Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 13

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 8th at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 10th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 11th.


Vote 13 Candidates

• Al MacInnis
• Andy Bathgate
• Bernie Geoffrion
• Earl Seibert
• Frank Mahovlich
• Georges Vezina
• Marcel Dionne
• Scott Stevens
• Teemu Selanne
• Tim Horton

Click to read more...

 

[The Macho King]

Selanne? Really?

For an offensive focused player with zero Harts (or serious Hart consideration outside of a 3rd and two 5ths), zero Art Ross trophies, but a few rockets to be put this high? His playoff resume is seriously lacking as well.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Jets fan for decades, but I'm surprised that Teemu is here already. Can't wait to hear the "Where is Firsov" chants.

 

[DannyGallivan]

You mean, Firsov still isn't up for a vote???

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nice - MacInnis/Stevens/Horton/Seibert all seem very close to each other. With Pronger sneaking in last time, is it time for a big group of defensemen?

IMO, Georges Vezina is the next goalie who should be added, and he immediately has a shot at my top 5. He and Gardiner are the last 2 "clear best goalie of his generation," and Vezina's longevity beats out Gardiner's.

I also feel like it's time for Geoffrion and Bathgate.

Selanne is a little unexpected. Still probably ahead of Mahovlich for me.

At this point, it's obvious there are a few voters who think that this project is for players who played in and against the NHL only, so Firsov's continued omission, while sad, isn't totally surprising anymore.

 

[Theokritos]

You guys know where the talk about ineligible players belongs. Hint: Not in this thread.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I think Selanne made my top 120, but not by much. Seems way too early.

Vezina appearing before Bill Durnan is surprising to me (though I'm not saying it's wrong either).

 

[DannyGallivan]

Nice - MacInnis/Stevens/Horton/Seibert all seem very close to each other. With Pronger sneaking in last time, is it time for a big group of defensemen?

Interested to see the debates/comparisons here... especially between contemporaries MacInnes and Stevens.

IMO, Georges Vezina is the next goalie who should be added, and he immediately has a shot at my top 5. He and Gardiner are the last 2 "clear best goalie of his generation," and Vezina's longevity beats out Gardiner's.

He's my very early number one for this round.

I also feel like it's time for Geoffrion and Bathgate.

Yes..., and I'll include Dionne there too. Although somebody will have to miss out.

Selanne is a little unexpected. Still probably ahead of Mahovlich for me.

Mahovlich is above Selanne for me.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Selanne? Really?

For an offensive focused player with zero Harts (or serious Hart consideration outside of a 3rd and two 5ths), zero Art Ross trophies, but a few rockets to be put this high? His playoff resume is seriously lacking as well.

Cliff’s notes of why he was in this same company in the Wingers project:

7x top-10 scorer in a range of 18 years whose playoff statline in those seven seasons reads 19 goals in 27 games despite his team going 8-19 (he led his team in goals in every individual series in those years) with a three-year peak of finishing 2nd in scoring to Mario Lemieux in 1996-97 and then having back-to-back Pearson nominations in 1997-98 and 1998-99 AND he helped lead Finland to medals in 4 of the 5 Olympics of the NHL-era (most of any country) where he was tournament-leading scorer in 1998 and 2006 and tournament MVP in 2014 for leading the knockout round in scoring as well as scoring both GWGs for his team.

Great scorer. Underrated playmaker. Fantastic pressure player whose playoff record has a high ratio of games in his least productive seasons.

 

[The Macho King]

I think Selanne made my top 120, but not by much. Seems way too early.

Vezina appearing before Bill Durnan is surprising to me (though I'm not saying it's wrong either).

I think he was in the 90s for me. This seems insanely early. I can think of quite a few just contemporaries that probably warrant being placed over him.

This seems like a nostalgia pick from a lot of people in their 20s and 30s that remember watching him a lot growing up.

 

[sr edler]

Great scorer. Underrated playmaker. Fantastic pressure player whose playoff record has a high ratio of games in his least productive seasons.

Dixon Ward called him "opportunistic" though, and it showed in the 93 playoffs when he was held off the scoresheet in half of the games in a 6 game series, but still recorded a hattrick.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Dixon Ward called him "opportunistic" though, and it showed in the 93 playoffs when he was held off the scoresheet in half of the games in a 6 game series, but still recorded a hattrick.

Are we really unhappy with a hat trick in a 5-4 game or another multipoint night that culminated in his OT winner? Those were the Jets’ only wins.

 

[sr edler]

Are we really unhappy with a hat trick in a 5-4 game or another multipoint night that culminated in his OT winner? Those were the Jets’ only wins.

But what happened in the other games? Selänne was a monster in the RS, but could only replicate sporadically when the chips were down.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Are we really unhappy with a hat trick in a 5-4 game or another multipoint night that culminated in his OT winner? Those were the Jets’ only wins.

He's a great player, no doubt, but not the best player who ever wore a Jets jersey in the NHL and not even the best player who wore a Ducks jersey in the NHL (neither of those players will likely even be up for a vote in this project).

 

[sr edler]

I actually ranked Selänne pretty high, because I think he's a guy with value, and he's got impressive best-on-best international merits. But, he possesses many of the same flaws as Jagr. Except he was more intense. But look at his stint in the Bay Area. It's suspect to say the least.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I actually ranked Selänne pretty high, because I think he's a guy with value, and he's got impressive best-on-best international merits. But, he possesses many of the same flaws as Jagr. Except he was more intense. But look at his stint in the Bay Area. It's suspect to say the least.

I originally had him ranked 90th, based mainly on his Maurice Richard Awards and overall career accomplishments.

 

[quoipourquoi]

But look at his stint in the Bay Area. It's suspect to say the least.

When he was skating on a bum leg for three seasons? I’m not sure anyone thinks of 2002-2004 as career highlights, but the league even acknowledged this with the Masterton in 2005-06 - his first season after surgery in which he scored 90 points at 35-years-old and was the Mighty Ducks leading scorer on their run to the Conference Finals as a 6th seed.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I originally had him ranked 90th, based mainly on his Maurice Richard Awards and overall career accomplishments.

Minor quibble and a little silly I guess, but it annoys me he shares two of those with Mogilny and Bondra. OTOH he showed excellent goalscoring prowess in three distinct eras being top 3 in goals five times during his career starting with the 1st place shared with Mogilny in 92/93 and finishing 3rd in 06/07. The guy could flat out score.

NR for me if I was participating, though.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Minor quibble and a little silly I guess, but it annoys me he shares two of those with Mogilny and Bondra. OTOH he showed excellent goalscoring prowess in three distinct eras being top 3 in goals five times during his career starting with the 1st place shared with Mogilny in 92/93 and finishing 3rd in 06/07. The guy could flat out score.

NR for me if I was participating, though.

It dilutes the achievement of scoring 76 goals when everybody was scoring that season (I think I got four goals just by buying tickets to 20 games that year). Plus, he was already at his peak when he joining the NHL, unlike Bossy who didn't have the opportunity to play in an elite men's league before becoming a rookie (therefore, I give Teemu's rookie goal record an asterix).

He belongs on this list... towards the end. Great ambassador of the game, very classy individual. Almost impossible to dislike (on a personal level).

 

[quoipourquoi]

It dilutes the achievement of scoring 76 goals when everybody was scoring that season (I think I got four goals just by buying tickets to 20 games that year). Plus, he was already at his peak when he joining the NHL, unlike Bossy who didn't have the opportunity to play in an elite men's league before becoming a rookie (therefore, I give Teemu's rookie goal record an asterix).

I’m not sure that he’s necessarily eligible because of the 76-goal record or the 20-goals-in-one-month record in 1992-93, but rather that 4-6 years later he was the top skater after Lemieux and Jagr and that 18 years later he was still a top-10 scorer in the NHL.

 

[MXD]

I think he was in the 90s for me. This seems insanely early. I can think of quite a few just contemporaries that probably warrant being placed over him.

This seems like a nostalgia pick from a lot of people in their 20s and 30s that remember watching him a lot growing up.

We're at the point where we start seeing the first players that were completely omitted from Round 1 lists, and Selanne fits the profile of the player that everyone would rank. I had Selanne right between Mahovlich and Moore myself (there are players in between them all). Of course, I'd rather have Gardiner and Benedict and Broda and Durnan and Belfour and Esposito and even Lundqvist (and Firsov) than Selanne, but failing that, we could do worse than Selanne. I think he became available at the right right time if we disregard Firsov and goalies.

Tangentially related to this : QPQ, this is where we're having our first "unranked" player available for voting, right? Or was it last round?

 

[seventieslord]

I don't think selanne is all that out of place here, but at least we have another offense only forward that Dionne and Bathgate are slam dunk better than.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Tangentially related to this : QPQ, this is where we're having our first "unranked" player available for voting, right? Or was it last round?

Those came in the #40-44 round. For the most part, everyone has been ranked by everybody still.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I had Selanne and Bathgate pretty close to each other actually...is there really a huge gap? The term "slam dunk" was used.

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[bobholly39]

I'm typically pretty high on modern guys but Selanne is quite underwhelming to me too. His peak seems lacking. Both regular season and playoffs. His rookie season is of course fantastic, but after that....I don't know, i think it's too early for him.

I'd have much preferred Brett Hull. At least he has the peak (and playoffs) along with all that consistent longevity.

Sticking to wingers - i must be higher on Geoffrion than most, but I had him going last round, and i think it's definitely time for him.