Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17

[Kyle McMahon]

One difference to me between Salming and Leetch is that Salming seems to have been able to mostly keep his head above water on those awful 80's Leaf teams. Leetch kind of sunk along with the franchise in New York. And I'm not exactly sure how much of a pass we can give him for being on a bad team, considering that 2002 to 2004 Rangers team is considered one of the all-time underachievers for failing to even make the playoffs despite several star players on the roster. That said, Leetch was a star-level player pretty much from the beginning, so it's not like he's lacking for great seasons. Just a bit unusual to see a defenseman with that kind of career arc.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Except Karlsson and heck any Dman post expansion isn't going to get a top 5 Norris with a 12 assist season.

A top 5 Norris(I'm on my phone think it was a 3rd or 4th place finish)with 12 assists speaks more to the extreme weakness of the field rather than elite defense.

He was third in Norris and AS-2 scoring 12 assists in 61 games. His first positive plus minus season for years, though, but he also was penalized a lot more than previous years.

I don't that take seriously myself. Rather bizarre, gotta be one of the worst Norris-3 winners of all time.

 

[Canadiens1958]

One difference to me between Salming and Leetch is that Salming seems to have been able to mostly keep his head above water on those awful 80's Leaf teams. Leetch kind of sunk along with the franchise in New York. And I'm not exactly sure how much of a pass we can give him for being on a bad team, considering that 2002 to 2004 Rangers team is considered one of the all-time underachievers for failing to even make the playoffs despite several star players on the roster. That said, Leetch was a star-level player pretty much from the beginning, so it's not like he's lacking for great seasons. Just a bit unusual to see a defenseman with that kind of career arc.

Consider that Leetch suffered some serious injuries in his career.

 

[wetcoast]

I can only speak for myself but I am voting Gadsby #1 this round because IMO he is the best player listed for this round.

Fair enough that's what people should do

 

[wetcoast]

Let me put it this way. I disagree with your approach. You seem to be looking for negatives on Gadsby. I don't expect him to be up there with Harvey and Kelly but he deserves some credit for his accomplishments when he was competing with them. After all Harvey and Kelly were ranked very high in this project.

I think we should look at negatives as well as positives for all players.

Sometimes the differences are due to negatives for some players and lesser ones for others.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

One difference to me between Salming and Leetch is that Salming seems to have been able to mostly keep his head above water on those awful 80's Leaf teams. Leetch kind of sunk along with the franchise in New York. And I'm not exactly sure how much of a pass we can give him for being on a bad team, considering that 2002 to 2004 Rangers team is considered one of the all-time underachievers for failing to even make the playoffs despite several star players on the roster. That said, Leetch was a star-level player pretty much from the beginning, so it's not like he's lacking for great seasons. Just a bit unusual to see a defenseman with that kind of career arc.

I watched a lot of Rangers games at the time, as they were an in-market team for me.

Leetch was a player who relied on his speed. He was actually pretty good defensively in his relatively short prime - he used his speed to fly up and down ice making things happen at both ends. Used as a "straight #1" - #1 PP, #1 PK, top shutdown pairing at even stength. Won a Conn Smythe in that role. (Mike Keenan said that Pronger and Leetch were two "straight #1s" he coached. Interesting he didn't mention Mark Howe. - Sourced in the defensemen project)

When his speed started to leave him, he lost the ability to get back to defend when he took chances. As a result, he bled goals against like nobody's business (at least in the NHL - interesting that he was named an All-Star at the 2002 Olympics when partnered with Chelios again).

Probably shouldn't have kept playing so agressively after he lost the ability to get back quickly, but a lot of blame has to go to the Rangers, who were completely neglecting their blue line at the time, in a quest to bring in every high-priced aging forward. Just look at Leetch's ice-time in the back half of his career- it's absurd for a guy clearly on the decline. But it's not like the Rangers had better options (crazy to say about the highest payroll in the league, but it was mostly spent on past-their prime forwards).

In a way, his career curve is similar to a speedy goal-scoring winger. Only instead of seeing a decline in offense when his speed started to go, he sae a decline in defense

 

[quoipourquoi]

Second of all, if Leetch was 3rd best Ranger that year, who were the players that were better than him?

The league leader in Assists as well as the guy who started the year with 32 Goals and 64 Points in 50 Games before suffering back spasms down the stretch which happen to align with Leetch’s drop-off in production that year (seeing Leetch go from 1.09 points-per-game while his #1/1A Center was healthy to 0.65 in the final third of the season).

 

[quoipourquoi]

...and Mike Richter went something like .925 after Thanksgiving, including a 16-game undefeated streak where he was above .940 - again, despite the abysmal Rangers penalty kill for which Leetch was their #1 Defenseman - so maybe, like, 4th best Ranger in 1996-97.

But Leetch was better than Adam Graves, I guess.

 

[DN28]

Agreed. The 1974 and 1976 WHC All-Star team nods were clear choices in Martinec's favour, and although the 1977 and especially the 1975 tournament ASTs were somewhat less clear, apparently Mikhailov just wasn't that great in either tournament (for example, I know that Mikhailov and his line twice failed badly vs Sweden in 1977, which de facto cost them the world championship, whereas Martinec was an absolute key player and prolific scorer in the wins over USSR and vs Sweden in the medal round).
Like it has been mentioned, in the 1969-72 WHCs, Mikhailov wasn't anything special (though certainly good in 1969), and in 1978, Maltsev had one of his best later performances when playing with (and maybe mentoring?) his Dynamo Moscow teammates the Golikov brothers, and furthermore, would Mikhailov even have beaten Balderis at RW (in 1978)?
Also, if there had been All-Star selections at the Winter Olympics (1972, 1976, 1980), Mikhailov hardly would have gotten any nods; in 1972, he played partly injured (knee-injury, and according to a Finnish sports book, his other leg was never quite the same after that) and did not get many points, poor stats also in 1976 (but he did miss the 16-1 game vs Poland?), and in 1980 he was one of the scoring leaders but failed to score in the Miracle game, and no way he would have beaten Makarov for the AST.

For me, his consistency (scoring) is the most impressive thing about him. He was also a reliable performer against any opposition.

Regarding Mikhailovs WHC All-Star voting record I thought that it would be a good idea to look at how his overall voting record compares to the other top forwards. First here you have the voting record of Mikhailov. Note that when a player made the First All-Star Team but we don't have the exact vote count I have put that down as a Top 3 finish among forwards and when a player made the Second All-Star Team I have put it down as a top 6 finish. Then we can of course speculate on the actual voting finish based on the strenght of the players performance in the tournament.

Boris Mikhailov: Top 3 (1973), Top 3 (1979), 4th (1974), Top 6 (1978), 8th (1972) Tied for 12th (1971), Tied for 16th (1970)

I don´t really know what to think about Mikhailovs voting record. On the one hand it is a deep and strong voting record for only being a 2-time First Team All-Star. On the other hand I would say that it is a rather disappointing voting record for a player of Mikhailovs quality. Especially the sub-par results in 1969-1971. It is of course entirely possible that Mikhailov led both the 1973 and the 1979 votings considering that he was voted Best Forward by the Directorate in those tournaments (3-way tie in 1979). It is also entirely possible that Mikhailov did rather well in the 1975 and 1977 votings even if he did not make the All-Star team. But based on the data we have available I would say that Mikhailov probably does not quite belong in the Kharlamov/Petrov/Martinec tier when it comes to WHC All-Star voting but rather in the Nedomansky/Krutov tier.

For comparisons sake here are the voting records of the other 9 players which I would have in the top 10 when it comes to WHC All-Star voting among forwards. With some short commentary on each player.

Sergei Makarov: 1st (1982), 1st (1985), 1st (1986), 2nd (1987), 2nd (1989), 3rd (1981), Top 3 (1979), Top 3 (1983)

Makarovs WHC All-Star voting record is simply outstanding and it is not impossible that he led the forwards in the voting 5 times. This considering that he in the two years from which we don't have the voting result won the Directorate award in a 3-way tie in 1979 and was voted the All-Star team RW ahead of the Directorate award winner Lala in 1983. And even without speculating about his results in 1979 and 1983 further than that he almost certainly finished top 3 in the voting Makarov still clearly has the most impressive voting record among forwards. It is perhaps also worth noting that he in 1982 led the All-Star voting ahead of a certain Wayne Gretzky who finished in second place. So it would be difficult to complain about his top competition that tournament.

Anatoli Firsov: 1st (1967), 1st (1968), 1st (1971), 2nd (1969), 2nd (1970), 11th (1965)

Firsovs 1967-1971 stretch is along with Makarovs 1982-1986 stretch in my opinion the most impressive consecutive peak period when it comes to WHC All-Star voting. Firsovs five straight tournaments finishing top 2 in the voting during that 1967-1971 stretch is also something that only Makarov possibly managed to beat out between 1982 and 1989 (depending on how high he ranked in 1983). In fact outside of Makarov and Firsov no other forward even has five top 2 finishes in the voting consecutive or not. And the final time that Firsov led the voting in 1971 he had among the toughest top competition one could get in Europe consisting of peak Maltsev and Kharlamov who was just about to enter his peak.

Alexander Maltsev: 1st (1970), 1st (1972), 1st (1981), 2nd (1971), 3rd (1978), 6th (1974)

Maltsevs WHC All-Star voting record definitely belongs in the top tier along with Makarovs and Firsovs voting records. The two things that stands out to me with Maltsevs voting record is his peak in 1970-1972 where he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st over 3 tournaments and his outstanding elite longevity considering that he led the voting the first time in 1970 and the last time in 1981. No other forward even had so much time between their first and last top 3 finish although Makarov was rather close there with 1979-1989. The competition among forwards during Maltsevs peak 1970-1972 was also very high considering that he first was up against peak Firsov in 1970-1971 and then peak Kharlamov in 1972.

Valeri Kharlamov: 1st (1976), 2nd (1972), 3rd (1971), Top 3 (1973), 4th (1969), 7th (1970), 8th (1974)

For a player with "only" 3 First Team All-Star selections Kharlamovs WHC All-Star voting record really is very strong as he managed to finish top 3 in the voting four times and top 4 five times. That is as many top 3 finishes and more top 4 finishes than 4-time All-Stars like Martinec and Petrov. The only reason that Kharlamov does not have 4 First Team selections himself is that he was stuck behind peak Firsov at LW in 1971 which means that he did not make the team despite being third in the overall voting.

Vladimir Petrov: 2nd (1975), Top 3 (1973), Top 3 (1977), Top 3 (1979), 6th (1970), Tied for 7th (1971), 10th (1974)

As Petrovs 4 First Team selections already suggests his WHC All-Star voting record is very strong. Since we don´t have the voting results for 3 of the 4 tournaments when Petrov made the All-Star team it is difficult to know exactly how strong his voting record is though. But considering that Petrov never won the Directorates Best Forward award it does not seem that unlikely that Petrov never led the All-Star voting among forwards either. Considering that the Media All-Star vote and the Directorates vote relatively often had different selections as the top forward this is far from certain though. Whether Petrov ever led the voting or not I would still say that his voting record clearly belongs in the truly elite group. Especially considering that he also had some strong results outside of his First Team All-Star tournaments.

Vladimir Martinec: 1st (1974), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1975), Top 3 (1977), Tied for 9th (1972)

Martinec peak period in 1974-1977 is really very impressive with top 3 finishes at four straight tournaments. Four consecutive top 3 finishes is something that only Makarov and Firsov managed to beat out among forwards. The only problem with his voting record is that Martinec outside of that peak period did not add much of value compared to the other players with the strongest voting records. Still I would say that the strenght of that peak period firmly puts him among Kharlamov and Petrov in the second tier of players when it comes to WHC All-Star voting records.

Vaclav Nedomansky: 2nd (1974), 3rd (1969), 3rd (1970), 5th (1971), 7th (1965), Tied for 7th (1968)

Out of the players that we know for sure did not lead the WHC All-Star voting at any tournament Nedomansky clearly has the strongest voting record. Three times top 3, four times top 5 and six times top 7 is a very deep and strong voting record. With this said I personally don´t think that Nedomansky quite belongs in the Kharlamov/Petrov/Martinec tier of WHC All-Star voting records but rather the tier below them.

Vladimir Krutov: 1st (1987), 2nd (1986), Top 3 (1983), 5th (1985)

For being a 4-time First Team All-Star Krutovs voting record is not overly strong. Mainly due to his 1985 selection being a rather weak one with him only finishing 5th in the overall voting but still getting the LW spot on the All-Star team. Still three top 3 finishes and four top 5 finishes is a rather strong record. Especially when taking into account the strenght of his 1987 tournament where he dominated the voting.

Alexander Yakushev: 1st (1975), 3rd (1972), 3rd (1974)

Yakushev has a strong voting record for only being a 2-time First Team All-Star having three top 3 finishes including one first place finish. Just like Kharlamov once missed out on a place on the All-Star team due to being stuck behind peak Firsov at LW despite finishing top 3 in the overall voting Yakushev had the exact same thing happen to him in 1972 when he was stuck behind peak Kharlamov at LW. The only problem with Yakushevs voting record is that he outside of his peak in 1972-1975 did not get much voting support and the lack of more strong voting finishes is what in my opinion keeps Yakushev from belonging to the Nedomansky/Krutov/Mikhailov tier even if he is rather close to them.

Like I said earlier I think that Mikhailovs voting record definitely is a strong one for "only" being a 2-time First Team All-Star but I would still say that he belongs in the bottom half of the top 10 forwards when it comes to WHC All-Star voting.

We might as well do a revision of these AST data we have. Batis already looked at the elite and their AST record, I´ll take a closer look at Mikhailov´s championships specifically.

Most of the original data were taken from Finish hockey books and were posted by Sanf. (Link)
I´ve also contributed over the last year with some additional data extracted mainly from contemporary Czech hockey magazines and newspapers. (Link to the thread). And I haven´t gotten to post a little bit more from 1969-1971 yet. Let´s have a look:

WHC 1969, all-star team voting, forwards

Originally posted from Finish sources:
"Ulf Sterner 119, Anatoli Firsov 99, Vaclav Nedomansky 68 (nearest) Valeri Harlamov 40, Jaroslav Holik 32"

What I have from Gól magazine is almost the same with the exception of Holik brothers´ record and Nedomansky´.
RW: Nedomanský (67 votes), Kharlamov and Firsov (19)
C: Sterner (119), Jaroslav Holík (18), Nedomanský (11)
LW: Firsov (80), Kharlamov (21), Jiří Holík (14)

Nedo had 78 votes, ten more than per Finish source, and Finns probably made a mistake of summing up the votes of Jaroslav and Jiri Holik into one player. Regardless, it is still incomplete record but I think we can reasonably conclude that Mikhailov would have been named in magazine´s list had he gotten more than a couple of votes. At best, Mikhailov was voted as 7th best forward with less than 10 votes, in spite of being the 2nd best scorer of the tournament.



WHC 1970, all-star team voting, forwards

Originally posted from Finnish sources:
"Aleksander Maltsev 80, Anatoli Firsov 59, Vaclav Nedomansky 35, Vjatsjeslav Starsinov 12, Ulf Sterner 10, Vladimir Petrov 9, Valeri Harlamov 8, Lars Göran Nilsson 8, Tord Lundström 7, Häkan Wickberg 7, Anders Hedberg 5, Jaroslav Holik 3, Matti Murto 3, Vladimir Vikulov 3, Jiri Kochta 2, Krysztof Bialynicki 1, Jiri Holik 1, Boris Mihailov 1"

What I have from Gól magazine shows only minor differences in count of Maltsev´, Firsov´ and Nedomanský´s votes. It happened because Finnish source clearly discarded those fringe votes that these players received at wrong positions on the ballots.

RW: Maltsev (80 votes), Kharlamov and Vikulov (3), Firsov (1)
C: Nedomanský (35), Starshinov (12), Sterner (10), Petrov (9), Wickberg (7), Hedberg (4), Murto and Jar. Holík (3), Kochta and Maltsev (2)
LW: Firsov (59), L. G. Nilsson (8), Lundström (7), Kharlamov (5), Maltsev (3), Hedberg, Bialynicky, Jiří Holík, Nedomanský and Mikhailov (1)

It is a complete record and as we can see Mikhailov´s name appeared on one single ballot out of 87 handed out. (On a sidenote, I am impressed by seeing that Maltsev appeared on 85 out 87 possible ballots, almost 100%, I wonder if it´s not a record of some sorts.)



WHC 1971, all-star team voting, forwards

Originally posted from Finnish sources:
"Anatoli Firsov 44, Aleksandr Maltsev 36, Valeri Harlamov 18, Vladimir Vikulov 12, Vaclav Nedomansky 9, Gary Gambucci 7, Ivan Hlinka 6, Vladimir Petrov 6, Tord Lundström 3, Josef Cerny 3, Jiri Kochta 3, Ulf Sterner 2, Keith Christiansen 2, Boris Mihailov 2, Aleksandr Martinjuk 1, Lasse Oksanen 1, Jiri Holik 1"

Tip magazine lists almost the same names and number of votes with two exceptions: Maltsev is two votes down, and Martinec appears with one single vote.
Forwards: Firsov (44 votes), Maltsev (34), Kharlamov (18), Vikulov (12), Nedomanský (9), Gambucci (7), Hlinka and Petrov (6), Lundström, Černý and Kochta (3), Sterner, Christiansen and Mikhailov (2), Martinec, Oksanen and Jiří Holík (1)

It is complete record again, and we can see Mikhailov with very low media support.



WHC 1972, all-star team voting, forwards

Originally posted from Finnish sources:
"Aleksandr Maltsev 96, Valeri Harlamov 91, Aleksandr Jakushev 43, Jaroslav Holik 28, Vladimir Vikulov 28, Jiri Holik 22, Jan Klapac 12, Boris Mihailov 11, Lauri Mononen 10, Vladimir Martinec 10, Jiri Kochta 4, Juri Blinov 2, Richard Farda 2, Anders Hedberg 1, Björn Palmqvist 1, Alois Schloder 1"

No discrepancies this time, Gól magazine lists the players additionally by position though.
RW: Vikulov (25 votes), Kharlamov (21), Yakushev (14), Klapáč (12), Martinec (10), Mononen (9), Jiří Holík and Mikhailov (8), Jar. Holík (6), Kochta (3), Blinov (2), Schloder, Palmqvist and Maltsev (1)
C: Maltsev (94), Jar. Holík (22), Farda (2), Hedberg and Yakushev (1)
LW: Kharlamov (70), Yakushev (28), Jiří Holík (14), Mikhailov and Vikulov (3), Kochta, Mononen and Maltsev (1)

Mikhailov with 8th best voting record among forwards which is better than his previous tournaments but still outside the 2nd all-star team. Kharlamov as a 2nd AST right winger...



WHC 1973, all-star team voting, forwards

We only have the official trio of all-star forwards Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov. Mikhailov obtained Directoriate´s best forward award so I assume his 1st AST nod was rather strong. Only thing I have about this, is a number of voters which was fairly high: 283 writers.

WHC 1974, all-star team voting, forwards

Originally posted from Finnish sources:
"Vladimir Martinec 82, Vaclav Nedomansky 58, Aleksandr Jakushev 45, Boris Mihailov 44, Anders Hedberg 28, Aleksandr Maltsev 18, Veli-Pekka Ketola 16, Valeri Harlamov 15, Sergei Kapustin 7, Vladimir Petrov 6, Ivan Hlinka 5, Vladimir Shadrin 3, Willy Lindström 2, Esa Peltonen 2, Jiri Holik 1, Ulf Nilsson 1, Lasse Oksanen 1, Juhani Tamminen 1"

No discrepancies again, Československý sport lists the players additionally by position though.
RW: Martinec (59 votes), Mikhailov (37), Hedberg (5), Kharlamov (3), Maltsev, Petrov and Yakushev (2), Ulf Nilsson, Kapustin, Tamminen and Jiří Holík (1)
C: Nedomanský (57), Ketola (16), Maltsev (14), Hedberg (13), Hlinka and Yakushev (5), Shadrin (3), Petrov (2), Oksanen, Martinec and Mikhailov (1)
LW: Yakushev (38), Martinec (22), Kharlamov (12), Hedberg (10), Mikhailov and Kapustin (6), Petrov, Maltsev, Lindström and Peltonen (2), Nedomanský (1)

Mikhailov finished as 4th best vote-getter by one point, obviously a strong 2nd teamer. (as a sidenote, funny thing with Martinec: Československý sport presents the 2nd all-star team as official as the 1st team. A writer humorously notes that Martinec ended up as official 2nd AS team left winger in addition to his 1st AS team right wing spot...)



WHC 1975, all-star team voting, forwards

WHC 1975 All-Star Team (determined by 92 journalists):
Vladislav Tretiak (42 votes) – Valeri Vasiliev (69), Pekka Marjamäki (40) – Vladimír Martinec (38), Vladimir Petrov (60), Alexander Yakushev (73)

That´s the only thing we have. This time Martinec got the weakest support from 6 AST members, so Mikhailov could have been close but we don´t know...

WHC 1976, all-star team voting, forwards

WHC 1976 All-Star Team (determined by 192 journalists):
Jiří Holeček (159 votes) – Mats Waltin (56), František Pospíšil (111) – Vladimír Martinec (112), Milan Nový (71), Valeri Kharlamov (124)

That is again maximum we´ve so far found out about AST voting of this championship. Both Martinec and Kharlamov with distinctive support from the media. We don´t know how well Mikhailov did in the voting.

WHC 1977, all-star team voting, forwards

Similarly to 1973, there is no information out there besides names. Trio of forwards appearing on all-star team: Balderis-Petrov-Martinec. Balderis won Directoriate best forward award. No information about Mikhailov.

WHC 1978, all-star team voting, forwards

WHC 1978 All-Star Teams:
118 journalists participated with their ballots. I have the number of votes for the 1st team but only list of names of the second team without votes.

1st Team: Jiří Holeček (79 votes) – Jiří Bubla (39), Vyacheslav Fetisov (69) – Alexander Maltsev (23), Ivan Hlinka (58), Sergei Kapustin (60)
2nd Team: Daniel Bouchard – Valeri Vasiliev, Zinetula Bilyaletdinov – Boris Michailov, Marcel Dionne, František Černík

Mikhailov good enough for the 2nd all-star team. However, I´ve checked the article where I found this information. Writer complaints about Hlinka not winning Directoriate´s award instead of Dionne, since "in the voting of the writers he [Dionne] got only 50 votes though, while Hlinka 58 and wonderful Kapustin 60..." Based on the fact that Maltsev as 1st all-star RW got only 23 votes, Mikhailov 2nd all-star RW placement had to be one of the weaker ones. He had to have more than double less votes than Hlinka, Kapustin and Dionne. At best, Mikhailov was voted as 5th forward.



WHC 1979, all-star team voting, forwards

Nothing more than top 3 forwards named as All-Stars: Mikhailov-Petrov-Makarov; and top 3 forwards named by Directoriate: Mikhailov-Paiement-Makarov. Although some of us discussed this WHC before and we´ve also found out different versions of these trios, but Mikhailov was always in it so discrepancies don´t affect him. Together with the information from first year of Izvestia Trophy voting (which Mikhailov won), we can surely conclude that this was strong and well deserved placement. According to Československý sport, more than 300 writers voted.

It is puzzling to see the two RWers on all-star team, this wasn´t otherwise happening. It is also weird coincidence that we don´t have any additional information about voting from these three championships: 1973 (held in Mosccow), 1977 (held in Vienna), 1979 (held in Moscow). So Soviet organizers were, for whatever reason, particularly secretive about the final result, which hurts Mikhailov in my opinion, since I think his AST voting record in ´73 and ´79 would have been probably dominant. It is also interesting to realize that the only two championships where Mikhailov was honoured as an all-star and best forward came in both cases from tournaments held in Moscow, in his territory, so to speak. This is a proof that he was able to withstand pressure during mentally challenging situations.
________________________

Overall, Mikhailov´s international AST voting record is weak, there is just no other way around.. His selling points are:

1) His scoring reliability. As I´ve written in my previous long post, Mikhailov finished in top 10 tournament scoring 14 times out of 16! He had only two tournaments (´72 and ´76 Olympics) where he didn´t produce.

His career international scoring numbers are not any weaker than numbers of Soviet forwards already added to the List:
Valeri Kharlamov (1969-1980): 123 games / 89 goals /102 assists / 191 points / 1.55 ppg
Sergei Makarov (1978-1991): 145 games / 82 goals / 100 assists / 182 points / 1.26 ppg
Boris Mikhailov (1969-1980): 120 games / 108 goals / 72 assists / 180 points / 1.50 ppg
Anatoli Firsov (1964-1972): 67 games / 66 goals / 51 assists / 117 points / 1.75 ppg

2) His unique style of play and personal characteristics. I´ll try to gather and post few quotes about this later today, mostly stuff that´s on internet in English-written hockey websites, but I´ll also try to find quotes about Mikhailov from Karel Gut and Jiří Holeček, both had some nice things to say about him.

 

[VMBM]

2) His unique style of play and personal characteristics. I´ll try to gather and post few quotes about this later today, mostly stuff that´s on internet in English-written hockey websites, but I´ll also try to find quotes about Mikhailov from Karel Gut and Jiří Holeček, both had some nice things to say about him.

That'd be interesting.

It's not like Mikhailov was the goalies' favourite player, considering his work near and sometimes even IN the crease. Didn't also Holecek call Mikhailov "very dirty" in some documentary? That of course doesn't mean that he didn't still consider him a great player.

 

[DN28]

That'd be interesting.

It's not like Mikhailov was the goalies' favourite player, considering his work near and sometimes even IN the crease. Didn't also Holecek call Mikhailov "very dirty" in some documentary? That of course doesn't mean that he didn't still consider him a great player.

Exactly, "nice" was an ironic statement. When he´s somewhere at public event, Holecek frequently tells the story about his on-ice encounters with Mikhailov. I´ll try to find an exact link and quote, if not, I´ll just reproduce it how I remember it.

 

[DN28]

Mikhailov quotes

Taken from his 2017 ATD bio:

Vladimir Lutchenko:
"Boris was always a leader, both in the national team and CSKA. ... he was a model for us. He was a winner, he hated to lose even while playing soccer or basketball on practices. You couldn't play in a slipshod manner with him. Boris was a true capitan. When we came to SS-72, we were loosing in the first game 0:2. Boris said then 'Guys, let's get it together. Our whole country is watching us!'"

Anatoli Tarasov:
"No one could work, giving it all, like Mikhailov. There were no meaningless games to him, he never rested himself."
(...)
"He [Mikhailov] did not shy away tough physical play. Probably, he was the first Russian forward, who played that tough, especially, in the slot."

Sergei Gonchar:
"He [Mikhailov] was not flashy, but he scored almost all goals... He came in the slot and scored from rebounds. He didn't care if he would be hurt, he just repeated it game after game and that's why he is respected that much in Russia. Besides that, Mikhailov was a true-born leader."

Boris Mikhailov:
"I never forgave. If you hurt me, I'll find a moment and hurt you."

Swedish newspapers Aftonbladet:
"Boris Mikhailov - tough, mean, speedy, probably, not that flashy, but, without doubts, sweet dream of any coach."

The Red Machine:
"Mikhailov, who symbolized the evil empire for a lot of Canadians with his style of play, was atypical of the Russian players in his desire to set himself in front of the net, take the hits, get the garbage goals."

Phil Esposito:
"(Mikhailov is) one of the dirtiest players I've ever played against."

Joe Pelletier, source:
"Mikhailov was surprisingly 'Canadian' in his approach to hockey. The Soviets prided themselves on being the opposite of North American hockey, yet the ruthless Mikhailov is remembered as a guy who loved to mix it up and go to the corners, digging for loose pucks. He had a knack for scoring important and clinching goals, more often than not they were by banging for loose pucks and scoring 'garbage goals.' Anything but elegant or graceful, he looked almost clumsy compared to his highly polished line mates. Yet his dedication to training won over national team head coach Anatoli Tarasov and all of his teammates. He was the natural leader of many great Soviet squads and always gave 100%. In perhaps his finest moment, Mihailov was named as the Most Valuable Player in the 1979 Challenge Cup between the Soviet Red Army and the NHL All Stars."
(...)
"Canadians never came to like Mikhailov. In fact they singled him out as perhaps the one player they hated the most during Hockey's 'Cold War.' While Canadians were awed by Tretiak's goaltending and fascinated with the skill and passing of the likes Kharlamov and Petrov, Mikhailov sticks out in Canadian memories as the man who kicked out at Gary Bergman during the 1972 Summit Series. During the immense emotion of the tournament Mikhailov had broken from Soviet thinking and showed rare emotion by committing hockey's cardinal sin, kicking at another player. Bergman was cut badly."

Karel Gut (CSSR coach, 1974-80), Malá encyklopedie ledního hokeje, published in 1985. Boris Mikhailov´s description, p. 247-248:
"He [Mikhailov] was a longtime captain of CSKA and National team. Mentally strong player, leading character of the team, forward with extraordinary playing effect. Tirelessly forechecking, hard-working; playing in the slot, from where he most frequently scored goals, was his biggest advantage."

Jiří Holeček speaks about his rivalry with Boris Mikhailov, source:
"It pleased me that even after 40 years 'it' left him with some memories, that means 'it' was effective. He [Mikhailov] was nasty son of a bitch. As I was standing in the goal, he always skated from behind and, for instance, he hit my stick which then went up. And some slapshot from distance, from blueline was released at me, puck along the ice and I didn´t have the stick on ice. Now it [the puck] goes through me and everyone says: 'Phhh, where does he have that stick? Why doesn´t he have it on ice? He let a [soft] goal in...' And that was horribly pissing me off! Or he skated to me and kicked my skates from behind, and I laid on my back, I was laying and got a goal. 'Ugh, he´s flopping there in the goal...' So I said 'enough'! It won´t happen again. And as he appeared around me, going to do something, and they haven´t shoot yet, I took my stick this way [in both hands like an ax] and I slashed him accross his legs. He started yelling: 'Holeček, what´re you doin´?' And me: 'Shit, you idiot!' I was talking with them [Soviets] this way. And it pleases me, that after 40 years he still remembers it. How I was beating him for these dirty tricks he did to me. I was never doing this with anybody else, only with him particularly."

This Holeček´s quote really provides an insight into how Mikhailov´s style of play caused concrete troubles to goaltenders. Last, bolded, sentence really hammers the point home, the significance of it.

 

[pappyline]

I think we should look at negatives as well as positives for all players.

Sometimes the differences are due to negatives for some players and lesser ones for others.

My point probably wasn't clear. Of course we should look at both negatives and positives, My point was that sometimes people base their opinions on pretty flimsy evidence. For example; "Gadsby scored a lot of points on bad defensive teams, therefore, he was bad defensively". I personally think that is a reach.

 

[wetcoast]

My point probably wasn't clear. Of course we should look at both negatives and positives, My point was that sometimes people base their opinions on pretty flimsy evidence. For example; "Gadsby scored a lot of points on bad defensive teams, therefore, he was bad defensively". I personally think that is a reach.

Speaking for myself the biggest problem we have with players like Gadsby is that there also isn't a ton of evidence either way speaking to his defensive game.

The Shore example with limited film earlier in the project also was revealing.

His play looked somewhat erratic and unstructured at times, something his legendary quotes didn't mention.

Eye tests from different viewers is also an extremely difficult way to go and I'll just mention the Scotty Bowman list of the top Canadian players of all time list in that regard.

But you do have a point as the majority of the players in this project seem to some from teams that won alot, which is to be expected to some degree but.......

Maybe Gadsby suffers from the Marcel Dionne treatment as their teams just weren't very god so people project that more on the player than the team situation.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The league leader in Assists as well as the guy who started the year with 32 Goals and 64 Points in 50 Games before suffering back spasms down the stretch which happen to align with Leetch’s drop-off in production that year (seeing Leetch go from 1.09 points-per-game while his #1/1A Center was healthy to 0.65 in the final third of the season).

Leetch was +31, the league leader in assists was a +12. Back spasm man was also +12. That's a significant difference for players on the same team.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

...and Mike Richter went something like .925 after Thanksgiving, including a 16-game undefeated streak where he was above .940 - again, despite the abysmal Rangers penalty kill for which Leetch was their #1 Defenseman - so maybe, like, 4th best Ranger in 1996-97.

But Leetch was better than Adam Graves, I guess.

That's funny, because you hear a lot of people say your goalie needs to be your #1 penalty killer.

From what I recall of seeing the Rangers then, Messier was the primary PK forward. I guess he thought he was still with the 80's Oilers because he was still offense-first even when short-handed. Would say Messier was a bigger factor in poor PK than either Richter or Leetch.

1996-97 Rangers, best player, Brian Leetch.

 

[MXD]

My point probably wasn't clear. Of course we should look at both negatives and positives, My point was that sometimes people base their opinions on pretty flimsy evidence. For example; "Gadsby scored a lot of points on bad defensive teams, therefore, he was bad defensively". I personally think that is a reach.

...I think the point is mostly that, had Gadsby been better defensively, he'd probably have fared better at individual awards.

And then you'd reply that he was up against Kelly and Harvey most of the time, and that he doesn't have to meet that kind of standard at this point in the project, and you'd be right. Still... having never seen Gadsby play, it's hard to project him as any better than "merely good" defensively. Where that puts him vs. Leetch and Salming is up to everyone.

There's also the somewhat tricky issue that the average team faced by Gadsby was much better than those faced by Leetch and Salming (... and the average team on which Gadsby played for was relatively weaker than those Salming (...or maybe not?), and especially Leetch, played for).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I watched a lot of Rangers games at the time, as they were an in-market team for me.

Leetch was a player who relied on his speed. He was actually pretty good defensively in his relatively short prime - he used his speed to fly up and down ice making things happen at both ends. Used as a "straight #1" - #1 PP, #1 PK, top shutdown pairing at even stength. Won a Conn Smythe in that role. (Mike Keenan said that Pronger and Leetch were two "straight #1s" he coached. Interesting he didn't mention Mark Howe. - Sourced in the defensemen project)

When his speed started to leave him, he lost the ability to get back to defend when he took chances. As a result, he bled goals against like nobody's business (at least in the NHL - interesting that he was named an All-Star at the 2002 Olympics when partnered with Chelios again).

Probably shouldn't have kept playing so agressively after he lost the ability to get back quickly, but a lot of blame has to go to the Rangers, who were completely neglecting their blue line at the time, in a quest to bring in every high-priced aging forward. Just look at Leetch's ice-time in the back half of his career- it's absurd for a guy clearly on the decline. But it's not like the Rangers had better options (crazy to say about the highest payroll in the league, but it was mostly spent on past-their prime forwards).

In a way, his career curve is similar to a speedy goal-scoring winger. Only instead of seeing a decline in offense when his speed started to go, he sae a decline in defense

Rangers decision to make Leetch captain after Messier left did him no favors either. Not a natural leader, seemed like he felt obligated to try to do too much.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

...I think the point is mostly that, had Gadsby been better defensively, he'd probably have fared better at individual awards.

And then you'd reply that he was up against Kelly and Harvey most of the time, and that he doesn't have to meet that kind of standard at this point in the project, and you'd be right. Still... having never seen Gadsby play, it's hard to project him as any better than "merely good". Where that puts him vs. Leetch and Salming is up to everyone.

Gadsby was a 7 time all-star selection (3 times first team). That's got to be better than merely good.

Also had 9 seasons where he played every game. Very impressive for that era.

 

[MXD]

Gadsby was a 7 time all-star selection (3 times first team). That's got to be better than merely good.

Also had 9 seasons where he played every game. Very impressive for that era.

... Will edit my post, because there's clearly a word missing.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Brian Leetch... I see that his career has the shape of the career of a scoring Forward, kinda.

Just a bit unusual to see a defenseman with that kind of career arc.

In a way, his career curve is similar to a speedy goal-scoring winger.

Agreed, then(!)

I guess I can more easily find extenuating circumstances when it comes to the decline of Brian Leetch. For one thing, he was pro-ready out-of-the-box. [That said, the closest thing we have to a "no-assembly-required" guy this round is STILL Fedorov.] Secondly, his Rangers teams who were bleeding Goals Against there in the early 2000s did so as a team-effort. Perhaps 2000-01 is a "farther-shores" example of what was in-play then. That year, the Rangers topped the league is Goals Against by being next-to-last in the NHL in Shots Allowed while also being next-to-last in Save%. All this time, Leetch still had Alpha-Deployment for Even-Strength, Power Play, and Penalty Kill, and was still a top-flight artillery-piece on the man-advantage.

War-time, trapped-in-minors, lock-out(s) and contract disputes have all brought us face-to-face with the idea of "Great-Hockey-Player-Denied-Means-to-Demonstrate-Greatness." Well, maybe we should add another layer to this- denied the means to fully display greatness on account of deployment-abuse.

Don't think I'm overstating the case by saying that if one takes away Brian Leetch from the Rangers, hockey fans who live in my current area would probably still be chanting "Nineteen-Forty" to New York City's team.

To continue on the topic of Defensemen, biggest change for me is that I'm more sure than I was before concerning the gap between Bill Gadsby and Borje Salming. Again- not so much down on Salming as much as I'm up a bit on Gadsby. The sustained quality seems easier to demonstrate. Gadsby has missed enough time that it could be interesting to do a "with/without" for him. I don't think I need to resort to that to satisfy myself that Gadsby's the better option... but if this conversation continues up to St. Patrick's Day, I might run this one myself, to see what comes of it.

Speaking of which- how do we feel about this? Is there enough meat left on the bone that we'd benefit from another week of discussion about this set of nominees?! I could play it either way. What say you? Panelists? Project Adminstrator(s)?!?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Agreed, then(!)

I guess I can more easily find extenuating circumstances when it comes to the decline of Brian Leetch. For one thing, he was pro-ready out-of-the-box. [That said, the closest thing we have to "no-assembly-required" guy this round is STILL Fedorov.] Secondly, his Rangers teams who were bleeding Goals Against there in the early 2000s did so as a team-effort. Perhaps 2000-01 is a "farther-shores" example of what was in-play then. That year, the Rangers topped the league is Goals Against by being next-to-last in the NHL in Shots Allowed while also being next-to-last in Save%. All this time, Leetch still had Alpha-Deployment for Even-Strength, Power Play, and Penalty Kill, and was still a top-flight artillery-piece on the man-advantage.

War-time, trapped-in-minors, lock-out(s) and contract disputes have all brought us face-to-face with the idea of "Great-Hockey-Player-Denied-Means-to-Demonstrate-Greatness." Well, maybe we should add another layer to this- denied the means to fully display greatness on account of deployment-abuse.

Don't think I'm overstating the case by saying that if one takes away Brian Leetch from the Rangers, hockey fans who live in my current area would probably still be chanting "Nineteen-Forty" to New York City's team.

To continue on the topic of Defensemen, biggest change for me is that I'm more sure than I was before concerning the gap between Bill Gadsby and Borje Salming. Again- not so much down on Salming as much as I'm up a bit on Gadsby. The sustained quality seems easier to demonstrate. Gadsby has missed enough time that it could be interesting to do a "with/without" for him. I don't think I need to resort to that to satisfy myself that Gadsby's the better option... but if this conversation continues up to St. Patrick's Day, I might run this one myself, to see what comes of it.

Speaking of which- how do we feel about this? Is there enough meat left on the bone that we'd benefit from another week of discussion about this set of nominees?! I could play it either way. What say you? Panelists? Project Adminstrator(s)?!?

Great timing.

I just voted.

 

[Batis]

WHC 1978, all-star team voting, forwards


Mikhailov good enough for the 2nd all-star team. However, I´ve checked the article where I found this information. Writer complaints about Hlinka not winning Directoriate´s award instead of Dionne, since "in the voting of the writers he [Dionne] got only 50 votes though, while Hlinka 58 and wonderful Kapustin 60..." Based on the fact that Maltsev as 1st all-star RW got only 23 votes, Mikhailov 2nd all-star RW placement had to be one of the weaker ones. He had to have more than double less votes than Hlinka, Kapustin and Dionne. At best, Mikhailov was voted as 5th forward.

Very interesting. Thank you for this addition. I will update my post considering that we now know that Maltsev at best was 4th in the voting in 1978.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Great timing.

I just voted.

The Head Project Administrator had previously green-lighted a policy of allowing the editing of one's Vote prior to the agreed-upon deadline if subsequent conversations caused you to reconsider your placings.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

...and Mike Richter went something like .925 after Thanksgiving, including a 16-game undefeated streak where he was above .940 - again, despite the abysmal Rangers penalty kill for which Leetch was their #1 Defenseman - so maybe, like, 4th best Ranger in 1996-97.

But Leetch was better than Adam Graves, I guess.

I decided to check and see if the Rangers players voted on Team MVP like some other teams do. And they do!

Leetch was voted by his teammates Team MVP in 1996-97.

Overall, he was voted Team MVP 6 times - in 1988-89, 1990-91, 1996-97, 1998-99, 2000-01 and 2002-03. The last few I'd take with a grain of salt because the team was terrible.

Somewhat interesting, in his best season (1991-92, beat a historically strong field of defensemen in Norris voting by a landslide), Messier was voted Team MVP. That was the year Messier won the Hart in a landslide.

Source: List of New York Rangers award winners - Wikipedia