Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 13

[MXD]

Those came in the #40-44 round. For the most part, everyone has been ranked by everybody still.

.... I just noticed one and can't believe it was missed on screening.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX (1927 to 2018)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Marcel Dionne	116.2	115.1	112.1	100.0	100.0	93.3	86.5	86.3	85.7	79.6	103.3	97.5
Andy Bathgate	109.9	106.0	100.0	100.0	100.0	98.7	93.0	92.5	85.6	70.2	101.1	95.6
Teemu Selanne	100.0	100.0	94.5	90.4	90.0	89.2	84.9	82.5	80.8	75.0	92.7	88.7
Bernie Geoffrion	105.6	101.4	88.8	88.5	87.3	79.5	78.3	70.4	70.2	63.9	89.9	83.4
Frank Mahovlich	93.3	90.1	89.4	88.1	87.9	84.5	81.4	81.1	72.9	71.8	87.8	84.1
Al MacInnis	89.6	70.4	69.8	68.3	66.4	65.4	63.4	57.9	56.3	53.8	70.5	66.1
Scott Stevens	65.0	56.5	55.0	50.9	48.9	48.1	42.6	38.5	37.6	37.2	52.4	48.0
Earl Seibert	53.5	53.2	47.7	45.5	44.4	38.9	37.2	35.0	34.7	34.1	45.8	42.4
Tim Horton	50.8	45.2	40.0	37.4	37.2	36.6	35.9	35.7	33.7	32.6	40.4	38.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Will try to add commentary later.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy shares - 1927 to 2018

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Andy Bathgate	1	1	1		1			4
Marcel Dionne		1	2		1			4
Teemu Selanne			1		2			3
Bernie Geoffrion	1						1	2
Earl Seibert				2				2
Frank Mahovlich				1	1			2
Al MacInnis						1		1
Scott Stevens								0
Tim Horton								0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Will try to add commentary later.

 

[MXD]

...I just realized that this round is mostly Defensive-minded D's and Offence-only forwards, which would probably tend to make Al McInnis and Georges Vezina look a tad better.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Sticking to wingers - i must be higher on Geoffrion than most, but I had him going last round, and i think it's definitely time for him.

Me as well. I've always been a peak kinda guy, and Boom-Boom has the numbers and the silverware.

 

[sr edler]

I’m not sure that he’s necessarily eligible because of the 76-goal record or the 20-goals-in-one-month record in 1992-93, but rather that 4-6 years later he was the top skater after Lemieux and Jagr and that 18 years later he was still a top-10 scorer in the NHL.

The top free roaming regular season points producing skater, after Lemieux and Jagr.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I’m not sure that he’s necessarily eligible because of the 76-goal record or the 20-goals-in-one-month record in 1992-93, but rather that 4-6 years later he was the top skater after Lemieux and Jagr and that 18 years later he was still a top-10 scorer in the NHL.

I know this statement is somewhat backed up by Hockey News Yearbooks and the like, but I just don't buy it. Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lindros, Bure, Fedorov...those names were just as likely to pop up in a conversation about best players in the NHL as Selanne was around that time. One thing to consider: How damning is it that Selanne was traded for Oleg Tverdovsky, and later Jeff Friesen/Steve Shields while still a highly productive player?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'd have much preferred Brett Hull. At least he has the peak (and playoffs) along with all that consistent longevity.

I don’t think consistent longevity is necessarily the right argument against Selanne. Brett Hull was a top-10 producer just the 3 times (1990, 1991, 1992). Selanne matches that stretch with his similar run (1997, 1998, 1999) while adding four others (1993, 1996, 2000, 2011). Selanne was also more balanced with five seasons top-10 in assists (1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2011).

Even Selanne’s 2006 (3 points) and 2007 (1 point) saw him finish just shy of top-10 in scoring at 35 and 36 years old.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thinking about it, Selanne is only surprising now in the same way Earl Seibert was 2 rounds ago. First winger of his class to appear, and looks out of place only because clearly superior wingers like Bathgate and Geoffrion are still available.

I personally prefer a retired Soviet and active NHLer to Selanne, but among retired NHL wingers, he's as good as any left. Right now Seibert is right at home with defensemen Horton/Stevens/MacInnis. In 2 rounds, Selanne probably won't look out of place, either.

________________

Bathgate over Selanne is very obvious to me - two offense-only wingers, and the gap between them offensively is quite large in Bathgate's favor. Sure, Selanne was great in international play - that's why I won't dismiss him.... in 2 rounds or so.

________________

But with Bathgate and Geoffrion clearly superior just at the RW position, a now-backlog of defensemen, and Vezina available, that's some pretty tough competition at this point in the project.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm not really sure what to make of this group as a whole. No obvious front-runner or NR material in my eyes. Overall, I'm just not as high on most of these guys as the group is. This round would include up to #70 overall on the aggregate list I believe...and I only had two available candidates within my top 70. The task here will be to figure out which ones I've underrated.

 

[wetcoast]

I had Selanne and Bathgate pretty close to each other actually...is there really a huge gap? The term "slam dunk" was used.

I'll hang up and listen.

That was my first thought as well, is Bathgate really any better than Selanne?

Maybe Selanne gets lost in the great number of Americen and European forwards of his era?

Q had a great post about him up thread that shows he clearly belongs this round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That was my first thought as well, is Bathgate really any better than Selanne?

Maybe Selanne gets lost in the great number of Americen and European forwards of his era?

Q had a great post about him up thread that shows he clearly belongs this round.

We know how you feel about second tier stars (in other words, everyone not yet added) who played before you were born.

To the point:

By every regular season metric available (VsX, Hart finishes, top 5/10 points finishes) Bathgate is clearly ahead of Selanne. That's no slight to Selanne - it's a statement on how there are still some very good other players left.

You'd have to put a HUGE emphasis on Selanne's international record (since his playoff record isn't anything special) to rank Selanne over Bathgate.

 

[sr edler]

Bathgate's playoff record's not anything special either.

 

[MXD]

...Bathgate would be closer to someone like Ted Lindsay than to Selanne if we purely stick to production.

 

[MXD]

Bathgate's playoff record's not anything special either.

... And that probably explains why he hasn't been voted in, if anything. Give him Mike Bossy's playoff record he's probably... well, quite a bit ahead of Mike Bossy.

 

[DannyGallivan]

That was my first thought as well, is Bathgate really any better than Selanne?

Maybe Selanne gets lost in the great number of Americen and European forwards of his era?

Q had a great post about him up thread that shows he clearly belongs this round.

Bathgate did win the Hart and Art Ross. Those awards generally mean that the recipient is a "pretty big deal". Therefore, on at least a couple of occasions, Bathgate separated himself from the pack more than Selanne ever did.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Off-topic but...

Tangentially related to this : QPQ, this is where we're having our first "unranked" player available for voting, right? Or was it last round?

Those came in the #40-44 round. For the most part, everyone has been ranked by everybody still.

Wait... what?!?

"Vote 8 Candidates

Brad Park
Chris Chelios
Ken Dryden
Larry Robinson
Mike Bossy
Newsy Lalonde
Paul Coffey
Steve Yzerman
Ted Lindsay
Terry Sawchuk"

OMF. JC. ITHNOC. (and did you say "those?!?!?") MFS!

 

[MXD]

Off-topic but...

Wait... what?!?
"Vote 8 Candidates

• 
  
  
  • Brad Park
  • Chris Chelios
  • Ken Dryden
  • Larry Robinson
  • Mike Bossy
  • Newsy Lalonde
  • Paul Coffey
  • Steve Yzerman
  • Ted Lindsay
  • Terry Sawchuk"

OMF, JC, WTH, ITHNOC... (and did you say "those?!?!?") MFS!

The one I noticed isn't in this group.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bathgate did win the Hart and Art Ross. Those awards generally mean that the recipient is a "pretty big deal". Therefore, on at least a couple of occasions, Bathgate separated himself from the pack more than Selanne ever did.

Wrong. Bathgate never won the Art Ross:

NHL Art Ross Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[The Macho King]

Wrong. Bathgate never won the Art Ross:

NHL Art Ross Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

He lost on the tiebreaker. The tiebreaker is stupid.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Wrong. Bathgate never won the Art Ross:

NHL Art Ross Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

Let me rephrase... Bathgate finished first in points once (tied Bobby Hull, who had more goals). I misread my info.

 

[ted2019]

Al MacInnis is an interesting case. He had several seasons early on in which someone could consider his "peak". However, he really never dipped that much below it until his eye injury in 03-04. One his Norris at 35 and then finished as the runner-up behind Lidstrom in his last full season. Was a damn good playoff performer also. I had MacInnis a lot lower in my original list, but might have to re-think things.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Al MacInnis is an interesting case. He had several seasons early on in which someone could consider his "peak". However, he really never dipped that much below it until his eye injury in 03-04. One his Norris at 35 and then finished as the runner-up behind Lidstrom in his last full season. Was a damn good playoff performer also. I had MacInnis a lot lower in my original list, but might have to re-think things.

Right now (and that's before all the debates and evidence is presented) I have Al number five in this group. We shall see, though. We shall see...

 

[overpass]

Nice Mahovlich summary.

Watch hilites of him defensively and the question gets asked, "Why does a LW wind-up there without the puck?".

Pulling this from last thread. I’m no scout but when I watched the 1972 Summit Series on DVD I thought Mahovlich looked like the total package with the puck, very dangerous. I also noticed all the circles and fly-bys without the puck. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a forward skate bigger circles when killing a penalty than Frank Mahovlich in Game 1 of the Summit Series.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Selanne? Really?

For an offensive focused player with zero Harts (or serious Hart consideration outside of a 3rd and two 5ths), zero Art Ross trophies, but a few rockets to be put this high? His playoff resume is seriously lacking as well.

Completely agree