, if he repeated his season from two years ago, but he wouldn't when you take into account his dumpster fire season this year.

His 3.6 million dollar cap hit is based on the player that he is right now. And currently, he's not worth even close to that hit. There are dozens of NHL defensemen that are better than him and on even lower cap hits. He's overpaid for what he is. And what makes him overrated is that some people still think he's future top four defenseman. That somehow he still has a lot of room to grow. When in reality, he's a 24 year with 400+ games of professional experience, and he's the same player he was as a 19 year old in Toronto. The flaws are still there and he hasn't shown any ability to correct them.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

You must not watch a lot of hockey outside of the Flyers if you'd take Schenn over any of Methot, A. Greene, Gunnarsson, K. Klein, B. Jackman, Alzner, Hainsey, Sekera or Polak, especially when you consider that they all make less money than him. That's homer at its finest right there.

If he took a three year deal on his second contract, it would have ended this offseason. You think he gets anywhere close to 3.6 million dollars from the Flyers based on his play since being traded to Philadelphia? Maybe, and I stress maybe, if he repeated his season from two years ago, but he wouldn't when you take into account his dumpster fire season this year.

His 3.6 million dollar cap hit is based on the player that he is right now. And currently, he's not worth even close to that hit. There are dozens of NHL defensemen that are better than him and on even lower cap hits. He's overpaid for what he is. And what makes him overrated is that some people still think he's future top four defenseman. That somehow he still has a lot of room to grow. When in reality, he's a 24 year with 400+ games of professional experience, and he's the same player he was as a 19 year old in Toronto. The flaws are still there and he hasn't shown any ability to correct them.

This year? I honestly think he could've garnered 3.6. Have you seen how inflated Dman costs are? Deryk Engelland just got 2.9m per year and is an absolute plug/defenseman version of Jay Rosehill. Factor in his age and the fact that he is not Deryk Engelland, and yes. 3.6

 

[flyershockey]

This year? I honestly think he could've garnered 3.6. Have you seen how inflated Dman costs are? Deryk Engelland just got 2.9m per year and is an absolute plug/defenseman version of Jay Rosehill. Factor in his age and the fact that he is not Deryk Engelland, and yes. 3.6

So one of the worst contracts signed in the offseason in now the base for comparison? It doesn't help Schenn's case that his comparsion is Engelland's deal, a contract that was hellacious from the moment it was signed. Also, that whole UFA v. RFA argument comes into play.

What about Alzner at 2.8? Sekera at 2.75? Klein at 2.9? Gunnarsson at 2.9? A. Greene at 3? Hell even Cowen at 3.1 looks like a deal in comparison. There are plenty of more options to suggest that Luke is brutally overpaid.

 

[dats81]

This year? I honestly think he could've garnered 3.6. Have you seen how inflated Dman costs are? Deryk Engelland just got 2.9m per year and is an absolute plug/defenseman version of Jay Rosehill. Factor in his age and the fact that he is not Deryk Engelland, and yes. 3.6

Maybe. But that's not the question!

The question is what would be appropriate for a 24year old defensive D with limited puck handling skills who plays < 17minutes per game on a team with an average at best defense?
If we pay him 3.6M per season now what is he supposed to get in two years when his contract is up? 5M+?

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

So one of the worst contracts signed in the offseason in now the base for comparison? It doesn't help Schenn's case that his comparsion is Engelland's deal, a contract that was hellacious from the moment it was signed. Also, that whole UFA v. RFA argument comes into play.

What about Alzner at 2.8? Sekera at 2.75? Klein at 2.9? Gunnarsson at 2.9? A. Greene at 3? Hell even Cowen at 3.1 looks like a deal in comparison. There are plenty of more options to suggest that Luke is brutally overpaid.

I'm not saying he's not overpaid, but using Engelland as a baseline to show how much defensemen contracts have inflated is not me comparing Luke Schenn to Deryk Engelland. Kyle Quincey got 4.25 and he's been brutal as well. It's just me picking a defenseman who is overpaid and saying that Schenn could very well have gotten overpaid as well.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Maybe. But that's not the question!

The question is what would be appropriate for a 24year old defensive D with limited puck handling skills who plays < 17minutes per game on a team with an average at best defense?
If we pay him 3.6M per season now what is he supposed to get in two years when his contract is up? 5M+?

Not everyone is due a big raise when their contracts are up. He'd probably get similar money but I doubt a paycut.