Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 13

Nick Hansen

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Sep 28, 2017
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There are a couple of modern wingers that make you think about Selanne. But him being second to Jagr and Lemieux, in a quite convincing fashion in the late 90's with regards to number of points gives you pause.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Pulling this from last thread. I’m no scout but when I watched the 1972 Summit Series on DVD I thought Mahovlich looked like the total package with the puck, very dangerous. I also noticed all the circles and fly-bys without the puck. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a forward skate bigger circles when killing a penalty than Frank Mahovlich in Game 1 of the Summit Series.

Certainly at that level.Poorly coached junior teams, happens.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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The forwards still leave me cold.

Vezina and the defensemen can get in and I'd be happy.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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I'm not going to re-post the playoff R-On/R-Off information from the players who were up last round. The high-level summary was Mahovlich looked really disappointing; Dionne was about as bad as you'd expect; Horton and Geoffrion were inconsistent; and Bathgate looked bad, but in a limited sample, mostly past his peak.

Al MacInnis

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1983-8411 0.91 0.88 4%
1984-854 0.67 0.86 -22%
1985-8621 1.63 0.79 106%
1986-874 0.50 0.75 -33%
1987-887 1.00 1.41 -29%
1988-8922 1.55 1.42 9%
1989-906 1.14 1.17 -2%
1990-917 0.44 1.13 -60%
1992-936 0.56 0.74 -25%
1993-947 2.25 0.46 388%
1994-957 0.63 2.00 -69%
1995-9613 1.20 1.17 3%
1996-976 0.67 1.25 -47%
1997-988 1.20 0.53 128%
1998-9913 0.85 0.75 13%
1999-007 0.83 1.13 -26%
2000-0115 1.13 1.27 -11%
2001-0210 1.50 0.75 100%
2002-033 1.00 1.11 -10%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Inconsistent, but a pretty favourable track record overall. The biggest positive? As MacInnis went, so went the team. When MacInnis outplayed his team, he often dragged them to the second round and beyond; when he struggled, they were often eliminated. Biggest surprise? By this metric, MacInnis was only a bit better than the rest of the team in 1989 when he won the Smythe. Biggest negative? He seemed to have a pretty bad five year hangover after winning the Cup in 1989 (except for 1994) - how much of the blame should he take for the Flames' struggles? Remember that these numbers take into account ES play only - MacInnis was a major contributor on the powerplay and penalty kill.

Scott Stevens

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1982-834 0.67 0.60 11%
1983-848 1.09 0.67 64%
1984-855 0.43 1.25 -66%
1985-869 2.33 1.18 97%
1986-877 1.44 0.67 117%
1987-8813 0.95 1.24 -23%
1988-896 0.67 0.60 11%
1989-9015 0.93 1.10 -15%
1990-9113 1.89 0.74 156%
1991-927 0.44 1.60 -72%
1992-935 0.71 0.44 61%
1993-9420 0.95 1.06 -10%
1994-9520 2.11 2.00 6%
1996-9710 0.80 1.00 -20%
1997-986 2.33 0.33 600%
1998-997 0.75 0.78 -4%
1999-0023 1.60 1.32 22%
2000-0125 1.18 1.83 -36%
2001-026 999.99 - 1000%
2002-0324 2.75 1.12 146%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Very good results overall. Stevens was, on average, 25% better than his team's ES ratio during their five longest Cup runs. An R-On ratio of 1.72 is exceptional in the "lockouts era" (1995 to present). The biggest surprise was a lot of his really big positives came earlier in his career (he performed at a higher level in New Jersey, but the team was much stronger then). His R-On/R-Off split is almost identical to Marian Hossa. His Smythe from 2000 is very good (an almost identical level of performance to MacInnis's - on a slightly weaker team).

Teemu Selanne

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1992-936 0.50 0.73 -31%
1996-9711 0.73 0.54 35%
1998-994 0.67 - 1000%
2000-016 3.00 0.80 275%
2001-0212 0.73 1.31 -45%
2003-0410 0.60 1.40 -57%
2005-0616 1.00 1.67 -40%
2006-0721 1.13 1.57 -28%
2007-086 0.67 0.86 -22%
2008-0913 0.67 1.20 -44%
2010-116 0.50 0.90 -44%
2012-137 1.33 1.11 20%
2013-1412 0.50 0.84 -40%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Inconsistent results. The big disclaimer here is the majority of Selanne's playoff games came when he was past his prime. During 1997 and 1999, when he was at his absolute peak, he vastly outplayed his team. But he was disappointing during some very strong seasons such as 1993, 2006, and 2007. His career R-On and R-off numbers are almost identical to Joe Thornton's (though, obviously, Thornton made the playoffs consistently during career, unlike Selanne).

Career averages

PlayerGPR-OnR-OffChange
Bernie Geoffrion34 1.23 0.82 50.2%
Scott Stevens233 1.22 1.09 12.9%
Al MacInnis177 1.08 0.99 9.3%
Tim Horton106 0.89 0.91 -1.3%
Marcel Dionne49 0.57 0.60 -6.2%
Teemu Selanne130 0.79 1.07 -25.6%
Frank Mahovlich125 0.79 1.38 -42.9%
Andy Bathgate38 0.71 1.50 -52.8%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Thanks for posting those, Hockey Outsider. Always nice when the numbers confirm what my eyes told me:

That is that, while Brodeur was MVP of the 1995-2003 Devils in the regular season, Stevens was their MVP in the playoffs.

I was planning to wait on posting about Stevens, but your post is so easy to build off of:

I'm not going to re-post the playoff R-On/R-Off information from the players who were up last round. The high-level summary was Mahovlich looked really disappointing; Dionne was about as bad as you'd expect; Horton and Geoffrion were inconsistent; and Bathgate looked bad, but in a limited sample, mostly past his peak.

Al MacInnis

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1983-8411 0.91 0.88 4%
1984-854 0.67 0.86 -22%
1985-8621 1.63 0.79 106%
1986-874 0.50 0.75 -33%
1987-887 1.00 1.41 -29%
1988-8922 1.55 1.42 9%
1989-906 1.14 1.17 -2%
1990-917 0.44 1.13 -60%
1992-936 0.56 0.74 -25%
1993-947 2.25 0.46 388%
1994-957 0.63 2.00 -69%
1995-9613 1.20 1.17 3%
1996-976 0.67 1.25 -47%
1997-988 1.20 0.53 128%
1998-9913 0.85 0.75 13%
1999-007 0.83 1.13 -26%
2000-0115 1.13 1.27 -11%
2001-0210 1.50 0.75 100%
2002-033 1.00 1.11 -10%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Inconsistent, but a pretty favourable track record overall. The biggest positive? As MacInnis went, so went the team. When MacInnis outplayed his team, he often dragged them to the second round and beyond; when he struggled, they were often eliminated. Biggest surprise? By this metric, MacInnis was only a bit better than the rest of the team in 1989 when he won the Smythe. Biggest negative? He seemed to have a pretty bad five year hangover after winning the Cup in 1989 (except for 1994) - how much of the blame should he take for the Flames' struggles? Remember that these numbers take into account ES play only - MacInnis was a major contributor on the powerplay and penalty kill.

Scott Stevens

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1982-834 0.67 0.60 11%
1983-848 1.09 0.67 64%
1984-855 0.43 1.25 -66%
1985-869 2.33 1.18 97%
1986-877 1.44 0.67 117%
1987-8813 0.95 1.24 -23%
1988-896 0.67 0.60 11%
1989-9015 0.93 1.10 -15%
1990-9113 1.89 0.74 156%
1991-927 0.44 1.60 -72%
1992-935 0.71 0.44 61%
1993-9420 0.95 1.06 -10%
1994-9520 2.11 2.00 6%
1996-9710 0.80 1.00 -20%
1997-986 2.33 0.33 600%
1998-997 0.75 0.78 -4%
1999-0023 1.60 1.32 22%
2000-0125 1.18 1.83 -36%
2001-026 999.99 - 1000%
2002-0324 2.75 1.12 146%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Very good results overall. Stevens was, on average, 25% better than his team's ES ratio during their five longest Cup runs. An R-On ratio of 1.72 is exceptional in the "lockouts era" (1995 to present). The biggest surprise was a lot of his really big positives came earlier in his career (he performed at a higher level in New Jersey, but the team was much stronger then). His R-On/R-Off split is almost identical to Marian Hossa. His Smythe from 2000 is very good (an almost identical level of performance to MacInnis's - on a slightly weaker team).

Teemu Selanne

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1992-936 0.50 0.73 -31%
1996-9711 0.73 0.54 35%
1998-994 0.67 - 1000%
2000-016 3.00 0.80 275%
2001-0212 0.73 1.31 -45%
2003-0410 0.60 1.40 -57%
2005-0616 1.00 1.67 -40%
2006-0721 1.13 1.57 -28%
2007-086 0.67 0.86 -22%
2008-0913 0.67 1.20 -44%
2010-116 0.50 0.90 -44%
2012-137 1.33 1.11 20%
2013-1412 0.50 0.84 -40%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Inconsistent results. The big disclaimer here is the majority of Selanne's playoff games came when he was past his prime. During 1997 and 1999, when he was at his absolute peak, he vastly outplayed his team. But he was disappointing during some very strong seasons such as 1993, 2006, and 2007. His career R-On and R-off numbers are almost identical to Joe Thornton's (though, obviously, Thornton made the playoffs consistently during career, unlike Selanne).

Career averages

PlayerGPR-OnR-OffChange
Bernie Geoffrion34 1.23 0.82 50.2%
Scott Stevens233 1.22 1.09 12.9%
Al MacInnis177 1.08 0.99 9.3%
Tim Horton106 0.89 0.91 -1.3%
Marcel Dionne49 0.57 0.60 -6.2%
Teemu Selanne130 0.79 1.07 -25.6%
Frank Mahovlich125 0.79 1.38 -42.9%
Andy Bathgate38 0.71 1.50 -52.8%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Scott Stevens' usage

Now keep in mind that from 1995 on, the Devils hard-matched Stevens against the best opposition of their opponents. If Lindros or Lemieux or Lemieux-less Jagr stepped on the ice without Stevens there, and the Devils could change, Stevens was ALWAYS the first Devil on the ice, regardless of the position of the first skater to get to the bench.

That gaudy R-on in 1995 was posted while being hard matched against Cam Neely, then Art Ross winner Jagr, then Hart winner Lindros in the first three rounds. I don't recall if Stevens was hard-matched against anyone in the finals; my gut tells me he was not, as the Wings spread out their offense between the Yzerman and Fedorov lines. But IMO, the most important play of the finals was Stevens knocking out Kozlov, threatening Ciccarelli, and none of the Wings doing anything about it. Stevens deserved the 1995 Conn Smythe in addition to the one he actually won in 2000 (something most Devils fans thought at the time; I'll post some articles as to such later in the week).

For whatever reason I remembered this post and found it. Even under the relatively offensive-minded coach Larry Robinson, Stevens was almost always out against the opponent's top line:

When rewatching the 2000 finals there was a graphic saying that Stevens had been out for IIRC 144 of 156 Modano shifts.

ATD2011 William Northey Semis: (1) New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. (4) Garnish Phantoms

During the 2003 Cup win, Pat Burns had the team intentionally ice the puck whenever the other team's top scorer (notably Thornton and LeCavalier in the first two rounds) was on the ice without Stevens, so they could get Stevens out there. IMO, Pat Burns' usage of Scott Stevens was the final straw in the NHL going to no-changes allowed after icing the next time the rules were up.
___________________-

In summary: I don't know if another star player in the last 25 years has seen usage as defensive as Scott Stevens. So the fact that he outperformed his team at all, let alone better than anyone available this round other than Geoffrion should be mighty impressive.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Pronger shouldn't have gotten in before Stevens, so it is going to be a priority of mine to make sure Stevens gets in as close to Pronger as possible.

(And no, that doesn't mean I'm going to vote him in over anyone else more deserving)
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Bathgate and Geoffrion

I have them as my top 2 forwards this round. Here are two posts I previously made on them during the project. Plus a short summary of just how outstanding Geoffrion was as a playoff scorer (I think @VanIslander posted something similar when he first became available).

I (slightly) prefer Bathgate to Dionne

From last round:
Bathgate sure has a lot of similarities with Dionne. I lean Bathgate (a little) higher than Dionne because

1) I think that it was easier for a "bad team scorer" to put up lots of points in the late 1970s/early 1980s vs his competition than in the late 1950s/early 1960s because of the respective styles and qualities of the league at the times. In other words, when Dionne played, there were lots more crappy teams that still played wide open styles than when Bathgate played. IMO, this counteracts the slight edge in VsX that Dionne has.

2) Perhaps more importantly, while both players have poor postseason scoring records, I find Bathgate's a bit more excusable, again, because of the way the league was in the original 6 period - specifically, Bathgate's Rangers were doormats for 30-some years. You had Detroit, Montreal, and Toronto. Then you had Boston (first half of O6) or Chicago (second half of O6). The Rangers were such an afterthought, that a few years before Bathgate came to town, they voluntarily gave up home games in the playoffs the one year because the circus was at MSG.

3) While Bathgate's drop in playoff scoring is pretty Dionne-like, he at least led his own team in playoff goals and points by a bit of a margin during his absolute best years: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

When Geoffrion stepped on the ice, he was an elite point producer, regular season or playoffs. He often missed 15-20 games in the regular season (which hurts his end-of-season rankings and thus VsX scores). But he didn't miss games in the playoffs and continued producing at a high rate.

Geoffrion's regular season points rankings: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7
Geoffrion's regular season points-per-game rankings: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10

Details from 3 rounds ago:
One thing in Geoffrion's favor - he scored at a consistently high per-game rate in the regular season, even as he regularly missed games. And in the playoffs, when games mattered, he continued to score at a high rate, but no longer missed games. And really, he played for the stacked 50s Canadiens; who cared if he regularly missed 15-20 games a season in the regular season? They still made the playoffs.

I've seen the above argument made for players like Mario Lemieux and Peter Forsberg (who, unlike Geoffrion, did miss playoff games, but at a lower rate than they missed regular season games).

The counterargument would be that a superstar contemporary of Geoffrion's like Andy Bathgate sure didn't have the luxury of missing 15-20 games in the regular season, knowing his team would make the playoffs regardless.

___________________________

Geoffrion stats:

Points
1951-52 NHL 54 (6th)
1953-54 NHL 54 (4th)
1954-55 NHL 75 (1st)
1955-56 NHL 62 (7th)
1958-59 NHL 66 (6th)
1959-60 NHL 71 (7th)
1960-61 NHL 95 (1st)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Points Per Game
1951-52 NHL 0.81 (8th)
1953-54 NHL 1.00 (2nd)
1954-55 NHL 1.07 (2nd)
1955-56 NHL 1.05 (3rd)
1957-58 NHL 1.19 (5th)
1958-59 NHL 1.12 (4th)
1959-60 NHL 1.20 (2nd)
1960-61 NHL 1.48 (1st)
1961-62 NHL 0.95 (10th)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This argument wasn't all that compelling compared to the competition 3 rounds ago. But compared to these players, I think it is.

Geoffrion - lead the playoffs in scoring (by double digits!) for all of:

The 1950s: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

The Canadiens team that made 10 (no typo) finals in a row (1951-1960): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

The dynasty that won 5 Cups in a row (1956-1960): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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All the info in the next 2 posts is from Round 2, Vote 3 of the HOH Goalies project. I am consolidating a few of my posts.

Originally, I compared Vezina with his contemporary Clint Benedict, so there are going to be some references to Benedict in here too. I am not including the references to Benedict that are irrelevant to Vezina at this point. Much of the commentary is from hfboards poster nayld psycho

Georeges Vezina Part 1 (contemporary opinions)

Attempting to create a chronology, based mostly on newspaper accounts. This post focuses on accounts from Vezina's career. I'll make another post on what people where saying about him in the decades after they retired

1910s: Vezina was considered the best goalie in the NHA/NHL and likely the world

The Calgary Daily Herald - Oct 30 1914 said:
There ???(I assume "is a") strong possibility that the National Hockey assiciation will this year be without the services of its most brilliant goalkeeper, Vezina of the Canadiens.
This paper was poorly scanned, but it was about a proposed deal that when Lalonde was playing out West, Vezina would be traded straight up for him to bring Lalonde back to Montreal.

The Montreal Daily Mail - Dec 13 1915 said:
During the intermission he hustled George Vezina, recognized as the best goal-keeper in the NHA, into one of the Guards uniforms.
This was from an a game where NHA all-stars played an army team. For the third period, the coach of the army team (Vezina's coach on the Habs.) snuck Vezina into the army teams goal. Here is the scoring per period:
1st: 4-1 NHA
2nd: 5-1 NHA
3rd: 3-1 Army

The Montreal Daily Mail - Mar 17 1916 said:
George Vezina, the brilliant goal-keeper of the Canadiens, often said to be as good as two men, jumped into prominence when he joined the Habitants in 1911. Born in Chicoutimi twenty-eight years ago, Vezina started playing goals when a youngster. Manager George Kennedy witnessed a game in which he was playing in 1910, and immediately signed him up. Ever since he has played in front of the nets for the Flying Frenchmen, and today is one of the highest payed goal-tenders in the business.

The Toronto World - Apr 5 1916 said:
Vezina, George: Goalkeeper, 28 years old, and from Chicoutimi. Joined the Canadiens in 1910 and made good on the jump. The most consistent goalkeeper in the N.H.A. and as clean a player as the game knows. His success is largely consequent upon the fact that he attends stricktly to business all the time, and never tries to pull any funny stuff.

The Morning Leader - Feb 26 1919 said:
...the goaltenders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.
From a Regina paper, infers that Lehman is the class of the West and Vezina of the East.

The Morning Leader - Mar 8 1919 said:
Georges Vezina, goalkeeper of the Montreal Canadiens, who is conceded to be the best net guardian in the game.

early 1920s: Opinion seems to be split between Benedict and Vezina:

The Border Cities Star - Nov 25 1921 said:
Another development at Ottawa was the signing of Clint Benedict to occupy the nets for the Ottawa team during the forthcoming season Clint is generally regarded as the second best to George Vezina of the Flying Frenchmen.

The Senators and Benedict continued their roll into the 1920-1921 season. For the second consecutive year, Benedict was lauded as the best netminder in the NHL, even though Ottawa had dropped to second in the standings.

He certainly impressed a young rookie who joined the Senators before the 1921-1922 season – Francis “King” Clancy.
“He was superb. A lot of people say that Georges Vezina was the greatest goaltender in those early days of hockey, but if you look at the records you’ll see that Clint Benedict…had a better average.”

-Great Goaltenders: Stars of Hockey’s Golden Age by Jim Barber (note that Clancy appears to be referred to GAA).

Months before Vezina became ill, a panel of hockey experts voted him the best goaltender of all-time:

In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P.

The selected Vezina 1st Team All-Time-All-Star goalie. Percy LeSueur (of the previous generation) was 2nd team. Vezina's contemporaries Clint Benedict and Hugh Lehman were tied for 3rd Team

The March 17, 1925 Morning Leader report on MacLean's 1st Team makes one suspect that extra credit was given to deceased players. Noteably, Vezina, Cleghorn, and Nighbor were the only still-living players on the 1st Team:
Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; defence, Sprague Cleghorn and Hod Stuart (deceased); center, Frank Nighbor; right wing, Allan, Scotty Davidson; left wing, Tommy Phillips (deceased)"

This timing is important because Vezina would not start to show signs of illness until the following October, was not diagnosed with tuberculosis until Nov 28, 1925, and did not die until March 26, 1926 (source = wikipedia).

So the MacLean's All-Time All-Star list is entirely untainted by Vezina's early death.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Georges Vezina Part 2 - Legacy

I'm focusing on opinions of people through the early 1950s - what people who saw them play thought about them after their careers.

The belief that Vezina was the best of his era seems fairly widespread

Jack Adam said:
When you talk about goaltenders, you have to start with Georges Vezina. By an almost unanimous vote of hockey people, he was the greatest the game has ever had. I remember him fairly well.

In 1918 when I broke into the National League with Toronto, Vezina was with Les Canadians. He was near the end of his career, but was still a marvel in the nets, as I found out the first time I skated in on him.

I thought I had him beat, I thought I had a cinch goal, but he had figured exactly what I was going to do, and brushed aside the shot, as easily as you'd strike a match.

Jack Adams said:
Vezina was a big fellow... I'd say he was about five feet 11 inches tall, without his skates on and he looked even taller in uniform because he always wore a red and blue toque. He had big hands and he used an exceptionally long stick.
...
He played a stand-up game, sliding from post to post, making save that seemed impossible by outguessing the puck carriers.

That was his strong point. Like all great goalers, he studied the styles of every forward in the league. He could sense what one of them would do under a given set of circumstances and was usually prepared. He guess wrong sometimes, of course, but not often.
...
I played against Vezina for three or four years. Many times he broke my heart by turning back what looked like a certain score. He was a real master. He had perfect co-ordination and an uncanny instinct.

Jack Adams then went on to say that due to changes in the nature of the position, Vezina might not actually be any more effective than the best recent goalies (Charlie Gardiner, John Ross Roach, and Tiny Thompson were named). Marty Barry was present for the interview and this is his reaction:

Adams was now striking at one of the legends of hockey. Marty Barry, sitting on a rubber table next to the Honey Walker, was startled. Never before had he heard anyone question Vezina's superiority. He was too surprised to interrupt and Adams went on (about the changes in the game making a goalie's job harder since Vezina's time)
...
"I see what you mean," said Barry, only half convinced.

The Sunday Sun, Feb 1, 1936

I think it's clear that rightly or wrongly by 1936 - 10 years after Vezina's death - "conventional wisdom" considered him the best goalie of the era - better than Clint Benedict, Hugh Lehman, or Hap Holmes.

Later, in 1953:

Jack Adams said he thought that the only old-timer who might measure up to the to the modern goalers was the immortal Georges Vezina himself.
...
But Vezina played in the days of parallel passing and kitty-bar-the-door when a lot of shots were fired from far out. We doubt if he would be as successful today unless he changed his style. But we think that Vezina, Clint Benedict, George Haimsworth, Roy Worters, and other great goalers of the past would be about to adapt to the changing conditions. They were only as good as they had to be.

Montreal Gazette, Mar 9, 1953

There are some who would picked Benedict, however

The boys were talking about goaltending greats in the aftergame discussion at Cornell last night and Jim McCafffrey was firm in his stand that Benedict was tops.... JP is willing to settle for Frank Brimsek among the present-day puck stoppers and calls Jack Crawford the best defenseman of all...

Ottawa Cititzen, March 10, 1943

In 1948, Kenny McKenize, hockey journalist and co-founder of The Hockey News called Benedict the greatest goaltender of all-time. He recalled a save Benedict made on Duke Keats that made Keats "so mad that he couldn't speak for 2 hours after the game."

Vancouver Sun, Oct 13, 1948
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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Early morning impressions- Vote Thirteen:

Setting aside the obvious "wish-they-were-nominated-but-weren't" gripe that virtually all of us could be expected to have at this stage of the Project, there are no nominees that I find to be jarringly out-of-place here.

Seibert and Bathgate are early candidates for my top vote. I thought they were both good enough last Round... but holding Bathgate back at least puts a little space between Conacher and him- and that seems functionally correct.

Selänne, my previous un-nominated BPA (sorry, un-nominated you-know-who) comes in as an immediate field-promotion candidate. I look at his record and see that he can do some remarkable things with just a little bit of teammate help.

Ordered reverse-alphabetically, I have Vézina, Geoffrion, and Dionne at (NOT respectively) slots 59, 60, and 63. I ought to check my work to see if the order I placed them in needs some re-assessment.

MacInnis isn't that far off-the-pace. Got some foreign-borns between the three above & MacInnis... but that's not relevant to the discussion now. Next best Canadian 'D?' Possibly...

Speaking of Canadian D- Horton-Stevens are back-to-back on the Prelim List, too. Let's see if one can separate from the other.

Just to look at the issue from an unorthodox angle, I'll see if there's any case to be made for Mahovlich>MacInnis. If I can't justify that, I'm okay with Mahovlich waiting another Round.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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With regards to Vezina, I think we are by and large putting the goaltender position itself on trial when considering his candidacy. The evidence seems strong that he was the best pre-consolidation goaltender, or at least arguably was, so considering him at this stage of the list is not a tough sell in a vacuum. The issue for me is the general lack of importance that the position appears to have had in this era, especially the pre-NHL time frame. It was still common for skaters to take over in goal on an emergency basis, and while it became less likely to occur as time went on, we still have examples of this happening right up past the end of Vezina's career, Lester Patrick infamously tending net for the Rangers in a Stanley Cup Finals game in the late 1920's.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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With regards to Vezina, I think we are by and large putting the goaltender position itself on trial when considering his candidacy. The evidence seems strong that he was the best pre-consolidation goaltender, or at least arguably was, so considering him at this stage of the list is not a tough sell in a vacuum. The issue for me is the general lack of importance that the position appears to have had in this era, especially the pre-NHL time frame. It was still common for skaters to take over in goal on an emergency basis, and while it became less likely to occur as time went on, we still have examples of this happening right up past the end of Vezina's career, Lester Patrick infamously tending net for the Rangers in a Stanley Cup Finals game in the late 1920's.

I get your point, and sorry if my post sounds very disingenuous (that's not my intention, and I'm not quite sure how to explain this any other way) but...
There are some very obvious cases of all-star Center taking over Defenceman duties as late as the late 1940ies, and of all-star Defenceman taking over Center duties as late as the 60ies.

There doesn't seem to have been any issues with voting in Red Kelly and Doug Harvey -- despite playing D in the 40ies -- and with voting in Jean Béliveau and Stan Mikita -- despite playing C in the 60ies -- so... We can probably assess Vezina on his merits.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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With regards to Vezina, I think we are by and large putting the goaltender position itself on trial when considering his candidacy. The evidence seems strong that he was the best pre-consolidation goaltender, or at least arguably was, so considering him at this stage of the list is not a tough sell in a vacuum. The issue for me is the general lack of importance that the position appears to have had in this era, especially the pre-NHL time frame. It was still common for skaters to take over in goal on an emergency basis, and while it became less likely to occur as time went on, we still have examples of this happening right up past the end of Vezina's career, Lester Patrick infamously tending net for the Rangers in a Stanley Cup Finals game in the late 1920's.

Not a bad point.

The counterargument, of course, is that Vezina had insane longevity for his era (16 years a starter for the Canadiens!), he was considered the best at his position for all or most of the time. So we are already discounting goaltending during his era by not, frankly, ranking him on the level of at least a Hall or Brodeur. (Edit: To be clear, I think we are correct in ranking him under them)

I do like the Jack Adams' quote where he said that Vezina was the only old-timey goaltender who would excel in the "new" NHL of the 1940s/1950s.

Another point: Vezina had serious star power, at least if we look at how many people cared that he died:

wikipedia said:
Well liked in Montreal, Vézina was often seen as the best player on the ice for the Canadiens, and was respected by his teammates, who considered him the spiritual leader of the team.[8] Referred to as "le Concombre de Chicoutimi" (the "Chicoutimi Cucumber") for his cool demeanour on the ice, he was also known as "l'Habitant silencieux" (the "silent Habitant", Habitant being a nickname for the Canadiens), a reference to his reserved personality.[31] He often sat in a corner of the team's dressing room alone, smoking a pipe and reading the newspaper.[32] When news of Vézina's death was announced, newspapers across Quebec paid tribute to the goalie with articles about his life and career. Hundreds of Catholic masses were held in honour of the devout Vézina, and more than 1,500 people filled the Chicoutimi cathedral for his funeral.[26]
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Results from NHL Coaches and Player's Polls

1958 coach's poll
Andy Bathgate: 2nd smartest player, 2nd best stickhandler, 3rd hardest shot, 3rd most accurate shot
Bernard Geoffrion: 1st hardest shot

1965 coach's poll: no available players listed, but limited questions asked
1971 coach's poll: no available players listed
1974 coach's poll: no available players listed

1976 coach's poll
Marcel Dionne: 2nd fastest skater, 2nd best playmaker, 4th most dangerous in goal area, 6th best stickhandler

1981 player's poll
Marcel Dionne: 2nd best hockey sense, 2nd best stickhandler, 3rd most valuable

1984 coach's poll
Scott Stevens: 1st best bodychecker, 2nd toughest player

1990 player's poll
Al MacInnis: 1st hardest slapshot

1993 coach's poll
Al MacInnis: 2nd best shot
Teemu Selanne: 2nd best shot, 4th best pure scorer, 4th best skater
Scott Stevens: 2nd best bodychecker, 3rd best defensive defenseman

Jan 1994 coach's poll
Al MacInnis: 2nd best shot
Teemu Selanne: 2nd best skater
Scott Stevens: 2nd best bodychecker, 3rd best defensive defensive

May 1994 coach's poll
Al MacInnis: 1st best power play point man, 2nd best shot
Scott Stevens: 3rd best defensive defenseman

Notes:
  • I'm omitting "rankings" where the player only got a single vote.
  • As single polls go, I'd take the 1958 one especially seriously. All 6 NHL coaches voted, and all of them coached against every other team 14 times per season.
  • It's a shame that the 1965 coach's poll asked such limited questions. I'd love to see where Horton would place on the "best defensive defenseman" scale, but that was not one of the questions.
  • There are some ties in there. Such as Selanne and MacInnis tying for "2nd best shot" in 1993
  • 2 NHL coaches picked Scott Stevens as "best defensive defenseman" in 1993, 3 coaches picked him in Jan 1994, and 4 coaches picked him in May 1994. (Bourque and Chelios split the majority of the votes each poll). This is Stevens before his transformation into a purely defensive defenseman at the request of coach Jacques Lemaire in 1995.

All from this thread: Player Intangibles - resource
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Not a bad point.

The counterargument, of course, is that Vezina had insane longevity for his era (16 years a starter for the Canadiens!), he was considered the best at his position for all or most of the time. So we are already discounting goaltending during his era by not, frankly, ranking him on the level of at least a Hall or Brodeur. (Edit: To be clear, I think we are correct in ranking him under them)

I do like the Jack Adams' quote where he said that Vezina was the only old-timey goaltender who would excel in the "new" NHL of the 1940s/1950s.

Another point: Vezina had serious star power, at least if we look at how many people cared that he died:

The point about Vezina's longevity is a good one. The game definitely saw changes from the time he broke in to the time of his passing, most importantly allowing goaltenders to drop to the ice to make saves. Vezina thrived throughout, and it doesn't seem like he was really slowing down at the end. Who knows how much longer he could have played.

I get your point, and sorry if my post sounds very disingenuous (that's not my intention, and I'm not quite sure how to explain this any other way) but...
There are some very obvious cases of all-star Center taking over Defenceman duties as late as the late 1940ies, and of all-star Defenceman taking over Center duties as late as the 60ies.

There doesn't seem to have been any issues with voting in Red Kelly and Doug Harvey -- despite playing D in the 40ies -- and with voting in Jean Béliveau and Stan Mikita -- despite playing C in the 60ies -- so... We can probably assess Vezina on his merits.

The required physical skills of a center versus those of a defenseman are nearly identical though. Goaltender is a very unique position. There are still players today that freely transition from defense to forward, Dustin Byfuglien for example, but the idea of a skater having to strap on the pads and stand in goal is comparatively insane.

At its very beginnings, the goaltender was basically just an extra defenseman. Eventually goaltending transitioned into the specialist role that it is today (and has been for many decades of course). I'm not sure it's possible to pinpoint any particular moment when the transition was complete, though the rule allowing them to drop to the ice to make saves could be a candidate. Vezina's career spanned both sides of that rule change. At the start of his career he is measured against the likes of Paddy Moran and Bert Lindsay (Ted's father for those curious), while at the end it is guys like Clint Benedict and Hugh Lehman. Perhaps we could say Vezina is hockey's first true specialist goaltender?
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I'm not going to re-post the playoff R-On/R-Off information from the players who were up last round. The high-level summary was Mahovlich looked really disappointing; Dionne was about as bad as you'd expect; Horton and Geoffrion were inconsistent; and Bathgate looked bad, but in a limited sample, mostly past his peak.

Al MacInnis

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1983-8411 0.91 0.88 4%
1984-854 0.67 0.86 -22%
1985-8621 1.63 0.79 106%
1986-874 0.50 0.75 -33%
1987-887 1.00 1.41 -29%
1988-8922 1.55 1.42 9%
1989-906 1.14 1.17 -2%
1990-917 0.44 1.13 -60%
1992-936 0.56 0.74 -25%
1993-947 2.25 0.46 388%
1994-957 0.63 2.00 -69%
1995-9613 1.20 1.17 3%
1996-976 0.67 1.25 -47%
1997-988 1.20 0.53 128%
1998-9913 0.85 0.75 13%
1999-007 0.83 1.13 -26%
2000-0115 1.13 1.27 -11%
2001-0210 1.50 0.75 100%
2002-033 1.00 1.11 -10%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Inconsistent, but a pretty favourable track record overall. The biggest positive? As MacInnis went, so went the team. When MacInnis outplayed his team, he often dragged them to the second round and beyond; when he struggled, they were often eliminated. Biggest surprise? By this metric, MacInnis was only a bit better than the rest of the team in 1989 when he won the Smythe. Biggest negative? He seemed to have a pretty bad five year hangover after winning the Cup in 1989 (except for 1994) - how much of the blame should he take for the Flames' struggles? Remember that these numbers take into account ES play only - MacInnis was a major contributor on the powerplay and penalty kill.

Scott Stevens

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1982-834 0.67 0.60 11%
1983-848 1.09 0.67 64%
1984-855 0.43 1.25 -66%
1985-869 2.33 1.18 97%
1986-877 1.44 0.67 117%
1987-8813 0.95 1.24 -23%
1988-896 0.67 0.60 11%
1989-9015 0.93 1.10 -15%
1990-9113 1.89 0.74 156%
1991-927 0.44 1.60 -72%
1992-935 0.71 0.44 61%
1993-9420 0.95 1.06 -10%
1994-9520 2.11 2.00 6%
1996-9710 0.80 1.00 -20%
1997-986 2.33 0.33 600%
1998-997 0.75 0.78 -4%
1999-0023 1.60 1.32 22%
2000-0125 1.18 1.83 -36%
2001-026 999.99 - 1000%
2002-0324 2.75 1.12 146%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Very good results overall. Stevens was, on average, 25% better than his team's ES ratio during their five longest Cup runs. An R-On ratio of 1.72 is exceptional in the "lockouts era" (1995 to present). The biggest surprise was a lot of his really big positives came earlier in his career (he performed at a higher level in New Jersey, but the team was much stronger then). His R-On/R-Off split is almost identical to Marian Hossa. His Smythe from 2000 is very good (an almost identical level of performance to MacInnis's - on a slightly weaker team).

Teemu Selanne

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1992-936 0.50 0.73 -31%
1996-9711 0.73 0.54 35%
1998-994 0.67 - 1000%
2000-016 3.00 0.80 275%
2001-0212 0.73 1.31 -45%
2003-0410 0.60 1.40 -57%
2005-0616 1.00 1.67 -40%
2006-0721 1.13 1.57 -28%
2007-086 0.67 0.86 -22%
2008-0913 0.67 1.20 -44%
2010-116 0.50 0.90 -44%
2012-137 1.33 1.11 20%
2013-1412 0.50 0.84 -40%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Inconsistent results. The big disclaimer here is the majority of Selanne's playoff games came when he was past his prime. During 1997 and 1999, when he was at his absolute peak, he vastly outplayed his team. But he was disappointing during some very strong seasons such as 1993, 2006, and 2007. His career R-On and R-off numbers are almost identical to Joe Thornton's (though, obviously, Thornton made the playoffs consistently during career, unlike Selanne).

Career averages

PlayerGPR-OnR-OffChange
Bernie Geoffrion34 1.23 0.82 50.2%
Scott Stevens233 1.22 1.09 12.9%
Al MacInnis177 1.08 0.99 9.3%
Tim Horton106 0.89 0.91 -1.3%
Marcel Dionne49 0.57 0.60 -6.2%
Teemu Selanne130 0.79 1.07 -25.6%
Frank Mahovlich125 0.79 1.38 -42.9%
Andy Bathgate38 0.71 1.50 -52.8%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Those numbers certainly back up the notion that Stevens was the overall best playoff player in the span between lockouts, which I've seen suggested on more than one occasion. Those numbers from 2003 surprised me a little. Visually, he seemed most dominant in the 2000 Cup win, and must have been a near-unanimous choice for the Conn Smythe. I think in 2003 most of the talk was that Brodeur would be the winner if they didn't give it to Giguere in a losing cause. And while we remember Stevens as the playoff dynamo in New Jersey, the numbers from Washington and St. Louis put him in a pretty good light as well. 1986, 87, and 91 teams all suffered upsets, but by this metric specifically, Stevens doesn't appear to have been the culprit.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Those numbers certainly back up the notion that Stevens was the overall best playoff player in the span between lockouts, which I've seen suggested on more than one occasion. Those numbers from 2003 surprised me a little. Visually, he seemed most dominant in the 2000 Cup win, and must have been a near-unanimous choice for the Conn Smythe. I think in 2003 most of the talk was that Brodeur would be the winner if they didn't give it to Giguere in a losing cause. And while we remember Stevens as the playoff dynamo in New Jersey, the numbers from Washington and St. Louis put him in a pretty good light as well. 1986, 87, and 91 teams all suffered upsets, but by this metric specifically, Stevens doesn't appear to have been the culprit.

By the end, the talk in 2003 was split between Brodeur and Niedermayer as the best Devils candidate. (Younger Devils fans who don't really remember 2003 that well retroactively pimped Brodeur for it years after the fact and made it seem like the consensus best Devil).

In 2003, Scott Stevens flat out dominated Joe Thornton and Vinnie LeCavalier in Rounds 1 and 2 as the Devils won both series in 5. Towards the end of round 2, he was hit with an errant puck in the face, came back too soon, and wasn't as effective in rounds 3 and 4 (that's where Niedermayer really took over). About halfway through the following year, Stevens would have to retire because of lingering symptoms of the concussion he had suffered (and playing through it for 2 more rounds).
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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Bathgate and Geoffrion

I have them as my top 2 forwards this round. Here are two posts I previously made on them during the project. Plus a short summary of just how outstanding Geoffrion was as a playoff scorer (I think @VanIslander posted something similar when he first became available).

I (slightly) prefer Bathgate to Dionne

From last round:


When Geoffrion stepped on the ice, he was an elite point producer, regular season or playoffs. He often missed 15-20 games in the regular season (which hurts his end-of-season rankings and thus VsX scores). But he didn't miss games in the playoffs and continued producing at a high rate.

Geoffrion's regular season points rankings: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7
Geoffrion's regular season points-per-game rankings: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10

Details from 3 rounds ago:


This argument wasn't all that compelling compared to the competition 3 rounds ago. But compared to these players, I think it is.

Geoffrion - lead the playoffs in scoring (by double digits!) for all of:

The 1950s: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

The Canadiens team that made 10 (no typo) finals in a row (1951-1960): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

The dynasty that won 5 Cups in a row (1956-1960): Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Reduced to minimizing keystrokes, your argument is that Toe Blake(Geoffrion) was a better coach RS and PO than Phil Watson(Bathgate)/Punch Imlach(Mahovlich) or whoever Marcel Dionne frustrated.

Not rating coaches but players.

As for some of the data.

Geoffrion and his playoff performance. No one gets hurt playing the point on the PP. Geoffrion's weakest PO was 1959 when Beliveau was hurt.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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www.hockeyprospect.com
Switching between skater and goaltender is markedly different than switching from defense to center...any level where multiple players who have not played the position of goaltender before and can just slide in there and do their thing is worthy of serious concern about the position itself...

Even at the amateur level, the difference is much too great for a competitive game...

OHL centre pressed into goalie duty in 13-4 loss | CBC Sports

Given some newspaper accounts and some renditions of how the position was played, plus how interchangeable some of the superlatives are between guys at the supposed top of the heap, I think we should tread awfully carefully with pre-forward pass goaltending...

If we were skeptical of Brad Park because we saw Tremblay and White near him in balloting, we should then, in turn, dismiss pre-1929 goaltending for a few rounds at least...
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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Given some newspaper accounts and some renditions of how the position was played, plus how interchangeable some of the superlatives are between guys at the supposed top of the heap, I think we should tread awfully carefully with pre-forward pass goaltending...
I totally agree... although it almost seems as if we need to take a shot of whisky for even suggesting this (as per the rules of this project).

Vezina is clearly the most difficult for me to rank at his point.
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,353
Switching between skater and goaltender is markedly different than switching from defense to center...any level where multiple players who have not played the position of goaltender before and can just slide in there and do their thing is worthy of serious concern about the position itself...

Even at the amateur level, the difference is much too great for a competitive game...

OHL centre pressed into goalie duty in 13-4 loss | CBC Sports

Given some newspaper accounts and some renditions of how the position was played, plus how interchangeable some of the superlatives are between guys at the supposed top of the heap, I think we should tread awfully carefully with pre-forward pass goaltending...

If we were skeptical of Brad Park because we saw Tremblay and White near him in balloting, we should then, in turn, dismiss pre-1929 goaltending for a few rounds at least...

What do we make of the fact that Clint Benedict and Roy Worters both had seasons with significant Hart Trophy support pre-forward pass? Evidently observers felt that strong play at the position had high value in the handful of years leading up to forward pass liberalization.
 

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