Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 13

[Canadiens1958]

What do we make of the fact that Clint Benedict and Roy Worters both had seasons with significant Hart Trophy support pre-forward pass? Evidently observers felt that strong play at the position had high value in the handful of years leading up to forward pass liberalization.

True. Still it should be recognized that under such circumstances the mobility required of a goalie was de-emphasized.

Similar to the trapezoid rule.

 

[Michael Farkas]

What do we make of the fact that Clint Benedict and Roy Worters both had seasons with significant Hart Trophy support pre-forward pass? Evidently observers felt that strong play at the position had high value in the handful of years leading up to forward pass liberalization.

I think that's a good prompt. I don't think we need to make anything specific out of it, especially, vis-a-vis my point...but we can, I'm open to ideas...

My derision of the position in that time doesn't preclude players from being good at it, per se. I'm sure there were some guys that had it down better than others...I get some impression that some goaltenders (most?) were more Craig Ludwig than Carey Price...as you hear about their style, some of them (particularly in the West I feel like) charging out to the boards and Hasek'ing attackers, goalies rushing the puck (didn't someone like Lehman or Holmes claim to score a goal once or some noise?)...you couldn't go down to the ice until the 1910's, so you really didn't have any particular "advantage" over just another defenseman (he says broadly).

I've seen film of Tiny Thompson and Frank Brimsek, they seem to look the part...even more than some that come later than them perhaps...

So we need to kind of sift out the broken glass from the sand here...we gotta piece together the picture if we don't have a ready-made picture to look at...

We talk about how varied the praise is...a number of guys get called the best pre-1930 and we sure as hell can't take the lot of them, so how are you going to single one out from the rest so far? The stats don't seem to readily match the performance (see: the lack of praise for Alec Connell, and even to an extent, George Hainsworth). You have guys that don't play the position, just stepping into it, in big spots, and performing above the level expected of a player playing that position (Clancy, Patrick) then conversely, at lower levels, guys who did switch (Garner, Thalberg, Crisp how poor they were at being one vs the other [skater or goalie] at a level closer to beer league than the NHL). The accounts of how the game is played suggests that the position didn't really modernize for some time to the point where it could be more respectable (in the same way that we're not in a rush to include the best goalies from the late 70's and 80's, because we saw them and their transient, hole-filled ways, we shouldn't be in a hurry here either just because they have the protection of not being caught on film).

One thing that I did find curious, as it relates to your point, is that there is a noteworthy dearth of Hart support for goaltenders for a good 10 or 15 years after the players you named...I wonder what we make of that too? Goaltenders failing to adjust to new rules? New styles? Did the position regress (as it did from the 1950's and 60's into the 1980's before recovering again) as a whole? It's not until Brimsek comes along that anyone gives a goalie the time of day for MVP if I'm not mistaken...that's a pretty long run I think...

 

[DannyGallivan]

I think that's a good prompt. I don't think we need to make anything specific out of it, especially, vis-a-vis my point...but we can, I'm open to ideas...

My derision of the position in that time doesn't preclude players from being good at it, per se. I'm sure there were some guys that had it down better than others...I get some impression that some goaltenders (most?) were more Craig Ludwig than Carey Price...as you hear about their style, some of them (particularly in the West I feel like) charging out to the boards and Hasek'ing attackers, goalies rushing the puck (didn't someone like Lehman or Holmes claim to score a goal once or some noise?)...you couldn't go down to the ice until the 1910's, so you really didn't have any particular "advantage" over just another defenseman (he says broadly).

I've seen film of Tiny Thompson and Frank Brimsek, they seem to look the part...even more than some that come later than them perhaps...

So we need to kind of sift out the broken glass from the sand here...we gotta piece together the picture if we don't have a ready-made picture to look at...

We talk about how varied the praise is...a number of guys get called the best pre-1930 and we sure as hell can't take the lot of them, so how are you going to single one out from the rest so far? The stats don't seem to readily match the performance (see: the lack of praise for Alec Connell, and even to an extent, George Hainsworth). You have guys that don't play the position, just stepping into it, in big spots, and performing above the level expected of a player playing that position (Clancy, Patrick) then conversely, at lower levels, guys who did switch (Garner, Thalberg, Crisp how poor they were at being one vs the other [skater or goalie] at a level closer to beer league than the NHL). The accounts of how the game is played suggests that the position didn't really modernize for some time to the point where it could be more respectable (in the same way that we're not in a rush to include the best goalies from the late 70's and 80's, because we saw them and their transient, hole-filled ways, we shouldn't be in a hurry here either just because they have the protection of not being caught on film).

One thing that I did find curious, as it relates to your point, is that there is a noteworthy dearth of Hart support for goaltenders for a good 10 or 15 years after the players you named...I wonder what we make of that too? Goaltenders failing to adjust to new rules? New styles? Did the position regress (as it did from the 1950's and 60's into the 1980's before recovering again) as a whole? It's not until Brimsek comes along that anyone gives a goalie the time of day for MVP if I'm not mistaken...that's a pretty long run I think...

This is the History of Hockey equivalent of telling the emperor that he's naked. I agree with your points.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Meh, let's not make it anything that it's not. Let's just have the conversation to the point that it serves to make our list stronger. I have certain (non-linear) concerns about certain eras and certain occurrences therein, that is not limited to this specific tiff I have with goaltending from 100 years ago.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We talk about how varied the praise is...a number of guys get called the best pre-1930

I'm calling BS here. I've read numerous newspaper articles from the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s focusing on who was considered the best-ever pre-1930 goalie, and it bascially comes down to 3 names - Vezina, Lehman, and Benedict, with Vezina the most mentioned by a good margin.

The Lehman supporters were generally involved in the Western leagues and rarely watched the NHA/NHL where Vezina played. And the Benedict supporters almost all start with, "I know almost everyone thinks Vezina was better, but..."

Look at the list of names who voted Vezina the best ever as of 1925. IMO, the MacLeans list is at least as valauble a record of contemporary opinion as the Hart and All Star records we use to evaluate later players.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Perhaps you're right, TDMM...just having the conversation.

To that, I say:

Riley Hern: "it's clear that he was one of the best in the world at the turn of the century."

"Peerless" Percy LeSueur: "the Silver Seven quickly acquired the services of the day's greatest goalie"​

Hugh Lehman: "the best goaltender in the game"
Georges Vezina "Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; " - One of those best ever polls
Hap Holmes "Hap Holmes truly was one of the best goaltenders in the world in his long, 15 year career. He was arguably the best goalie in the PCHA for six straight years."
Clint Benedict: "Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known"
John Ross Roach: "Roach, considered one of the best goalies in the National Hockey League"
Alec Connell: "Tommy Gorman termed Connell, the "greatest of them all"."
Roy Worters: "Roy Worters, goaltender, declared by experts one of the greatest net guardians the game ever has known. "
George Hainsworth: "Saskatoon net guardian, who is considered to be the greatest in western hockey."
Charlie Gardiner: "Charlie Gardiner is the greatest goalkeeper hockey fans ever saw" "Gardiner is even better than Hughie Lehman, known as "Eagle Eye' was in his prime"

I'm not saying that there isn't some variance in other eras...but it's pretty easy to unearth the superlatives of goaltenders of this era I feel like. So, unless there was a bunch of Wayne Gretzkys back then just claiming that a bunch of Vitali Yachmenev's and Ales Hemsky's were the best, I don't know how much we can really, truly, confidently make of this haha...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Perhaps you're right, TDMM...just having the conversation.

To that, I say:

Riley Hern: "it's clear that he was one of the best in the world at the turn of the century."

"Peerless" Percy LeSueur: "the Silver Seven quickly acquired the services of the day's greatest goalie"​

Hugh Lehman: "the best goaltender in the game"
Georges Vezina "Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; " - One of those best ever polls
Hap Holmes "Hap Holmes truly was one of the best goaltenders in the world in his long, 15 year career. He was arguably the best goalie in the PCHA for six straight years."
Clint Benedict: "Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known"
John Ross Roach: "Roach, considered one of the best goalies in the National Hockey League"
Alec Connell: "Tommy Gorman termed Connell, the "greatest of them all"."
Roy Worters: "Roy Worters, goaltender, declared by experts one of the greatest net guardians the game ever has known. "
George Hainsworth: "Saskatoon net guardian, who is considered to be the greatest in western hockey."
Charlie Gardiner: "Charlie Gardiner is the greatest goalkeeper hockey fans ever saw" "Gardiner is even better than Hughie Lehman, known as "Eagle Eye' was in his prime"

I'm not saying that there isn't some variance in other eras...but it's pretty easy to unearth the superlatives of goaltenders of this era I feel like. So, unless there was a bunch of Wayne Gretzkys back then just claiming that a bunch of Vitali Yachmenev's and Ales Hemsky's were the best, I don't know how much we can really, truly, confidently make of this haha...

Making your point with the above ranging from Hern to Connell, roughly 1905 to 1935. Reader is never given the criteria for being the best and how each goalie rates. Just proclamations.

 

[BenchBrawl]

For Benedict we have direct evidence in my Ottawa Dynasty posts that he was instrumental for the dynasty (20, 21, 23).My posts focused on direct comparison with his teammates, so I don't see how it could be mistaken.

 

[Canadiens1958]

For Benedict we have direct evidence in my Ottawa Dynasty posts that he was instrumental for the dynasty (20, 21, 23).My posts focused on direct comparison with his teammates, so I don't see how it could be mistaken.

Instrumental and being the appropriate goalie for a team is not the same as being the best at the position.

Best examples, Bower and Worsley, 1960s Leafs and Canadiens.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Instrumental and being the appropriate goalie for a team is not the same as being the best at the position.

Best examples, Bower and Worsley, 1960s Leafs and Canadiens.

True, but I just meant that Benedict's contributions shows that goalies were not less valuable in that era.

 

[Canadiens1958]

True, but I just meant that Benedict's contributions shows that goalies were not less valuable in that era.

True.Value of goalies is determined differently when looking at two game total goal series vs best of multiple best of 3 or 5 or 7 games series.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Lots of different discussion points to consider, certainly. Another point in Vezina's favour specifically is that the Canadiens coveted him right away, making efforts to sign him to a pro contract after just one exhibition game it appears. Of course, that may also just be more evidence that the incumbent establishment of goaltenders (which did include Hall of Famers) was not particularly impressive.

Irrelevant but still interesting fact that I discovered just yesterday: Vezina only had two children. The story of him fathering over 20 children (which didn't seem completely unbelievable in pre-birth control Roman Catholic society) was apparently just made up. I recall this being presented as fact in old publications and maybe even the Legends of Hockey TV series from the 1990s.

 

[wetcoast]

Making your point with the above ranging from Hern to Connell, roughly 1905 to 1935. Reader is never given the criteria for being the best and how each goalie rates. Just proclamations.

Isn't this the case for most historical proclamations...even as recently with Nieddermeyer and Toews?

There are almost never detailed criteria on why any player gets certain credit or acclaim.

We saw that in the wierd Scotty Bowman ranking of the top 100 Canadian players of all time.

 

[Vilica]

In the interests of continued contribution, despite my hypothesis pertaining more about forwards than defense, I went through both Earl Seibert and Tim Horton's team splits. Tim Horton's will be in this post, and Seibert's in a separate one. I was going to withhold Horton's post-expansion splits initially, given his 1000 game sample size prior to expansion, but since he did have the 2 AS-1 seasons post-expansion, I'll include them as well. Horton's pre-expansion splits are remarkably consistent, as he averaged about the same versus every team except the Rangers, where he had nearly 20 additional assists over his 15 full seasons - basically an extra assist against them a year.

Tim Horton O6 Era

	52-53	66-67		Total
	Games	Goals	Assists	Points	+/-	Shots
BOS	191	20	53	73	57	233
CHI	197	19	53	72	16	200
DET	197	20	49	69	33	237
MTL	198	15	53	68	-22	226
NYR	199	17	70	87	28	238
TOR	0	0	0	0	0	0
	982	91	278	369	112	1134
		0.093	0.283	0.376		1.155

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tim Horton

BOS		0.105	0.277	0.382
CHI		0.096	0.269	0.365
DET		0.102	0.249	0.350
MTL		0.076	0.268	0.343
NYR		0.085	0.352	0.437

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In terms of Home/Road splits, nothing really stands out, except that Horton was exactly even at Home vs Montreal, while being a big plus against the other 4. He was also a minus against Chicago and New York on the road, while being a plus versus Boston and Detroit.

Here's Horton expansion splits in full - in his 2 AS-1 seasons right after expansion, he basically put up half his points against O6 teams and half against expansion, and in the first year half and half for plus/minus, while in the second year he was -2 vs O6 teams and +16 against expansion teams.

	67-68	73-74		Total
	Games	Goals	Assists	Points	+/-	Shots
ATL	9	0	2	2	9	16
BOS	38	1	8	9	-15	61
BUF	10	0	1	1	2	16
CGS	32	1	10	11	18	56
CHI	39	1	9	10	13	77
DET	46	2	9	11	13	71
LAK	34	1	7	8	13	54
MNS	29	3	10	13	7	67
MTL	45	3	9	12	-8	93
NYI	8	0	2	2	5	10
NYR	33	3	13	16	-3	52
PHL	36	1	13	14	-8	99
PIT	33	1	13	14	18	56
STL	33	3	9	12	9	60
TOR	21	0	2	2	-1	23
VAN	17	4	8	12	7	33
	463	24	125	149	79	844
		0.052	0.270	0.322		1.823

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Broken down into the three sections I prefer:

	463	24	125	149	79	844
O6	222	10	50	60	-1	377
E1	197	10	62	72	57	392
E2	44	4	13	17	23	75
O6		0.045	0.225	0.270		1.698
E1		0.051	0.315	0.365		1.990
E2		0.091	0.295	0.386		1.705

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[O6 is BOS/CHI/DET/MTL/NYR/TOR; E1 is LAK/MNS/OAK|CGS/PHL/PIT/STL; E2 is BUF/VAN/ATL/NYI]

Again, you have the higher assist total, but it comes out to like 2 extra assists a year, nothing earth-shattering. More relevant, I think, is the plus/minus split which has held true so far - players are breakeven against the Original 6 teams (minuses against Boston and Montreal, pluses against Detroit usually), and a bunch of pluses against expansion teams. I have a feeling that's going to be broadly true for the entire league, so it doesn't really matter when comparing expansion-era players.

 

[Vilica]

Earl Seibert played against more teams than I thought he might've, but again the lack of total points means his splits are not very significant.

Earl Seibert

				Total
	Games	Goals	Assists	Points	+/-	Shots
BOS	108	12	34	46	0	0
CHI	37	5	6	11	0	0
DET	99	10	28	38	0	0
HAM	0	0	0	0	0	0
MTL	104	7	36	43	0	0
MTM	42	8	7	15	0	0
MTW	0	0	0	0	0	0
NYA	68	10	15	25	0	0
NYR	83	12	30	42	0	0
OTT	0	0	0	0	0	0
OTT/STL	18	2	4	6	0	0
PIT/PHL	0	0	0	0	0	0
TOR	98	23	27	50	0	0
	657	89	187	276	0	0
		0.135	0.285	0.420		0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The expansions/contractions of the early NHL era means this table is a bit more unwieldy than the stock O6 table, but Seibert did run up fairly good samples against the teams of the day.

BOS		0.111	0.315	0.426
CHI		0.135	0.162	0.297
DET		0.101	0.283	0.384
MTL		0.067	0.346	0.413
MTM		0.190	0.167	0.357
NYA		0.147	0.221	0.368
NYR		0.145	0.361	0.506
OTT/STL		0.111	0.222	0.333
TOR		0.235	0.276	0.510

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Interestingly, Seibert performed best against Toronto, despite them being a fairly good team his entire career. His splits against the Rangers are also a bit misleading - from 35-36 (after the trade) until 41-42 he played 50 games and scored 14 points, then during the war and in his final 4 seasons, he played 33 games and scored 28 points.

Again, I'm only providing these for the sake of completeness, I don't think you can discern as much from defensemen team scoring splits as you can with forward splits. I'm also less confident in my expansion-era hypothesis - I thought that players would run up their scoring totals against the expansion teams, but the very fact of expansion meant that they played less and less games against each team each year. In other words, pre-expansion a good player got 14 games versus the worst team (or 20%), while post-expansion they got at most 6 games of 76 (or 8%). I'd still like a bigger sample universe for that, but the only way I get that is to keep doing the splits. I think I'll have a better handle once I finish Phil Esposito and Henri Richard, and to a lesser extent Bobby Clarke. I do think I'm on a bit more solid ground in terms of +/-, players do seem to be racking up the pluses against expansion teams at the pace I expected, though I don't think that's anything groundbreaking.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perhaps you're right, TDMM...just having the conversation.

To that, I say:

Riley Hern: "it's clear that he was one of the best in the world at the turn of the century."

"Peerless" Percy LeSueur: "the Silver Seven quickly acquired the services of the day's greatest goalie"​

Hugh Lehman: "the best goaltender in the game"
Georges Vezina "Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; " - One of those best ever polls
Hap Holmes "Hap Holmes truly was one of the best goaltenders in the world in his long, 15 year career. He was arguably the best goalie in the PCHA for six straight years."
Clint Benedict: "Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known"
John Ross Roach: "Roach, considered one of the best goalies in the National Hockey League"
Alec Connell: "Tommy Gorman termed Connell, the "greatest of them all"."
Roy Worters: "Roy Worters, goaltender, declared by experts one of the greatest net guardians the game ever has known. "
George Hainsworth: "Saskatoon net guardian, who is considered to be the greatest in western hockey."
Charlie Gardiner: "Charlie Gardiner is the greatest goalkeeper hockey fans ever saw" "Gardiner is even better than Hughie Lehman, known as "Eagle Eye' was in his prime"

I'm not saying that there isn't some variance in other eras...but it's pretty easy to unearth the superlatives of goaltenders of this era I feel like. So, unless there was a bunch of Wayne Gretzkys back then just claiming that a bunch of Vitali Yachmenev's and Ales Hemsky's were the best, I don't know how much we can really, truly, confidently make of this haha...

The analysis of the historical record of Georges Vezina is a lot more vigorous than this:

1) I see lots of "one of the bests" in there, which is basically worth nothing.

2) Could you please date your quotes? Hern and LeSueur in particular were the generation before Vezina, so any "he is (currently) the best" for them is basically worthless in this discussion.

3) You need to list the source of your quotes. I happen to know where that Gardiner/Lehman quote comes from, as I believe I'm the one who first posted it on hfboards. It's from Wes Champ, president of the Regina Vics, a long time western hockey guy: The Leader-Post - Google News Archive Search
So it makes sense that he would compare Gardiner to Lehman, who was widely considered the best goalie in the history of the western leagues, which were directly competing with the NHA/NHL when Vezina was widely considered the best goalie there.

4) For the third time, media members and (now HHOF) builders actually voted on the best goalie of all time in 1925, and they picked Vezina.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The amount of quotes must be taken into consideration.You can only get a feel for that by diving yourself in old newspapers and progressing chronologically week by week.Eventually you get a sixth sense for the strenght of a quote.Or you check the ASTs.

Wayne Gretzky basically called every players from the 1980s and 1990s among the "greatest that ever played".It's easy to find some quotes about every player.

Back in the earlier ATDs, we (or some) had a tendency to pick one quote and run away with it and hope it goes unchallenged.This doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In the interests of continued contribution, despite my hypothesis pertaining more about forwards than defense, I went through both Earl Seibert and Tim Horton's team splits. Tim Horton's will be in this post, and Seibert's in a separate one. I was going to withhold Horton's post-expansion splits initially, given his 1000 game sample size prior to expansion, but since he did have the 2 AS-1 seasons post-expansion, I'll include them as well. Horton's pre-expansion splits are remarkably consistent, as he averaged about the same versus every team except the Rangers, where he had nearly 20 additional assists over his 15 full seasons - basically an extra assist against them a year.

Tim Horton O6 Era

	52-53	66-67		Total
	Games	Goals	Assists	Points	+/-	Shots
BOS	191	20	53	73	57	233
CHI	197	19	53	72	16	200
DET	197	20	49	69	33	237
MTL	198	15	53	68	-22	226
NYR	199	17	70	87	28	238
TOR	0	0	0	0	0	0
	982	91	278	369	112	1134
		0.093	0.283	0.376		1.155

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tim Horton

BOS		0.105	0.277	0.382
CHI		0.096	0.269	0.365
DET		0.102	0.249	0.350
MTL		0.076	0.268	0.343
NYR		0.085	0.352	0.437

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In terms of Home/Road splits, nothing really stands out, except that Horton was exactly even at Home vs Montreal, while being a big plus against the other 4. He was also a minus against Chicago and New York on the road, while being a plus versus Boston and Detroit.

Here's Horton expansion splits in full - in his 2 AS-1 seasons right after expansion, he basically put up half his points against O6 teams and half against expansion, and in the first year half and half for plus/minus, while in the second year he was -2 vs O6 teams and +16 against expansion teams.

	67-68	73-74		Total
	Games	Goals	Assists	Points	+/-	Shots
ATL	9	0	2	2	9	16
BOS	38	1	8	9	-15	61
BUF	10	0	1	1	2	16
CGS	32	1	10	11	18	56
CHI	39	1	9	10	13	77
DET	46	2	9	11	13	71
LAK	34	1	7	8	13	54
MNS	29	3	10	13	7	67
MTL	45	3	9	12	-8	93
NYI	8	0	2	2	5	10
NYR	33	3	13	16	-3	52
PHL	36	1	13	14	-8	99
PIT	33	1	13	14	18	56
STL	33	3	9	12	9	60
TOR	21	0	2	2	-1	23
VAN	17	4	8	12	7	33
	463	24	125	149	79	844
		0.052	0.270	0.322		1.823

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Broken down into the three sections I prefer:

	463	24	125	149	79	844
O6	222	10	50	60	-1	377
E1	197	10	62	72	57	392
E2	44	4	13	17	23	75
O6		0.045	0.225	0.270		1.698
E1		0.051	0.315	0.365		1.990
E2		0.091	0.295	0.386		1.705

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[O6 is BOS/CHI/DET/MTL/NYR/TOR; E1 is LAK/MNS/OAK|CGS/PHL/PIT/STL; E2 is BUF/VAN/ATL/NYI]

Again, you have the higher assist total, but it comes out to like 2 extra assists a year, nothing earth-shattering. More relevant, I think, is the plus/minus split which has held true so far - players are breakeven against the Original 6 teams (minuses against Boston and Montreal, pluses against Detroit usually), and a bunch of pluses against expansion teams. I have a feeling that's going to be broadly true for the entire league, so it doesn't really matter when comparing expansion-era players.

Tim Horton

Thanks for posting these.

You know what I want to see? Gordie Howe's splits - particularly his performance against Toronto vs the rest of the league, particularly in the playoffs. We know that Toronto had Detroit's number in the 1960s, and anecdotally Horton had a large part of it, as he was the one star defenseman in the league who was physically stronger than Gordie Howe, at least according to Gordie Howe (google "Tim Horton Gordie Howe" and you'll see tons of references).

Edit: Looks like Horton's +/- against Detroit was great at least, though I'm not sure exactly what years that includes.

___________________________

A little more about Horton - for a guy best known for his strength and thought of as a primarily defensive defenseman, his stats in the playoffs are very good.

In 1961-62, the Leafs won the Cup for the first time in over a decade, and Horton actually led them in playoff scoring: 1961-62 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com (Mikita, on the finalist Black Hawks led the playoffs in overall scoring).

Over the course of the dynasty (1962-1967), Horton was easily ahead of any other defenseman in scoring (35 points to 20) and wasn't that far off the leading forwards of the team (Keon, Kelly, and Mahovlich tied at 43): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Canadiens1958]

The analysis of the historical record of Georges Vezina is a lot more vigorous than this:

1) I see lots of "one of the bests" in there, which is basically worth nothing.

2) Could you please date your quotes? Hern and LeSueur in particular were the generation before Vezina, so any "he is (currently) the best" for them is basically worthless in this discussion.

3) You need to list the source of your quotes. I happen to know where that Gardiner/Lehman quote comes from, as I believe I'm the one who first posted it on hfboards. It's from Wes Champ, president of the Regina Vics, a long time western hockey guy: The Leader-Post - Google News Archive Search
So it makes sense that he would compare Gardiner to Lehman, who was widely considered the best goalie in the history of the western leagues, which were directly competing with the NHA/NHL when Vezina was widely considered the best goalie there.

4) For the third time, media members and (now HHOF) builders actually voted on the best goalie of all time in 1925, and they picked Vezina.

For the "nth"time, "Where is the beef?",the comparables defining best.

Sorry but Wes Champ does not compare Lehman to Gardiner. He does state that Gardiner does come-out 15 feet to challenge players but is this what makes him better or simply unique or maybe innovative.

Back to comparables.Coming-out 15 feet. Was Gardiner a better skater? Were goalies rated - catching glove, stick hand/blocker, puck handling, rebound control, other attributes?

This type of goalie analysis is missing from the "best" type proclamations.

 

[Theokritos]

Could you please date your quotes?

This, plus cite the sources.

Some of the quotes sound like the kind of modern write-up often cited and re-cited in ATD bios from books or sources like "Hockey Legends this and that", "Hockey Ultimate" and whatever they are called, and even Joe Pelletier. They are interesting if you want to get a first impression of a player you don't know, but I wouldn't use them as credible sources for anything specific. Way too vague and generic.

EDIT: I see TDMM already covered this with his third point.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The source of the quotes and all that aren't really the point...I literally went in order, c&p'ing out of the Pre-1950 Goaltender Research thread from the goalie project...it's nothing new under the sun. My point wasn't about the specifics, it's that an awful lot of players are considered the best in their position in a pretty short amount of time and that, in conjunction with the other points I had mentioned, should make us take the extra minute on this and go, "hmm...how sure about this are we?"

Goalies before 1950 research thread

 

[Michael Farkas]

Way too vague and generic.

Precisely.

 

[Theokritos]

The source of the quotes and all that aren't really the point...I literally went in order, c&p'ing out of the Pre-1950 Goaltender Research thread from the goalie project... (...) My point wasn't about the specifics, it's that an awful lot of players are considered the best in their position in a pretty short amount of time

I would argue the sources are exactly the point. An awful lot of players are considered the best in their position etc, yes, but by whom and by how many and at which time?

 

[Theokritos]

A collection of opinions from the 1920s to early 1960s (mostly 30s and 40s thought) - sources provided by @Robert Gordon Orr and @overpass:

Percy LeSueur (*1881):

• Various sports writers/Charlie Good (1924/1925): second all-time ("as good as Vezina, but didn't wear as well")
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1942): best goaltender
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1946/1947): all-time all-star team

Harry 'Dutchy' Morrison (*1882):

• L.F. Earl (1943/1944): either Morrison or Charlie Gardiner would make the all-time all-star team

Georges Vézina (*1887):

• Various sports writers/Charlie Good (1924/1925): all-time all-star team ("for year in and year out consistency")
• Aurèle Joliat (1936/1937): 'oldtimers' all-star team ("was a wonder in the nets")
• Sprague Cleghorn (1941): "best goaltender"
• Cooper Smeaton (1942/1943): 'oldtimers' all-star team
• Alf Smith (1943/1944): "greatest goalie of his time"
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): 1910-20 all-star team and all-time all-star team
• Aurèle Joliat (1948/1949): one of the two best goaltenders Joliat had played with or against (the other being George Hainsworth)
• Frank Selke (1948/1949): 1900-1926 all-star team

Hap Holmes (*1888):

• Duke Keats (1942/1943): all-time all-star team

George Hainsworth (*1895):

• Aurèle Joliat (1936/1937): 'recent times' all-star team ("outstanding in goal")
• Bill Cook (1937/1938): all-time all-star team
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): one of two goalies on the 1930-1940 all-star team (the other being Tiny Thompson)
  
• Newsy Lalonde (1947/1948): all-time all-star team ("even ahead of Vezina, on his record alone")
• Aurèle Joliat (1948/1949): one of the two best goaltenders Joliat had played with or against (the other being Georges Vézina)
• Bill Cook (1951/1952): all-time all-star team

Alec Connell (*1900):

• Tommy Gorman (1941): the best goaltender Gorman ever saw

Roy Worters (*1900):

• Lionel Conacher (1941): "the greatest goalie who ever played"
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 third all-star team (behind Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner)

Tiny Thompson (*1903):

• Red Dutton (1938/1939): all-time all-star team
• Ebbie Goodfellow (1941/1942): first all-star team among players Goodfellow had played against (ahead of Charlie Gardiner)
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 all-star team (ahead of Charlie Gardiner)
  
• Mickey Ion (1943/44): one of the two goalies 1930-1940 all-star team (the other being George Hainsworth)

Charlie Gardiner (*1904):

• Hap Holmes (1937/1938): all-time all-star team ("moved so that he was in front of practically every shot")
• Ebbie Goodfellow (1941/1942): second all-star team among player Goodfellow had played against (behind Tiny Thompson)
• Cooper Smeaton (1942/1943): 'modern' all-star team
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 second all-star team (behind Tiny Thompson)
• L.F. Earl (1943/1944): either Gardiner or Dutchy Morrison would make the all-time all-star team
• Frank Boucher (1947/1948): all-time all-star team
• Frank Boucher (1949/1950): all-time all-star team ("probably the greatest goaltender of them all")
• Dick Beddoes (1961): all-time all-star team

Frank Brimsek (*1951):

• Art Ross (1939/1940): best goaltender of all times

 

[BenchBrawl]

A collection of opinions from the 1920s to early 1960s (mostly 30s and 40s thought) - sources provided by @Robert Gordon Orr and @overpass:

Nothing on Benedict or Lehman?