Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17

[blogofmike]

If this is the case, when why didn't Brodeur win another cup after Scott Stevens retired? Why didn't Lemaire win another cup without Stevens? It's because Stevens was the catalyst.

Also the LA Kings had what seemed like a 5000 minute powerplay in the deciding game of the Finals in 2012.

 

[wetcoast]

Lemaire won 8 SCs as a player, others in management with the Canadiens and Devils.

Stevens never went to the SC finals without Brodeur while Brodeur did so without Stevens.

This and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at starbucks as none of this really goes to how good each player was as an individual.

It also is a reminder of how much harder it is to win a SC in a 30 team league than a smaller one.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To expand on the discussion about Boris Mikhailov, I´ve decided to share my view of the player. Mikhailov can be a difficult player to assess his value, as he can be easily underrated but also overrated depending on which measure you choose to look at.

He can be underrated if you primarily look at individual WHC awards. Mikhailov, whose international career lasted 12 seasons (1969-1980), has only 2 tournaments, where his play was officially honoured. Although in both cases (WHC 73, WHC 79), Mikhailov was not only an All-Star RW but also Directoriate´s choice for the best forward of the championship. The problem remains in that Mikhailov was usually not considered the best European RW, let alone the best forward or skater. Here´s the list of RWers who were voted into All-Star team instead of Mikhailov:

1969 Nedomansky, 1970 Maltsev, 1971 Vikulov, 1972 Vikulov, (1973 Mikhailov), 1974 Martinec, 1975 Martinec, 1976 Martinec, 1977 Martinec, 1978 Maltsev, (1979 Mikhailov), 1980 no AST voted, although the most likely choice for best RW from Lake Placid Olympics would either be whatever USA RW that was deemed as best, or Sergei Makarov…

So that´s the main thing that Mikhailov “detractors” can use against him in my opinion. What business will Mikhailov even have in the all-time top 100 list if he rarely was the best at his position, let alone the best at forward or skater position in a given season?

Now the positive way to look at Mikhailov´s achievements, and possibly to overrate him, is to look at amazing consistency with regards to his offensive production. If your primary method to determine value of non-NHL European forwards is to look at the scoring tables, you will be impressed by finding out Mikhailov near the top almost regularly. Here´s the list of Mikhailov scoring finishes:

WHC 69 – 14 points in 9 games, 2nd in scoring
WHC 70 – 10 points in 10 games, 7th-8th in scoring
WHC 71 – 10 points in 9 games, 5th in scoring
OG 72 – 2 points in 3 games, well outside top 10 in scoring and approximately 10th in his own team
WHC 72 - 13 points in 10 games, 9th in scoring
SS 72 – 7 points in 8 games based on Richard Bendell´s recount, 6th in overall scoring, 3rd in his own team
WHC 73 - 29 points in 10 games, 2nd in scoring
WHC 74 – 17 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
SS 74 – 6 points in 7 games, 8th in overall scoring, 4th in his own team
WHC 75 - 15 points in 9 games, 8th in scoring
OG 76 – 4 points in 6 games, well outside top 10 scoring and approximately 10th in his own team
WHC 76 - 13 points in 10 games, 7th in scoring
CC 76 – did not play
WHC 77 - 19 points in 10 games, 2nd in scoring
WHC 78 – 12 points in 10 games, 4th in scoring
WHC 79 – 12 points in 8 games, 5th in scoring
OG 80 – 11 points in 7 games, 6th in scoring

Amazing reliability that Mikhailov finished 14 times in top 10 scoring out of 16 opportunities. Mikhailov offensive production dropped only in two occasions – 1972 Sapporo Olympics and 1976 Innsbruck Olympics. When you, as a Soviet team, went to a major international tournament, you could have relied on Mikhailov that he´s going to be one of your team´s top scorer almost any time. I believe this kind of consistency cannot be matched by any other not-yet-discussed non-NHLer, furthermore it´s better consistency than even Firsov´ and Kharlamov´s one (in terms of longevity of sustained decade+ offensive production).
____________________

I´ll quickly outline Mikhailov career trajectory, as I see it, and I plan to suggest that his pre-Summit Series body of work does not add too much of an all-time value, but his 1973-1980 prime is what constitutes his rightful place in this discussion.

Before 1969
Mikhailov was a prototypical late-bloomer as he was born in June 1944 and started to play in the Soviet league some time in the 1st half of 1960s. He moved from Lokomotiv Moscow to CSKA Moscow in 1967 when he was 23. His 1968 season indicates that he managed the transition into elite team well, scoring 29 goals in 43 games in the League (5th in league scoring, 2nd in his own team). But he still did not make it into National team yet. Mikhailov did not play at OG 1968 and he also received no votes in SPOTY voting.

1969 until 1972
At the age of 24, Mikhailov enters into USSR team. Scores 14 points in 9 games at WHC 69 and finishes 2nd in scoring but gets no award recognition. We have AST voting data for only 5-6 forwards that received the most votes and Mikhailov was not one of them. Furthermore, we have that rare 1969 poll about best players in Europe (that was brought up during last round about Firsov) and Mikhailov again was not one of 14 players that appeared in that poll. His league performance looks to be good (slightly outscored both Kharlamov and Petrov) but decidedly below Spartak´s Yakushev and Starschinov. Spartak managed the rare feat of defeating CSKA for league title. Mikhailov was 5th in SPOTY voting, 4th among forwards, although he was named into Soviet all-star team as 1 of 3 best forwards of the 1969 season.

You can see similar pattern of good but nowhere near elite play for the following seasons. WHC 70, Mikhailov adds another top 10 scoring finish but AST voting data reveals that Mikhailov got 1 single vote which technically made him “16th best forward” of the championship. As far as 1970 League play, nothing extraordinary as Mikhailov was outscored by Petrov but he at least outscored Kharlamov to a large degree. Most importantly, Mikhailov received zero votes in SPOTY voting (13 different players including 8 forwards received at least a vote). Looks like Soviet observers thought Mikhailov´s production was dependant on his superior linemates at this point yet. Four different CSKA forwards received some voting support instead of him. Those 4 were Vikulov, Kharlamov, Firsov and Petrov. No Soviet all-star team either.

WHC 71, another top 10 scoring finish but AST voting data reveals Mikhailov got 2 single votes which technically made him “12th best forward” of the championship on this occasion, assuming one even takes these fringe votes seriously. 1971 League play – again, good but nothing extraordinary. Third in league scoring behind one teammate (Kharlamov), and behind league-leading Maltsev from Dynamo Moscow. Ultimately 9th in 1971 SPOTY voting, 6th among forwards, no Soviet all-star team appearance.

1972, Mikhailov disappoints at Olympics by scoring mere 2 points. He then compensates to some degree two months later at World Championship by adding another top 10 scoring finish. But again… no award recognition though this time Mikhailov was voted as 8th best forward according to AST voting. 1972 League play seemed a little bit worse: 6th in league scoring, but just 5th in his own team, as his teammates Kharlamov, Vikulov, Petrov and Blinov finished ahead. The scoring race was won by either Kharlamov or Vikulov who recorded 9-10 more points in the same amount of games (depends on the source). How much appreciation Soviet observers showed for Mikhailov after this season? None, Mikhailov got no votes in SPOTY voting (9 different players including 5 forwards received at least a vote), so Mikhailov could still have been technically the 10th best Soviet player and 6th best forward which would be OK but he wasn´t worth a single vote. Soviet observers clearly preferred Maltsev, Kharlamov, Vikulov, Yakushev and Firsov (top 5 vote-getters) above all other forwards. Of course, no appearance in Soviet all-star team either.

Overall it´s in my view clear that Mikhailov was AT BEST just 6th best Soviet forward during this period. Firsov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Vikulov and Starshinov delivered stronger results by almost any measure. Mikhailov still needs to be given credit for simply being a reliable and meaningful component of the Soviet machine in this time period but it´s difficult to find strong all-time value in this stretch vis-à-vis all other candidates in this round, when you´re hardly even a top 10 forward / top 20 player outside North America (counting great Czechoslovaks and Swedes from before Summit-Series-era too..).

Mikhailov´s 1973-1980 prime
Only when Mikhailov became 28 year-old man, he started to make serious impact not just on scoring lists but also in voting and awards lists as well. He´s one of the guys who definitely impressed by their play in Summit Series, when he still did not play with Kharlamov on one line. After their reunification, Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov destroys the competition at WHC 73, the ‘troika’ comfortably leads the scoring and Mikhailov himself records 29 points in 10 games, which was good enough for 2nd place scoring finish, All-Star Team RW recognition and also Directoriate´s Best Forward award, so Mikhailov was even preferred to prime Kharlamov and Petrov here. 1973 League play was in line with his previous seasons, i.e. 5th in league scoring, 3rd in his own team behind Vikulov and approximately 11 points behind Petrov. After these results, Soviet observers voted Mikhailov as 5th best Soviet, 4th among forwards, but he did make it into Soviet all-star team as 1 of 3 best forwards of the season.

WHC 74, Mikhailov seemingly continues with his higher-standard play now, as he wins the championship´s scoring with 17 points. Despite of this effort, top Czech forwards were deemed as somewhat better, Mikhailov´s rival at RW position, Vladimir Martinec leads all players in AST voting and Vaclav Nedomansky takes the Directoriate´s Best Forward award home, so Mikhailov gets no award recognition. Still, Boris was voted as 4th best forward by the writers so some appreciation was still there. Otherwise, his domestic season looks to be one of his worst. Apparently only 12th in league scoring, or at least outside of top 10 for sure, and 3rd in his own team behind Kharlamov and Vikulov. Mikhailov finished almost 20 points behind league-leading Anisin from the Soviet Wings of Moscow which even defeated Mikhailov´s CSKA team for the league title! Despite this perceived below-average league play, Mikhailov ended up 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among forwards, plus Soviet all-star team.

Mikhailov turned 30 for the following season but showed no signs of decline. 1975 season started with the 2nd Summit Series, this time with favourable result for Soviets. Mikhailov contributed with 6 points in 7 games – good enough for 8th in overall scoring of this series. WHC 75, another strong, above ppg, top 10 scoring finish and… another absence in the tournament´s All-Star team. We have no data beyond the actual 6 players who were honoured so no additional firm conclusions about Mikhailov´s performance can be made. League, Mikhailov seemingly compensates previous season´s somewhat weaker performance, as he was 2nd in league scoring just 2 points behind his linemate Petrov. At the end of the season, Mikhailov adds another 5th placement in SPOTY voting and another Soviet all-star team nod.

The career continues with notable decrease in form during ´76 season. We´re looking at Mikhailov´s clear down-season over his 73-80 prime. Registers only 4 points at OG 76 (barely 10th in his own team), then proceeds with another good-but-not-great WHC 76 performance (I feel like I´m copying myself..) – 13 points, 7th in scoring, no award recognition (no data available beyond the actual WHC All-Star team). Temporary decline is shown on a domestic level too. Although Boris finishes 7th in league scoring just behind one teammate (Petrov), CSKA loses the league title to Spartak Moscow, led this time by outstanding campaign from Shalimov and Yakushev (1st and 2nd in scoring respectively). As a result of all this, Mikhailov finds himself in trouble to even get some voting support from Soviet observers – only 10th in SPOTY voting, 8th among forwards and not named into Soviet all-star team as 1 of 3 best forwards of the season.

Results from following 1977 season indeed supports notion of Mikhailov being 3rd best Soviet of the season, as he was voted as such by Soviet observers behind Petrov and Balderis. In the League, Mikhailov ended 4th in scoring behind 2nd Petrov and also behind the league-leading Balderis from Dinamo Riga. At the WHC, Mikhailov is second to Petrov in the scoring chart (19 points to Petrov´s 21), but it is Petrov and Balderis who got honoured by the media as all-star C and LW, while Martinec is called all-star RW for fourth time in a row instead of Mikhailov. Balderis was also named as the Best Forward by Directoriate. We have no information past the 1st AST unfortunately… Something to keep in mind in terms of putting things into context is that this is no 1987 where you can reasonably infer that 3rd best Soviet = 3rd best player outside NHL. Soviets lost the Championship title for the 2nd time in row to Czechs with plenty of their players playing in their primes. Moreover, USSR this time lost to Swedes for the silver too. For the season overall, I´d prefer at least 3 Czechs and 1 Swede to Mikhailov in addition to Balderis and Petrov.

However, Mikhailov kept aging like a fine wine. 1978 is the first season where he wins the SPOTY award as he leads Soviets to victory at heated ´78 WHC in Prague. Finishes 4th in scoring, although he misses again the 1st WHC All-Star team. At least we have the 2nd AST where it´s shown that Mikhailov was a 2nd teamer to Maltsev´s 1st AST RW… I do remember about this season that Mikhailov also did well particularly at the Izvestia Cup in December where he did grab his 1st all-star nod from that short tournament. Still, some part of Mikhailov´s this year´s popularity had to originate from his league play, where he ended up 2nd in scoring just one point behind Petrov. Mikhailov is obviously member of Soviet all-star team as well, just as he was previous season.

Now we´re finally seeing what was clearly Mikhailov´s peak signature season - surprisingly when he was terribly old for all Eastern European standards of longevity. 34 years old Mikhailov is honoured as WHC 79 All-Star RW and also as the Best Forward by the Directoriate. He finishes 5th in scoring as the Soviets remarkably calmly float through the tournament to the victory without slightest setbacks. Part of the 1979 season was also Challenge Cup event, where Soviets famously beat the NHL All-Star team (2 wins vs. 1 loss) – Mikhailov with his 3+0 led his team in scoring and was also awarded with MVP of the series. In the League, Mikhailov finishes 3rd, and 2nd in his own team once again behind Petrov. At the end of the season, newly created European Golden Stick for the best player in Europe was awarded to Mikhailov – more than 500 writers from various European countries decisively preferred the Soviet captain to anybody else.

Mikhailov didn´t slow down as much for his last international 1980 season. Adds another top 10 scoring finish at OG 80, also ends up 5th in league scoring with 50 points in 41 games. It doesn´t seem that the notorious “miracle on ice” upset was put to blame on Mikhailov´s shoulders, as he was 3rd in SPOTY voting, and even more importantly 2nd in Izvestia voting for the best European player. Makarov won both of these awards but otherwise I don´t see any other player with better results than Mikhailov from this particular season among the pool of non-NHL Europeans.

Then played just 15 games during 1981 season before he called it a career. So to summarize: Mikhailov´s 1979 peak is as good as any top season from other Euro stars within roughly 1965-1990 timeframe, as he was undoubtedly thought as the best European at the time of Soviet hockey program arguably peaking. Seasons 1978 and 1980 are part of his peak as he was seemingly close enough to be in the conversation about best player outside North America. 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1977 are important part of Mikhailov´s legacy as well – he belonged to broader range of best forwards in Europe, albeit not ever necessarily the best even at his own position. 1976 is a clear down-season where he barely cracks into top 10 Soviets with his name appearing on 4 ballots out of 64 voters. Similarly, Mikhailov´s 1969-1972 early international career does add up to his legacy to the extent that being just an average piece of the puzzle of the top National team at the time is a value in and of itself.

Thanks for posting this.

To add to this: It should be noted that Vladimir Martinec is widely considered the best player on the Czecholovakian hockey team that seems to have almost been as good as the Soviet team for a brief period of time in the mid-late 1970s. (CSSR actually beat USSR more often than not, but wasn't nearly as good against other teams). IMO, Martinec should probably make our list (though I know from experience he basically has no chance). But even if he doesn't make our list, the main reason is that he lacked the longevity of a Mikhailov or a Maltsev.

Also, as the #1 star of CSSR, Martinec was probably easier to give All-Star votes to over Mikhailov, who was one of several star forwards on USSR. Since awards voters like to spread their votes among multiple teams.

Point being that being blocked from more All-Star nods at RW at the World Championships shouldn't be held against Mikhailov too much.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re :Gadsby

This has already been addressed in more detail in this thread by other posters, but an argument against Gadsby in the HOH Top Defensemen project was that bad GAAs tended to follow him from team to team, a contrast with someone like Pronger, for whom good results followed him from team to team. Of course, Pronger is long gone on our list now. And overpass's recent post about Gadsby's very high usage at ES and the PK does make him look better... And one could argue that if such a heavily used defenseman contributed more to better team defense, he'd already be on our list.

 

[blogofmike]

Agree with most of this order, although I think Stewart might be at the bottom for me and Fedorov might be 1, Hull 2 and I honestly have't really looked at the goalies.

I have come down a bit on Old Poison, but I was really high on him before. Blame @ImporterExporter :
Nels Stewart Biography: Debunking Myths

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have come down a bit on Old Poison, but I was really high on him before. Blame @ImporterExporter :
Nels Stewart Biography: Debunking Myths

As the best offensive player available this round, Stewart will be in my top 5, flaws and all. But that thread you are quoting is making a mountain out of a molehill, as we say. It does show that Stewart was a strong all-round player early in his career, but does nothing to debunk the widely held view that he was a floater for most of his career. To put it another way, all the quotes about Stewart being involved all around the ice are from before the forward pass was allowed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris Trophy records for Bill Gadsby, Borje Salming, and Brian Leetch

As usual, I am discarding results with only 1 vote (in other words, minimum 2 votes needed for me to count a ranking).

I'm also listing competition in (parenthesis) for top 5 finishes.

Bill Gadsby

53-54: 3rd (Kelly, Harvey, Gadsby, Horton, Goldham)
55-56: 2nd (Harvey, Gadsby, Kelly, Johnson, Flaman)
56-57: 4th (Harvey, Kelly, Flaman, Gadsby, Mohns)
57-58: 2nd (Harvey, Gadsby, Flaman, Stewart, Pronovost)
58-59: 2nd (Johnson, Gadsby, Pronovost, Harvey, Flaman)
59-60: 6th
60-61: 10th
62-63: 5th (Pilote, Brewer, Horton, Vasko, Gadsby)
64-65: 3rd (Pilote, Laperriere, Gadsby, Horton, Pronovost)
65-66: 11th

• Would Gadsby have won 3 Norris trophies if it weren't for prime Harvey and Kelly? That's what it looks like at first glance. But maybe not, as Harvey's injuries in 1958-59 is when Gadsby really should have won, yet Tom Johnson takes some of Harvey's PP time in Montreal and comes out of nowhere to win.
• It should be noted that Gadsby never really beat prime Kelly or Harvey in Norris voting on even terms. In 1955-56, Kelly played 1/4 of the season at forward, and actually had more Hart votes than Harvey or Kelly. But his time at forward looks to have hurt him in Norris voting. 1958-59, Harvey was hurt by injuries.

Borje Salming

73-74: 5th (Orr, Park, White, Ashbee, Salming)
74-75: 4th (Orr, Potvin, Lapointe, Salming)
75-76: 3rd (Potvin, Park, Salming, Lapointe, Savard)
76-77: 2nd (Robinson, Salming, Potvin, Lapointe, Savard)
77-78: 4th (Potvin, Park, Robinson, Salming, Lapointe)
78-79: 3rd (Potvin, Robinson, Salming, Savard, Lapointe)
79-80: 2nd (Robinson, Salming, Schoenfeld, Bourque, Howe)
80-81: 10th
81-82: 14th

• Salming has a very impressive 5 year stretch from 1975-76 to 1979-80 when the only defensemen to finish ahead of him in Norris voting were Potvin, Robinson, and Park.

Brian Leetch

88-89: 11th
90-91: 4th (Bourque, MacInnis, Chelios, Leetch, Coffey)
91-92: 1st (Leetch, Bourque, Housley, Stevens, Murphy)
93-94: 5th (Bourque, Stevens, MacInnis, Zubov, Leetch)
94-95: 5th or 6th - weird voting in the lockout year.
95-96: 3rd (Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, Konstantinov, Coffey)
96-97: 1st (Leetch, Konstantinov, Ozolinsh, Chelios, Stevens)
98-99: 8th
00-01: 5th (Lidstrom, Bourque, Stevens, Blake, Leetch)
03-04: 11th

• Leetch doesn't quite have the consistency of the other two, but he has 2 dominant Norris wins. Leetch's 1991-92 is particularly impressive, as he took 65 of 69 1st place votes. In 1996-97, He took 42 of 54 1st place votes, albeit against softer competition (Chelios and Stevens were no longer at their offensive best; Stevens actually was 2nd behind Leetch in 1st place votes, but finished 5th overall).

_________________________

Comments:

• By awards voting, these three men look close to me! Anyone want to make an argument to the contrary?
• Just like the playoffs, when Leetch was at his best, he was the best of these 3. But he also looks to have been the least consistent of them.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Looking at the Norris record, you'd conclude Borje Salming was better than Serge Savard during the Montreal dynasty from 1976 to 1979.Was it really the case? Many have said Savard was underrated by Norris voting due to his defensive style plus the unique situation of being a member of the Big Three.

You could ask the same question about Guy Lapointe, to a lesser extent.

I feel this is an important question because in his best stretch, the relevant defensemen Salming was beating were Savard and Lapointe.He did beat Potvin in 1977, but Potvin ''only'' scored 80 points that season, which was an underwhelming total for him (yet still more than Salming ever scored).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Results from coaching and player's polls for the 3 defensemen:

1958 coach's poll
Best attacking defenseman - Bill Gadsby (Harvey was close behind)
Note that Gadsby didn't get any votes for "best defensive defenseman." This supports the speculation from the HOH Top Defensemen project that he was more of an offensive defenseman in NY and more of a defensive defenseman in Detroit.
This is backed up by statistics, where Gadsby generally outscored Harvey at even strength, while Harvey outscored Gadsby on the PP.

1974 coach's poll (Salming's rookie year!)
Best defensive defenseman: Bill White (Borje Salming, Jacques Laperriere, Rod Seiling, Dave Burrows)

1976 coach's poll
Salming didn't place in any category

1979 coach's poll
Best Playmaker - Bryan Trottier (Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Borje Salming)
Best Skater - Guy Lafleur (Borje Salming, Bob Gainey)
Best Passer - Bryan Trottier (Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Borje Salming)
Most Colorful Player - Guy Lafleur (Terry O'Reilly, Borje Salming, Dave Williams)
Most Natural Ability - Guy Lafleur (Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Borje Salming)
Best Defensive Defenceman - Larry Robinson (Serge Savard, Borje Salming)

1981 player's poll
Best Offensive Defenseman 1 Denis Potvin 2 Borje Salming 3 Larry Robinson
Salming was not top 3 in "best defensive defenseman," losing out to Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, and Dave Burrows.

Not really a poll, but in the 88-89 THN yearbook, Salming got the most mentions for "dirtiest player."

1990 player's poll (a little before Leetch's prime)
Best offensive defenseman: P Coffey (68), R Bourque (21), P Housley (9), B Leetch (8), G Suter (8)

1993 coach's poll
Best Offensive Defenceman: Phil Housley (6), Ray Bourque (4), Chris Chelios (4), Paul Coffey (2), Brian Leetch (2), Steve Duchesne (1), Kevin Hatcher (1), Al MacInnis (1)

Jan 1994 coach's poll
Best Offensive Defenceman: Brian Leetch (8), Ray Bourque (7), Paul Coffey (3), Chris Chelios (1), Al MacInnis (1)

May 1994 coach's poll
Best Power-Play Point Man: 1. (tie) Ray Bourque, Al MacInnis, Brian Leetch (6). Others: (3) Sergei Zubov; (2) Paul Coffey, Phil Housley; (1) Chris Chelios.

__________________________

International play

Borje Salming was voted All-Star defenseman along with Bobby Orr at the 1976 Canada Cup. At the time, he was considered Sweden's best player by far, and Team Canada's strategy was to constantly hit him.

Brian Leetch was voted All-Star at the 2002 Olympics along with his partner Chris Chelios. At the time, the his NHL club (the Rangers) were terrible, overworked Leetch like mad, and he looked flat out bad in his own zone. So its interesting to note that on a strong Team USA, Leetch was still able to excel.

Leetch was not an All-Star at the 1996 World Cup (Team USA's only victory in true best-on-best competition), but his pairing with Chris Chelios (who was an All-Star) was highly praised.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looking at the Norris record, you'd conclude Borje Salming was better than Serge Savard during the Montreal dynasty from 1976 to 1979.Was it really the case? Many have said Savard was underrated by Norris voting due to his defensive style plus the unique situation of being a member of the Big Three.

You could ask the same question about Guy Lapointe, to a lesser extent.

I feel this is an important question because in his best stretch, the relevant defensemen Salming was beating were Savard and Lapointe.He did beat Potvin in 1977, but Potvin ''only'' scored 80 points that season, which was an underwhelming total for him (yet still more than Salming ever scored).

But when Salming more or less dominates the two of them in Norris voting, what are you going to do? (I realize Savard was underrated in Norris voting, but that shouldn't really be used to hurt Salming's ranking now)

Salming was an even-strength monster, at least in the regular season, putting up vastly better ratios than his teammates. Of course, that's easier to do when your teammates aren't very good.

Even looking at coach's polls - Salming didn't fare that much worse than Serge Savard as "best defensive defenseman," and he greatly outscored Savard, including at even strength.

And Salming's performance in the 1976 Canada Cup shows that he could be a big game player.

 

[blogofmike]

Bill Gadsby was one of the best offensive defenders of his day and stuck on a bad team for a good chunk of it. Almost seems like Erik Karlsson, but I think Karlsson, especially in 2017 when he dragged a sorry Senators team to Game 7 of the ECF, was better.

 

[MXD]

Comments:

• By awards voting, these three men look close to me! Anyone want to make an argument to the contrary?
• Just like the playoffs, when Leetch was at his best, he was the best of these 3. But he also looks to have been the least consistent of them.

This is, in a nutshell, pretty much why we'd have needed to hand out a Top-150 if I was to rank Leetch anywhere during Round 1. And he's a lot like Fedorov, in that some people just bluntly take his best showing and applying to the all the non-showings in order to come up with a unicorn and rainbows picture.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bill Gadsby was one of the best offensive defenders of his day and stuck on a bad team for a good chunk of it. Almost seems like Erik Karlsson, but I think Karlsson, especially in 2017 when he dragged a sorry Senators team to Game 7 of the ECF, was better.

True, but if Karlsson had better longevity behind him, he'd be up for voting too.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well... every time this forum has rated those defensemen, Salming comes out ahead, then Savard, then Lapointe. Yes, I realize that is circular reasoning... But when Salming more or less dominates the two of them in Norris voting, what are you going to do?

Salming was an even-strength monster, at least in the regular season, putting up vastly better ratios than his teammates. Of course, that's easier to do when your teammates aren't very good.

Even looking at coach's polls - Salming didn't fare that much worse than Serge Savard as "best defensive defenseman," and he greatly outscored Savard, including at even strength.

And Salming's performance in the 1976 Canada Cup shows that he could be a big game player.

1972 Summit Series, Savard was excellent.

Also the following needs a serious look:

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 14

Specifically:

Dickie Moore - I actually hate adding yet another 50s Canadien at this point, and Moore's longevity is pretty bad. But man, was he ever thought of highly during his career. I'm going to post a little bit of the pros and cons of Moore a little later, for myself, as much as anyone else.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is, in a nutshell, pretty much why we'd have needed to hand out a Top-150 if I was to rank Leetch anywhere during Round 1. And he's a lot like Fedorov, in that some people just bluntly take his best showing and applying to the all the non-showings in order to come up with a unicorn and rainbows picture.

Interesting comparison, but:

1) Leetch's 2nd best season (Norris winner!) is a lot better than Fedorov's second best season.
2) In Leetch's 3rd and 4th best seasons, he finished behind Bourque/Chelios and Bourque/MacInnis/Chelios (while ahead of Coffey) in Norris voting. Better than Fedorov's 3rd and 4th best seasons.
3) In Leetch's 5th and 6th best seasons, he still finished 5th in Norris voting. Better again than Fedorov, who only has 4 top 20 finishes as a scorer.

Okay, now I'm convinced Leetch should rank decisively over Fedorov.

 

[MXD]

Bill Gadsby was one of the best offensive defenders of his day and stuck on a bad team for a good chunk of it. Almost seems like Erik Karlsson, but I think Karlsson, especially in 2017 when he dragged a sorry Senators team to Game 7 of the ECF, was better.

Well, on a per season basis, Karlsson is quite a bit ahead of Gadsby. It's just that Gadsby also played twice as many seasons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mostly off topic, but Karlsson was actually in my top 120, and it wasn't because of his longevity.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Results from coaching and player's polls for the 3 defensemen:

1958 coach's poll
Best attacking defenseman - Bill Gadsby (Harvey was close behind)
Note that Gadsby didn't get any votes for "best defensive defenseman." This supports the speculation from the HOH Top Defensemen project that he was more of an offensive defenseman in NY and more of a defensive defenseman in Detroit.
This is backed up by statistics, where Gadsby generally outscored Harvey at even strength, while Harvey outscored Gadsby on the PP.

1974 coach's poll (Salming's rookie year!)
Best defensive defenseman: Bill White (Borje Salming, Jacques Laperriere, Rod Seiling, Dave Burrows)

1976 coach's poll
Salming didn't place in any category

1979 coach's poll
Best Playmaker - Bryan Trottier (Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Borje Salming)
Best Skater - Guy Lafleur (Borje Salming, Bob Gainey)
Best Passer - Bryan Trottier (Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Borje Salming)
Most Colorful Player - Guy Lafleur (Terry O'Reilly, Borje Salming, Dave Williams)
Most Natural Ability - Guy Lafleur (Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Borje Salming)
Best Defensive Defenceman - Larry Robinson (Serge Savard, Borje Salming)

1981 player's poll
Best Offensive Defenseman 1 Denis Potvin 2 Borje Salming 3 Larry Robinson
Salming was not top 3 in "best defensive defenseman," losing out to Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, and Dave Burrows.

Not really a poll, but in the 88-89 THN yearbook, Salming got the most mentions for "dirtiest player."

1990 player's poll (a little before Leetch's prime)
Best offensive defenseman: P Coffey (68), R Bourque (21), P Housley (9), B Leetch (8), G Suter (8)

1993 coach's poll
Best Offensive Defenceman: Phil Housley (6), Ray Bourque (4), Chris Chelios (4), Paul Coffey (2), Brian Leetch (2), Steve Duchesne (1), Kevin Hatcher (1), Al MacInnis (1)

Jan 1994 coach's poll
Best Offensive Defenceman: Brian Leetch (8), Ray Bourque (7), Paul Coffey (3), Chris Chelios (1), Al MacInnis (1)

May 1994 coach's poll
Best Power-Play Point Man: 1. (tie) Ray Bourque, Al MacInnis, Brian Leetch (6). Others: (3) Sergei Zubov; (2) Paul Coffey, Phil Housley; (1) Chris Chelios.

__________________________

International play

Borje Salming was voted All-Star defenseman along with Bobby Orr at the 1976 Canada Cup. At the time, he was considered Sweden's best player by far, and Team Canada's strategy was to constantly hit him.

Brian Leetch was voted All-Star at the 2002 Olympics along with his partner Chris Chelios. At the time, the his NHL club (the Rangers) were terrible, overworked Leetch like mad, and he looked flat out bad in his own zone. So its interesting to note that on a strong Team USA, Leetch was still able to excel.

Leetch was not an All-Star at the 1996 World Cup (Team USA's only victory in true best-on-best competition), but his pairing with Chris Chelios (who was an All-Star) was highly praised.

All three of these players will likely take up the last three spots for me in this round.

 

[MXD]

Mostly off topic, but Karlsson was actually in my top 120, and it wasn't because of his longevity.

Karlsson absolutely was on my Top-120 as well, and on a season-by-season comparison, he compares really favorably to Leetch.

Nothing quite says "overrated and overexposed" like Brian Leetch. He's a hockey hall of famer, and was terrific in 1994. I get that, and I'm not taking it way from him. He had a performance for ages.

... It's just that I can't really take seriously anyhing that came afterwards.

 

[sr edler]

1) Leetch's 2nd best season (Norris winner!) is a lot better than Fedorov's second best season.

I'm a Leetch fan but there's that hyperbole again ("a lot"). Leetch 2nd Norris came against relatively weak competition and Fedorov's 95–96 was a very impressive season, leading the Red Wings decisively in points, collecting a Selke while the team cruised to an outstanding Presidents' Trophy.

Okay, now I'm convinced Leetch should rank decisively over Fedorov.

Shouldn't everyone do so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm a Leetch fan but there's that hyperbole again ("a lot"). Leetch 2nd Norris came against relatively weak competition and Fedorov's 95–96 was a very impressive season, leading the Red Wings decisively in points, collecting a Selke while the team cruised to an outstanding Presidents' Trophy.




Shouldn't everyone do so.

You're right, Leetch's 2nd best season was somewhat better than Fedorov's 2nd best, not a lot better. Fedorov's 95-96 was a legit great season; I'm just not sure it was as good as a "won the Norris in a landslide" season.

 

[DN28]

Thanks for posting this.

To add to this: It should be noted that Vladimir Martinec is widely considered the best player on the Czecholovakian hockey team that seems to have almost been as good as the Soviet team for a brief period of time in the mid-late 1970s. (CSSR actually beat USSR more often than not, but wasn't nearly as good against other teams). IMO, Martinec should probably make our list (though I know from experience he basically has no chance). But even if he doesn't make our list, the main reason is that he lacked the longevity of a Mikhailov or a Maltsev.

Also, as the #1 star of CSSR, Martinec was probably easier to give All-Star votes to over Mikhailov, who was one of several star forwards on USSR. Since awards voters like to spread their votes among multiple teams.

Point being that being blocked from more All-Star nods at RW at the World Championships shouldn't be held against Mikhailov too much.

Martinec would be great to discuss for sure. I do lean towards the "canon", i. e. Mikhailov > Maltsev > Martinec and I agree that Martinec lacks pure longevity in terms of just being still a useful player for a lot of years.. but longevity in terms of elite seasons as one the top forwards in Europe? There´s not much difference, Martinec has basically 6 elite seasons, Mikhailov arguably 7, Maltsev probably 6-7 (not sure). I still prefer Mikhailov thanks to his style of play and leadership, that´s the main point in his favour.

I disagree with the notion of Mikhailov being "blocked" from more All-Star nods. Based on my reading, Martinec 4-year run of picking up AST nods was well deserved. I intentionally mentioned the 1974 WHC where Martinec was the biggest vote-getter of all players, Mikhailov just wasn´t close. 1976 WHC, Mikhailov wasn´t close either, the Soviet offense there was completely run by Kharlamov (per contemporary reports... Petrov didn´t play there and Maltsev got soon injured, Mikhailov was an afterthought). And as I listed, Mikhailov losing AST honours to Martinec was only a small portion of it. He also lost twice to Vikulov, twice to Maltsev, couple other players...

Bottom line is that Mikhailov was rarely the best RW, plain and simple. BUT that doesn´t mean that he wasn´t great player, RW was just one of the deeper positions at the time.

 

[wetcoast]

Looking at the Norris record, you'd conclude Borje Salming was better than Serge Savard during the Montreal dynasty from 1976 to 1979.Was it really the case? Many have said Savard was underrated by Norris voting due to his defensive style plus the unique situation of being a member of the Big Three.

You could ask the same question about Guy Lapointe, to a lesser extent.

I feel this is an important question because in his best stretch, the relevant defensemen Salming was beating were Savard and Lapointe.He did beat Potvin in 1977, but Potvin ''only'' scored 80 points that season, which was an underwhelming total for him (yet still more than Salming ever scored).

That's a real hard question to answer as it's hard but to look good on great teams and Salming took a lot of abuse being a European player in the 70s NHL.

Savard isn't up yet and won a Conn Smythe but his Habs won another one completely without him as well.

I agree with Salming being up earlier he was at least a bit better.

 

[pappyline]

Re :Gadsby

This has already been addressed in more detail in this thread by other posters, but an argument against Gadsby in the HOH Top Defensemen project was that bad GAAs tended to follow him from team to team, a contrast with someone like Pronger, for whom good results followed him from team to team. Of course, Pronger is long gone on our list now. And overpass's recent post about Gadsby's very high usage at ES and the PK does make him look better... And one could argue that if such a heavily used defenseman contributed more to better team defense, he'd already be on our list.

Yes, I remember that argument from the top defensemen project. It was part of a push to downgrade Gadsby in a order to rank Pronger and Stevens above him. In other words Gadsby was penalized for playing on bad teams. And it worked then and it continued to work in this list.

And those Blackhawk and Ranger teams were really bad. Look at the 53-54 Blackhawks. Gadsby was their only star. Hawks finished a bad last. Gadsby was captain, a 2nd team allstar and second in team points by one point. The leader in points was Larry Wilson with 42 and the goals leader with 19 was Pete Conacher. Do you remember those names? They went on to have distinquished AHL careers.

Rangers in 58-59 weren't much better but at least he had Bathgate to play with. That season Gadsby was a 1st AS and set the defenseman records for assists. The Rangers finished 5th.

I really think they did a job on Gadsby in that defenceman project and it needed to be pointed out.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nels Stewart vs Brett Hull as regular season goal scorers

I'm including every season that either man finished within 50% of the #2 goal scorer.
Their seasons are ordered based on their score Vs the 2 goal scorer
Top 20 Ranks are included where applicable.

*Stewart's 1925-26 season was against only about half the talent in the world - the rest was in the WCHL, which was in its final season.

1930-31

Stewart season	Stewart Rank	Stewart Vs #2		Hull Season	Hull rank	Hull Vs #2
1925-26	1st*	121%*		1990-91	1st	169%
1936-37	1st(T)	100%		1991-92	1st	130%
1928-29	2nd	100%		1989-90	1st	116%
1927-28	3rd	96%		1993-94	2nd	100%
1929-30	4th	95%		1994-95	6th	91%
1934-35	6th	84%		1996-97	10th	82%
1930-31	4th	83%		2002-03	8th	77%
1937-38	8th	83%		1998-99	19th	73%
1933-34	3rd	81%		2001-02	N/A	73%
1926-27	8th	68%		2000-01	14th	72%
1931-32	7th	67%		1992-93	9th	71%
1932-33	9th	67%		1995-96	14th	69%
1938-39	9th	67%		2003-04	N/A	61%
1935-36	15th	61%		1988-89	19th	59%
				1999-00	N/A	55%
				1997-98	N/A	52%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Conclusions:

• Stewart had a remarkable 14 straight seasons as a top 15 goal scorer, 13 of them in the top 10. All of these 14 straight seasons crossed the 60% threshold.
• Hull had a few down years preventing him from having similar streaks, but he did break 50% of #2 for 16 straight years.
• Hull has the better 3 year peak. 4th-6th best seasons are basically even. Stewart was better in his 7th-9th best seasons, then they are basically even the rest of the way.
• So who was better in the regular season?

1. Hull clearly has the best 3 year peak
2. Stewart wins on consistency, especially when you consider he did it an an era when such productive longevity was basically unheard of.

• I went into this exercise favoring Stewart because of his amazing 13 top 10 finishes in goal scoring - but looking at the numbers more closely, Hull is right there with Stewart in terms of percentages behind the leaders (best 3 years to Hull, arguably best 9 years to Stewart).
• I think these 2 men are too close to call in the regular season.
• Hull comfortably beats Stewart in the playoffs (info on Hull's playoffs posted a few rounds ago), so he should be ranked higher.