Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: Mikhailov and Maltsev - Isn't the biggest thing in Mikhailov's favor that he performed significantly better vs the best competition - Canada (Mikhailov was great, Malsev pretty good) and Czechoslovakia (Mikhailov was pretty good, Maltsev disappointing), while Maltsev beat up more on the weaker teams?

 

[sr edler]

Somewhat interesting, in his best season (1991-92, beat a historically strong field of defensemen in Norris voting by a landslide), Messier was voted Team MVP. That was the year Messier won the Hart in a landslide.

Exactly why you shouldn't award count without context, because it comes with so many different variations depending on season, position, teammates, potentially flawed voting, et cetera. Messier might have won that Hart in a landslide, but he wasn't a landslide better player than Leetch that year.

 

[DN28]

Re: Mikhailov and Maltsev - Isn't the biggest thing in Mikhailov's favor that he performed significantly better vs the best competition - Canada (Mikhailov was great, Malsev pretty good) and Czechoslovakia (Mikhailov was pretty good, Maltsev disappointing), while Maltsev beat up more on the weaker teams?

Yes, absolutely, I agree.

During the Top 50 non-NHL Europeans, "Robert Gordon Orr" posted table containing top 50 players in internatinal scoring of all-time (HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread). I saved the link but table got lost due to site migration. I PMed him some time ago if he still has those numbers. He sent the excel spreadsheet to me updated for 2018. Here are the overall numbers first (tournaments included: all Olympics from 1920 onwards, all European Championships 1910-1932, all World Championships up to 2018, all Canada Cups / World Cups up to 2016, and unofficial European Championship 1940, 1941):

#	Player	Country	Career	Games	Goals	Assists	Points
1	Aleksandr Maltsev	Soviet Union	1969-1983	137	98	95	193
2	Valeri Kharlamov	Soviet Union	1969-1980	123	89	102	191
3	Sergei Makarov	Soviet Union	1978-1991	145	82	100	182
4	Boris Mikhailov	Soviet Union	1969-1980	120	108	72	180
5	Vladimir Petrov	Soviet Union	1969-1981	117	82	85	167
6	Josef Maleček	Czechoslovakia	1922-1940	78	97	65	162
7	Vyacheslav Fetisov	Soviet Union	1977-1991	143	51	95	146
8	Sven 'Tumba' Johansson	Sweden	1952-1966	97	85	57	142
9	Vladimir Krutov	Soviet Union	1980-1989	112	74	64	138
10	Vladimir Martinec	Czechoslovakia	1970-1981	118	68	67	135
11	Vladimir Zábrodský	Czechoslovakia	1947-1956	44	78	47	125
12	Anatoli Firsov	Soviet Union	1964-1972	67	66	51	117
13	Jiří Holik	Czechoslovakia	1964-1977	142	59	58	117
14	Veniamin Aleksandrov	Soviet Union	1957-1968	76	68	48	116
15	Riccardo 'Bibi' Torriani	Switzerland	1928-1948	69	63	50	113
16	Václav Nedomanský	Czechoslovakia	1965-1974	93	78	32	110
17	Ville Peltonen	Finland	1994-2010	145	46	62	108
18	Vlastimil Bubnik	Czechoslovakia	1952-1964	63	60	46	106
19	Erich Kühnhackl	West Germany	1972-1985	90	55	50	105
20	Ivan Hlinka	Czechoslovakia	1970-1981	108	53	52	105
21	Uli Poltera	Switzerland	1947-1954	54	72	31	103
22	Aleksandr Yakushev	Soviet Union	1967-1979	93	63	40	103
22	Sergei Kapustin	Soviet Union	1974-1983	97	63	40	103
24	Ilya Kovalchuk	Russia	2002-2018	117	49	54	103
25	Teemu Selänne	Finland	1991-2014	96	54	48	102
26	Jaromir Jágr	Czech Republic	1990-2015	121	47	55	102
27	Vladimir Vikulov	Soviet Union	1966-1975	79	55	46	101
28	Vyacheslav Bykov	Soviet Union / Russia	1983-1995	108	47	50	97
29	Andrei Khomutov	Soviet Union / Russia	1981-1995	122	45	52	97
30	Vyacheslav Starshinov	Soviet Union	1961-1971	79	64	31	95
31	Mats Sundin	Sweden	1990-2006	79	43	51	94
32	Saku Koivu	Finland	1993-2010	89	30	64	94
33	Milan Novy	Czechoslovakia	1975-1982	86	53	40	93
34	Alexei Kasatonov	Soviet Union	1980-1991	125	28	65	93
35	Nils Nilsson	Sweden	1956-1967	63	58	34	92
36	Ronald Pettersson	Sweden	1955-1967	85	49	43	92
37	Gerd Truntschka	West Germany / Germany	1979-1993	108	31	59	90
38	Miroslav Satan	Slovakia	1994-2014	117	47	42	89
39	Raimo Helminen	Finland	1984-2002	140	18	70	88
40	Igor Larionov	Soviet Union / Russia	1982-2002	103	36	51	87
41	Konstantin Loktev	Soviet Union	1957-1966	55	50	36	86
42	Ulf Sterner	Sweden	1960-1973	87	47	39	86
43	Dieter Hegen	West Germany / Germany	1982-1998	147	55	29	84
44	Vladimir Shadrin	Soviet Union	1970-1977	71	41	43	84
46	Viktor Zhluktov	Soviet Union	1976-1983	90	35	47	82
47	Wayne Gretzky	Canada	1981-1998	55	26	56	82
45	Ferdinand 'Pic' Cattini	Switzerland	1933-1949	60	53	28	81
48	Tord Lundström	Sweden	1965-1975	91	46	34	80
49	Evgeny Malkin	Russia	2005-2016	73	38	42	80
50	Daniel Alfredsson	Sweden	1995-2014	92	32	47	79

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As you can see, Maltsev is at the very top of the list, but now we take a look at the stats of Soviets vs. NA pros, and vs. Czechoslovaks. Maltsev looks a lot worse specifically compared to Mikhailov. Numbers were provided by "Namba 17" (Soviet players stats vs CSSR players), (Soviet players stats against NA professionals).

Soviets vs. Czechoslovakia (ranked by ppg):

	Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	GPG
1	Makarov	23	9	14	23	1,00	0,39
2	Mikhailov	24	8	14	22	0,92	0,33
3	Firsov	11	6	4	10	0,91	0,55
4	Balderis	11	7	3	10	0,91	0,64
5	Krutov	19	9	8	17	0,89	0,47
6	Petrov	23	10	10	20	0,87	0,43
7	B. Mayorov	7	3	3	6	0,86	0,43
8	Bykov	11	8	1	9	0,82	0,73
9	Kharlamov	24	10	8	18	0,75	0,42
10	Larionov	17	6	6	12	0,71	0,35
11	Starshinov	13	7	2	9	0,69	0,54
12	Kapustin	20	6	7	13	0,65	0,30
13	Shalimov	13	5	3	8	0,62	0,38
14	Kamensky	7	2	2	4	0,57	0,29
15	Maltsev	24	6	7	13	0,54	0,25
16	Vikulov	13	3	4	7	0,54	0,23
17	A. Yakushev	19	7	3	10	0,53	0,37
18	Shepelev	10	4	1	5	0,50	0,40
19	Shadrin	14	1	5	6	0,43	0,07
20	V.Golikov	12	2	3	5	0,42	0,17
21	Skvortsov	13	4	1	5	0,38	0,31
22	Zluktov	18	3	3	6	0,33	0,17
23	Khomutov	18	2	4	6	0,33	0,11
24	Anisin	6	0	1	1	0,17	0,00
25	Drozdetsky	9	1	0	1	0,11	0,11

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Soviets vs. North Americans (ranked by ppg):

#	Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	GPG
1	Krutov	27	18	16	34	1,26	0,67
2	Petrov	33	18	22	40	1,21	0,55
3	Kharlamov	39	19	28	47	1,21	0,49
4	Yakushev	31	21	14	35	1,13	0,68
5	Makarov	31	15	20	35	1,13	0,48
6	Varnakov	24	13	12	25	1,04	0,54
7	Kapustin	28	11	17	28	1,00	0,39
8	Bykov	25	11	13	24	0,96	0,44
9	Balderis	24	13	10	23	0,96	0,54
10	Mikhailov	40	20	16	36	0,90	0,50
11	Skvortsov	27	12	12	24	0,89	0,44
12	Shalimov	27	8	15	23	0,85	0,30
13	Maltsev	40	13	20	33	0,83	0,33
14	Larionov	22	6	12	18	0,82	0,27
15	Fetisov	31	8	17	25	0,81	0,26
16	Khomutov	27	8	13	21	0,78	0,30
17	Kasatonov	35	7	19	26	0,74	0,20
18	Shadrin	31	6	16	22	0,71	0,19
19	Anisin	34	11	13	24	0,71	0,32
20	Zhluktov	23	2	13	15	0,65	0,09
21	A.Golikov	23	8	7	15	0,65	0,35
22	Kovin	33	6	14	20	0,61	0,18
23	Vikulov	33	9	10	19	0,58	0,27
24	Lebedev	25	6	5	11	0,44	0,24

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Difference between Maltsev´ and Mikhailov´s scoring vs. NA is not that big (though Mikhailov´s is still better), but difference between Maltsev´ and Mikhailov´s scoring vs. CSSR is large and significant indeed.

 

[blogofmike]

Leetch was +31, the league leader in assists was a +12. Back spasm man was also +12. That's a significant difference for players on the same team.

+/- isn't directly tied to an individual player's quality of play. If it were, we would all recognize Charlie Huddy as the greatest playoff defenceman of the modern era.

Leetch's high score in 1997 is at least partly based on a high amount of ice time on a team that generally outscores the other guys, much like his horrible -36 score in 1998 is partly based on a high amount of ice time on a team that generally can't.

I do not think Leetch was the best Ranger in 1997. I also don't think he was the worst in 1998.

 

[seventieslord]

Bill Gadsby was one of the best offensive defenders of his day and stuck on a bad team for a good chunk of it. Almost seems like Erik Karlsson, but I think Karlsson, especially in 2017 when he dragged a sorry Senators team to Game 7 of the ECF, was better.

Ugh, thanks for reminding me we are going to rank Bill Gadsby over Erik Karlsson.

 

[pappyline]

Ugh, thanks for reminding me we are going to rank Bill Gadsby over Erik Karlsson.

Hasn't happened yet. But double ugh if it doesn't

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

+/- isn't directly tied to an individual player's quality of play. If it were, we would all recognize Charlie Huddy as the greatest playoff defenceman of the modern era.

Leetch's high score in 1997 is at least partly based on a high amount of ice time on a team that generally outscores the other guys, much like his horrible -36 score in 1998 is partly based on a high amount of ice time on a team that generally can't.

I do not think Leetch was the best Ranger in 1997. I also don't think he was the worst in 1998.

Just wondering, how much Rangers hockey did you see in 1997?

 

[sr edler]

96–97 was a pretty meh regular season overall. Both Forsberg and Sakic missed a bunch (15+) of games and Forsberg would have been at least a 2nd team all star had he played those games. Bure had also not rejuvenated himself yet. The fact that the Avalanche won the Presidents' Trophy despite Forsberg and Sakic only playing 65 games each, Kamensky 68 games, Ricci 63 games, C. Lemieux 45 games, says a lot.

I can buy that Leetch was the best Ranger in 96–97, but that still doesn't mean he had a better season than Fedorov's 95–96, because Fedorov was the best player on a m u c h better team.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Ugh, thanks for reminding me we are going to rank Bill Gadsby over Erik Karlsson.

Karlsson certainly could end up in Gadsby territory at the end of his career, or even higher. But he has less than 10 NHL seasons to his credit, he does not have a full career to base his case on. For me it is far easier to accurately gauge a player's place on a list like this at the end of after their career is done. I'd rather underrate a player than overrate a player that's in the middle of their career.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Here's where I stand at the moment.

Bill Durnan: Has a non-trivial argument as the top goaltender of the first half of the 20th century. Strong play after the war years should legitimize strong play during the war years.

Turk Broda: Seems to be somewhat less well-regarded than Durnan by contemporaries, but excellent longevity and important contributions to Toronto's dynasty close the gap.

Sergei Fedorov: All things considered, Detroit was the top franchise in the NHL over an extended period of time, and Fedorov was a major reason for that. Strong overall game, strong playoff resume. Scored less in the regular season than you'd like, but picked up the offense when the games got important.

Brett Hull: One dimensional, but he was good enough at that dimension to be a franchise-defining player at his peak. One of the best goal-scoring peaks of all time, aged well afterwards. Reluctantly or not, he did buy into what Hitchcock and Bowman were selling. Like Fedorov, you always knew Hull was going to show up for a big game. Consistent playoff producer, won Cups with multiple teams.

Bill Gadsby: Over-shadowed by Harvey and Kelly, but there's no shame in that. A statistically strong playoff performer who did as well as could be expected on mostly over-matched teams. Still some question marks about his defensive abilities, but awards voters seemed to give him his due. And this was in an era where they saw every player frequently, so attractive scoring totals weren't the overriding factor like they became in modern times.

Borje Salming: Much like Gadsby, much of his great career was spent languishing on mediocre to poor teams. Gets some pioneer points for surviving and thriving in an era that featured plenty of thugs and was not particularly welcoming to European players. Six consecutive AST selections, and the only guys who were beating him out were on this list ages ago.

Elmer Lach: My opinion of Lach is rising throughout the week. Like his teammate Durnan, his war-time exploits are legitimized by strong play for many years afterwards. My only hiccup with Lach is his playoff production from about 1950 onwards. It's simply not very good, at least on paper. Worthy of a closer look if time permits.

Boris Mikhailov: Not quite so high on Mikhailov as I was initailly. Seems to have received the majority of his award recognition in the late 70's vacuum as the Kharlamov generation grew old and the Makarov generation hadn't yet arrived. Points for strong leadership, tenacious attitude. Him and Lach seem like very comparable players, so I'd have no problem with them being back-to-back on my ballot.

Brian Leetch: Fabulous peak in a talent-rich environment in the early 90's. One of the more dominating Conn Smythe-winning performances of the last 30 years. Don't love the back half of his career, but being over-worked on a surprisingly weak (for all the money they had to spend) Rangers backline may have taken its toll.

Nels Stewart: If people are being hard on Hull and Fedorov for selective efforts, I can't imagine Stewart ranking highly in their minds. His style seemed reasonably effective in the pre-forward pass era, and he was an imposing presence in a rough era. It's hard to overlook the accounts of his almost comical level of laziness in the liberalized passing era, though. He seems to have brought virtually nothing to the table beyond scoring post-Maroons and was nonetheless still equalled or outscored on his own team by Marty Barry in Boston, then Art Chapman and Sweeney Schriner in New York. Memorable for being the guy who Rocket Richard passed to take the all-time goal scoring lead, but I honestly wonder if that fact led to him being remembered by history as better than he really was.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The thing is, even when Nels Stewart wasn't trying hard, he was still scoring at a high level.

 

[The Panther]

Elmer Lach: My opinion of Lach is rising throughout the week. Like his teammate Durnan, his war-time exploits are legitimized by strong play for many years afterwards. My only hiccup with Lach is his playoff production from about 1950 onwards. It's simply not very good, at least on paper. Worthy of a closer look if time permits.

About Elmer Lach, just to mention that he turned 32 years old during 1949-50. He was very much a 1930s/40s player, and not a 1950s' player.

That was an era when few players played much beyond the early 30s. By 1950, the oldest players in the NHL were 33, which was only 1 year older than Lach.

Now, I know Lach was still a 1st-team All Star in 1951-52, so obviously he could still play at a high level, but I just wanted to point out that he was an elder statesmen by then.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The thing is, even when Nels Stewart wasn't trying hard, he was still scoring at a high level.

I'll theorize that his scoring finishes from 1931 onwards (which aren't anything spectacular anyway) are somewhat inflated by low assist counting. Stewart was a pretty weak playmaker compared to the other first line players that would be considered elite scorers. And by the sounds of it, a lot of his goals were the end product of hard work by his teammates while he loafed around waiting for his team to regain possession.

If Stewart is to rank highly on somebody's ballot this round, it surely must be due to his first few years in the league, in which he is described as a legitimately great player and has the two Hart Trophies to show for it. After the restrictions on forward passing were lifted, he seems to have become a Rick Nash/Peter Bondra level of player in terms of his value.

I think Stewart should probably end up on this list, but I have a hard time envisioning him outside the bottom three among this group.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

About Elmer Lach, just to mention that he turned 32 years old during 1949-50. He was very much a 1930s/40s player, and not a 1950s' player.

That was an era when few players played much beyond the early 30s. By 1950, the oldest players in the NHL were 33, which was only 1 year older than Lach.

Now, I know Lach was still a 1st-team All Star in 1951-52, so obviously he could still play at a high level, but I just wanted to point out that he was an elder statesmen by then.

Yeah, this is a fair point, but I think it is sometimes overstated when applying the reasoning to HOF-level players. For comparison, Nels Stewart led the NHL in goals at age 34 in the 1930s. Bill Durnan was a runner-up for the Hart Trophy at age 33, and Turk Broda still had four Stanley Cups ahead of him at age 30. It's not totally unreasonable that Lach might have been running out of gas by the time the playoffs rolled around when he was in his 30s, but I'm not sure it's worthy of being given a pass, either.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll theorize that his scoring finishes from 1931 onwards (which aren't anything spectacular anyway) are somewhat inflated by low assist counting. Stewart was a pretty weak playmaker compared to the other first line players that would be considered elite scorers. And by the sounds of it, a lot of his goals were the end product of hard work by his teammates while he loafed around waiting for his team to regain possession.

If Stewart is to rank highly on somebody's ballot this round, it surely must be due to his first few years in the league, in which he is described as a legitimately great player and has the two Hart Trophies to show for it. After the restrictions on forward passing were lifted, he seems to have become a Rick Nash/Peter Bondra level of player in terms of his value.

I think Stewart should probably end up on this list, but I have a hard time envisioning him outside the bottom three among this group.

Stewart was actually 8th in total assists in the first 10 years after the forward pass: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

I realize a lot of that is due to longevity, but even on a per-game basis, he averaged 0.35 officially recorded assists while #1 Frank Boucher averaged 0.60. That's not awesome, but it's much better than you seem to think.

Scoring assists at a bit over 50% of the best playmaker of his generation actually isn't that bad for a guy who was primarily a goal scorer. Bondra and Nash weren't even close to that.

And as you said, Stewart was a much better all-around player prior to thr forward pass.

Were those assists largely due to rebounds or whatnot? Maybe. Bit they still measure offensive production.

----

Anyway, I don't have a problem at all with Stewart waiting a round or so to get in. I just wanted to point out that even floater Stewart wasn't that terrible at putting assists on the board.

 

[blogofmike]

Just wondering, how much Rangers hockey did you see in 1997?

I was pulling for New York that year, so I watched as much as I could from Ottawa. Maybe 1 game a week? Anytime they were on HNIC playing the Leafs or Canucks or whoever was Canadian. I'd watch the games against Montreal on RDS and have to listen to the French audio. (When Ottawa was on RDS and not on the English feed for some reason, the trick was usually to watch the muted game and to turn on the radio, but no such luck for the Rangers.) I definitely saw Round 2 and 3, but most of Round 1 was not available (I only saw Gretzky's hat trick against Florida through some rapid fire James Brown NHL on Fox game updates.) Otherwise, in spite of the robot mascots, the Fox era usually gave us Rangers games. I think they treated us like Buffalo, and Fox virtually never requested Buffalo games for the 3 PM slot. They definitely had a Gretzky Rangers vs Lemieux Penguins game. I think the Rangers usually did well on Fox until they played Detroit late in the season. I might be remembering it wrong, but I think Gretzky got tossed for trying to jump a Red Wing (Shanahan?) after a Stevens-ish hit on Leetch. Sadly not on YouTube, so I guess it didn't happen.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Stewart was actually 8th in total assists in the first 10 years after the forward pass: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

I realize a lot of that is due to longevity, but even on a per-game basis, he averaged 0.35 officially recorded assists while #1 Frank Boucher averaged 0.60. That's not awesome, but it's much better than you seem to think.

Scoring assists at a bit over 50% of the best playmaker of his generation actually isn't that bad for a guy who was primarily a goal scorer. Bondra and Nash weren't even close to that.

And as you said, Stewart was a much better all-around player prior to thr forward pass.

Were those assists largely due to rebounds or whatnot? Maybe. Bit they still measure offensive production.

Era-effects might have something to do with this though. Is a centerman recording assists at around 60% the rate of the best players particularly impressive in the two-line era? I legitimately don't know; perhaps it is. Stewart failed to crack the top 20 in assists most seasons after unrestricted forward passing. In league with 8-10 teams, who tended to ride their first line for the majority of the game, that's not really a high threshold for a first liner. But this is just me trying to piece things together 85 years after the fact, so admittedly it's largely speculation that Stewart was as weak a playmaker as I'm suggesting.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that Stewart is a very difficult player to evaluate. It seems hard to believe he could have been as one dimensional as portrayed and still won two Hart Trophies in an era where voters seemed to value defense above offense. Yet we have multiple accounts of Stewart being the definition of a cherry-picker. It's tough to even tie him closely to the success of his teams. The Maroons were a great team in his two best seasons, but didn't seem to suffer when they sold him to the Bruins. Boston's results with him aren't really out of the ordinary. The Americans didn't really improve when they bought him from the Bruins, but the Americans struggled for most of their existence regardless.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Since conversation seems to be drying up, I submitted a ballot, just-in-case.

The fact that Gadsby performed in a competitive crucible helped inform the interior of my ballot.

The fact that Nels Stewart didn't compete in a particularly peaceable time either helped inform the back-end of my ballot.

 

[MXD]

Will cast shortly.
Had you told me Borje Salming would've been my highest ranked skater at any point, I would probably have scratching my head. I only have two skaters ranked ahead of him (Duncan Keith and Martin St-Louis); I really don't care about either of my bottom-5 (that's Lach, Gadsby, Fedorov, Stewart and Leetch) and, with the possible exception of Gadsby, they could all miss it and our final list would be better in the long run.;

 

[Michael Farkas]

Can I vote tomorrow or no?

 

[VMBM]

Re: Mikhailov and Maltsev - Isn't the biggest thing in Mikhailov's favor that he performed significantly better vs the best competition - Canada (Mikhailov was great, Malsev pretty good) and Czechoslovakia (Mikhailov was pretty good, Maltsev disappointing), while Maltsev beat up more on the weaker teams?

Yes, absolutely, I agree.

During the Top 50 non-NHL Europeans, "Robert Gordon Orr" posted table containing top 50 players in internatinal scoring of all-time (HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread). I saved the link but table got lost due to site migration. I PMed him some time ago if he still has those numbers. He sent the excel spreadsheet to me updated for 2018. Here are the overall numbers first (tournaments included: all Olympics from 1920 onwards, all European Championships 1910-1932, all World Championships up to 2018, all Canada Cups / World Cups up to 2016, and unofficial European Championship 1940, 1941):

#	Player	Country	Career	Games	Goals	Assists	Points
1	Aleksandr Maltsev	Soviet Union	1969-1983	137	98	95	193
2	Valeri Kharlamov	Soviet Union	1969-1980	123	89	102	191
3	Sergei Makarov	Soviet Union	1978-1991	145	82	100	182
4	Boris Mikhailov	Soviet Union	1969-1980	120	108	72	180
5	Vladimir Petrov	Soviet Union	1969-1981	117	82	85	167
6	Josef Maleček	Czechoslovakia	1922-1940	78	97	65	162
7	Vyacheslav Fetisov	Soviet Union	1977-1991	143	51	95	146
8	Sven 'Tumba' Johansson	Sweden	1952-1966	97	85	57	142
9	Vladimir Krutov	Soviet Union	1980-1989	112	74	64	138
10	Vladimir Martinec	Czechoslovakia	1970-1981	118	68	67	135
11	Vladimir Zábrodský	Czechoslovakia	1947-1956	44	78	47	125
12	Anatoli Firsov	Soviet Union	1964-1972	67	66	51	117
13	Jiří Holik	Czechoslovakia	1964-1977	142	59	58	117
14	Veniamin Aleksandrov	Soviet Union	1957-1968	76	68	48	116
15	Riccardo 'Bibi' Torriani	Switzerland	1928-1948	69	63	50	113
16	Václav Nedomanský	Czechoslovakia	1965-1974	93	78	32	110
17	Ville Peltonen	Finland	1994-2010	145	46	62	108
18	Vlastimil Bubnik	Czechoslovakia	1952-1964	63	60	46	106
19	Erich Kühnhackl	West Germany	1972-1985	90	55	50	105
20	Ivan Hlinka	Czechoslovakia	1970-1981	108	53	52	105
21	Uli Poltera	Switzerland	1947-1954	54	72	31	103
22	Aleksandr Yakushev	Soviet Union	1967-1979	93	63	40	103
22	Sergei Kapustin	Soviet Union	1974-1983	97	63	40	103
24	Ilya Kovalchuk	Russia	2002-2018	117	49	54	103
25	Teemu Selänne	Finland	1991-2014	96	54	48	102
26	Jaromir Jágr	Czech Republic	1990-2015	121	47	55	102
27	Vladimir Vikulov	Soviet Union	1966-1975	79	55	46	101
28	Vyacheslav Bykov	Soviet Union / Russia	1983-1995	108	47	50	97
29	Andrei Khomutov	Soviet Union / Russia	1981-1995	122	45	52	97
30	Vyacheslav Starshinov	Soviet Union	1961-1971	79	64	31	95
31	Mats Sundin	Sweden	1990-2006	79	43	51	94
32	Saku Koivu	Finland	1993-2010	89	30	64	94
33	Milan Novy	Czechoslovakia	1975-1982	86	53	40	93
34	Alexei Kasatonov	Soviet Union	1980-1991	125	28	65	93
35	Nils Nilsson	Sweden	1956-1967	63	58	34	92
36	Ronald Pettersson	Sweden	1955-1967	85	49	43	92
37	Gerd Truntschka	West Germany / Germany	1979-1993	108	31	59	90
38	Miroslav Satan	Slovakia	1994-2014	117	47	42	89
39	Raimo Helminen	Finland	1984-2002	140	18	70	88
40	Igor Larionov	Soviet Union / Russia	1982-2002	103	36	51	87
41	Konstantin Loktev	Soviet Union	1957-1966	55	50	36	86
42	Ulf Sterner	Sweden	1960-1973	87	47	39	86
43	Dieter Hegen	West Germany / Germany	1982-1998	147	55	29	84
44	Vladimir Shadrin	Soviet Union	1970-1977	71	41	43	84
46	Viktor Zhluktov	Soviet Union	1976-1983	90	35	47	82
47	Wayne Gretzky	Canada	1981-1998	55	26	56	82
45	Ferdinand 'Pic' Cattini	Switzerland	1933-1949	60	53	28	81
48	Tord Lundström	Sweden	1965-1975	91	46	34	80
49	Evgeny Malkin	Russia	2005-2016	73	38	42	80
50	Daniel Alfredsson	Sweden	1995-2014	92	32	47	79

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As you can see, Maltsev is at the very top of the list, but now we take a look at the stats of Soviets vs. NA pros, and vs. Czechoslovaks. Maltsev looks a lot worse specifically compared to Mikhailov. Numbers were provided by "Namba 17" (Soviet players stats vs CSSR players), (Soviet players stats against NA professionals).

Soviets vs. Czechoslovakia (ranked by ppg):

	Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	GPG
1	Makarov	23	9	14	23	1,00	0,39
2	Mikhailov	24	8	14	22	0,92	0,33
3	Firsov	11	6	4	10	0,91	0,55
4	Balderis	11	7	3	10	0,91	0,64
5	Krutov	19	9	8	17	0,89	0,47
6	Petrov	23	10	10	20	0,87	0,43
7	B. Mayorov	7	3	3	6	0,86	0,43
8	Bykov	11	8	1	9	0,82	0,73
9	Kharlamov	24	10	8	18	0,75	0,42
10	Larionov	17	6	6	12	0,71	0,35
11	Starshinov	13	7	2	9	0,69	0,54
12	Kapustin	20	6	7	13	0,65	0,30
13	Shalimov	13	5	3	8	0,62	0,38
14	Kamensky	7	2	2	4	0,57	0,29
15	Maltsev	24	6	7	13	0,54	0,25
16	Vikulov	13	3	4	7	0,54	0,23
17	A. Yakushev	19	7	3	10	0,53	0,37
18	Shepelev	10	4	1	5	0,50	0,40
19	Shadrin	14	1	5	6	0,43	0,07
20	V.Golikov	12	2	3	5	0,42	0,17
21	Skvortsov	13	4	1	5	0,38	0,31
22	Zluktov	18	3	3	6	0,33	0,17
23	Khomutov	18	2	4	6	0,33	0,11
24	Anisin	6	0	1	1	0,17	0,00
25	Drozdetsky	9	1	0	1	0,11	0,11

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Soviets vs. North Americans (ranked by ppg):

#	Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	GPG
1	Krutov	27	18	16	34	1,26	0,67
2	Petrov	33	18	22	40	1,21	0,55
3	Kharlamov	39	19	28	47	1,21	0,49
4	Yakushev	31	21	14	35	1,13	0,68
5	Makarov	31	15	20	35	1,13	0,48
6	Varnakov	24	13	12	25	1,04	0,54
7	Kapustin	28	11	17	28	1,00	0,39
8	Bykov	25	11	13	24	0,96	0,44
9	Balderis	24	13	10	23	0,96	0,54
10	Mikhailov	40	20	16	36	0,90	0,50
11	Skvortsov	27	12	12	24	0,89	0,44
12	Shalimov	27	8	15	23	0,85	0,30
13	Maltsev	40	13	20	33	0,83	0,33
14	Larionov	22	6	12	18	0,82	0,27
15	Fetisov	31	8	17	25	0,81	0,26
16	Khomutov	27	8	13	21	0,78	0,30
17	Kasatonov	35	7	19	26	0,74	0,20
18	Shadrin	31	6	16	22	0,71	0,19
19	Anisin	34	11	13	24	0,71	0,32
20	Zhluktov	23	2	13	15	0,65	0,09
21	A.Golikov	23	8	7	15	0,65	0,35
22	Kovin	33	6	14	20	0,61	0,18
23	Vikulov	33	9	10	19	0,58	0,27
24	Lebedev	25	6	5	11	0,44	0,24

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Difference between Maltsev´ and Mikhailov´s scoring vs. NA is not that big (though Mikhailov´s is still better), but difference between Maltsev´ and Mikhailov´s scoring vs. CSSR is large and significant indeed.

On the other hand, unlike Mikhailov, Maltsev did not play most of his national team career on the top line, but rather mostly on the 2nd or 3rd line. Yes, he didn't play with bad players even then (e.g. Shadrin, Yakushev, Golikov bros, young Krutov, Drotzdetsky etc), but it's not quite the same as playing on the Soviets' top line with Kharlamov and Petrov year after year. That certainly had some effect on the numbers.

Secondly, although I agree that there is something there (even my own limited eye test tells me so) that Maltsev wasn't as good big game performer as Mikhailov and some other top stars, the raw numbers don't always tell the whole story. So I'd be slightly wary. And Maltsev's overall record in the World Championships (All-Star voting, Directorate award) is clearly superior to Mikhailov.

 

[DN28]

On the other hand, unlike Mikhailov, Maltsev did not play most of his national team career on the top line, but rather mostly on the 2nd or 3rd line. Yes, he didn't play with bad players even then (e.g. Shadrin, Yakushev, Golikov bros, young Krutov, Drotzdetsky etc), but it's not quite the same as playing on the Soviets' top line with Kharlamov and Petrov year after year. That certainly had some effect on the numbers.

Secondly, although I agree that there is something there (even my own limited eye test tells me so) that Maltsev wasn't as good big game performer as Mikhailov and some other top stars, the raw numbers don't always tell the whole story. So I'd be slightly wary. And Maltsev's overall record in the World Championships (All-Star voting, Directorate award) is clearly superior to Mikhailov.

Yes, that is something that should be mentioned and examined if Maltsev appeared in the following votes. Maltsev didn´t have stable linemates in the National team and I think it was more or less widely recognized at the time that it hurt his results and particularly his scoring numbers. And yet, he did become an all-time international scoring leader eventually, so that´s what´s going on for him..