Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

[Michael Farkas]

Playoff performance + international performance. Toews and Thornton played together in 2010 Olympic Games. Who was better.

That's correct, sample sizes mean little to me where there is a chance for playoff comparison.

Hasek is my #1 goalie. He had one CS-worthy run, an Olympic gold, and handily outplayed Roy face to face, when everything was on the line... twice.

I can't do enough yoga to contort myself into buying this, with all due respect, Sentinel.

If the best-on-best spots (be it Olympics or the Stanley Cup Playoffs or whatever) are getting enough weight to push a player I would have never even thought to consider in Toews over Joe Thornton...then Hasek is well behind Patrick Roy (who he did not score on in either of those game 7s), he's behind Martin Brodeur, he's probably behind Ken Dryden as well...then you have to consider Plante and even Sawchuk I guess too...

See, here's another one of my tangents coming on...this is like NFL people who rate Tom Brady #1 all time...that's fine and all, that's defensible if you really, really weight playoffs or just plain old championship rings highly...but you can't just do that versus Peyton Manning and then come in with Dan Marino at #2 or #3...it doesn't work that way. You make your bed and you lay in it. You're dragging Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman into relevant spots (when they would otherwise be irrelevant)...Otto Graham is easily top 5...Bart Starr is way up there...Eli Manning gets mentioned in like the top 25 or 30 or something when he doesn't belong in the top 60...etc.

Manning, Marino, Tittle, these guys get slammed as a result. Which again, is fine...Manning and Marino have enough "Hasek stuff" - a mix a singular playoff runs, "beating" an arch-nemesis without ever actually playing him (Manning over Brady in AFC Championship games, for instance) to be in the discussion highly, of course...but it doesn't work for me personally to go "I value playoffs enough to push Jonathan Toews into this thread, much less over Joe Thornton and, also, Dominik Hasek is my #1 goalie"

This weight, and I don't mean to oversell it, and maybe I am, but this weight - to me - pushes Billy Smith into your conversation...

Also, Toews being on the list, means that both Toews and Bergeron are on over Thornton among current era guys...?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Toews, Bergeron, and Kopitar too.

 

[Sentinel]

As long as you are consistent in that, so be it I guess.

I have a feeling my list will vary wildly from yours. For the record I have Joe Thornton is the #8 forward from his era, and 16 forwards are in the top 120 at the moments from that time. I think very highly of Jumbo.

That's fine. Thornton is nowhere near my list. He is a living, breathing embodiment of "choke." Toews (and Niedermeyer) are exactly the opposite.

But, seriously, let's list our post-lockout inclusions. People who had their peak / prime after 2005. Lidstrom and Iginla (early 2000s prime) not included.

11. Sidney Crosby (C)
13. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
32. Evgeni Malkin (C)
54. Pavel Datsyuk (C)
98. Duncan Keith (D)
105. Martin St. Louis (RW)
113. Patrick Kane (RW)
116. Henrik Zetterberg (C)
118. Jonathan Toews (C)

 

[Sentinel]

I can't do enough yoga to contort myself into buying this, with all due respect, Sentinel.

If the best-on-best spots (be it Olympics or the Stanley Cup Playoffs or whatever) are getting enough weight to push a player I would have never even thought to consider in Toews over Joe Thornton...then Hasek is well behind Patrick Roy (who he did not score on in either of those game 7s), he's behind Martin Brodeur, he's probably behind Ken Dryden as well...then you have to consider Plante and even Sawchuk I guess too...

All those football references are thoroughly lost on me.

No, Hasek didn't score on Roy in those game 7s. But his record on Roy facing elimination is 3-0, with zero goals allowed to Patrick's 9 goals + penalty shot.

The difference in clutch factor between Hasek and Roy is much, much, MUCH smaller than between Toews and Thornton. Again, watch the Vancouver Olympics or something...

 

[Sentinel]

I may be off base, but using goaltender performance “face to face” as a ranking criteria seems pretty dumb.

See really little merit in that.

Using "wins" as a goaltender criteria is widely accepted, why not "face to face"? How many times do we hear: "he was totally outplayed by his opponent." We don't ever see that with skaters.

 

[Doctor No]

Using "wins" as a goaltender criteria is widely accepted,

Should it be?

why not "face to face"?

Beyond the problems with using raw wins as a criterion, sample size to name one.

 

[Captain Bowie]

That's fine. Thornton is nowhere near my list. He is a living, breathing embodiment of "choke." Toews (and Niedermeyer) are exactly the opposite.

But, seriously, let's list our post-lockout inclusions. People who had their peak / prime after 2005. Lidstrom is not included.

11. Sidney Crosby (C)
13. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
32. Evgeni Malkin (C)
54. Pavel Datsyuk (C)
98. Duncan Keith (D)
105. Martin St. Louis (RW)
113. Patrick Kane (RW)
116. Henrik Zetterberg (C)
118. Jonathan Toews (C)

Honestly, I didn't expect such a lazy "take" on Joe Thornton in this project. Sounds like something coming from your average casual hockey fan who pays little or no attention to the numbers and figures throughout the years. Since 98/99, Joe is 12th in playoff games played, and 5th in points. Hi PPG isn't among the best of the best playoff performers of this time, but it's still ahead of several other players who have avoided any type of label. To call him the definition of "choke" is just lazy.

14. Crosby
16. Ovechkin
49. Malkin
79. Thornton
84. Iginla
90. St. Louis
105. Chara
117. Datsyuk
120. Karlsson

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'd buy that there can be some intimidation factor, particularly with young goalies vs. vets. ...like if a young Marc-Andre Fleury had to face Martin Brodeur in a playoff series, and you're out there in game 1 of the series and looking across the way at Brodeur, the guy you grew up wanting to be, is warming up like it's any other night...he's done this 200 times, you've done it, like five, and they all pretty much went sh**ty...and you're thinking, "I gotta be perfect...this guy isn't gonna give up a third goal" - I could see that.

But I don't think Tuukka Rask looks across at Andrei Vasilevskiy and cares...or even knows who he is...so I'm not inclined to believe a whole hell of a lot of that head to head stuff...again, maybe small circumstantial factors now and again...but not on the whole...

 

[Sentinel]

Should it be?

But it is. Take up this issue with the entire world of hockey.

Beyond the problems with using raw wins as a criterion, sample size to name one.

One aspect that matters far less to me than to many people here. Face-to-face-against-your-main-opponent, chips-are-down, everything-on-the-line, win-or-die is far more important to me than run-of-the-mill regular season games.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

That's fine. Thornton is nowhere near my list. He is a living, breathing embodiment of "choke." Toews (and Niedermeyer) are exactly the opposite.

But, seriously, let's list our post-lockout inclusions. People who had their peak / prime after 2005. Lidstrom is not included.

11. Sidney Crosby (C)
13. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
32. Evgeni Malkin (C)
54. Pavel Datsyuk (C)
98. Duncan Keith (D)
105. Martin St. Louis (RW)
113. Patrick Kane (RW)
116. Henrik Zetterberg (C)
118. Jonathan Toews (C)

As far as playoff performance goes, one of those guys sticks out to me as significantly worse than the others, and that would be Pavel Datsyuk.

 

[Captain Bowie]

One aspect that matters far less to me than to many people here. Face-to-face-against-your-main-opponent, chips-are-down, everything-on-the-line, win-or-die is far more important to me than run-of-the-mill regular season games.

I'm about as opposite as it comes to that. But that's just me. Again, as long as you are consistent in your approach I can't really take issue with it. I'll be interesting to compare lists when it's all over.

 

[Captain Bowie]

As far as playoff performance goes, one of those guys sticks out to me as significantly worse than the others, and that would be Pavel Datsyuk.

Good point. I'd be curious to hear what puts Datsyuk so high compared to Thornton, whose playoff PPG is significantly better.

 

[Sentinel]

Honestly, I didn't expect such a lazy "take" on Joe Thornton in this project. Sounds like something coming from your average casual hockey fan who pays little or no attention to the numbers and figures throughout the years. Since 98/99, Joe is 12th in playoff games played, and 5th in points. Hi PPG isn't among the best of the best playoff performers of this time, but it's still ahead of several other players who have avoided any type of label. To call him the definition of "choke" is just lazy.

Because he WAS a choker! He didn't just choke once or twice. He choked every goddamn time! Did you even see him in Vancouver? He came in as a center on the only intact forward line and sucked (1G + 1A in 7 GP)! Conversely, did you see Toews and Richards killing it? Did you see Thornton in Turin (1G + 2A in 6 GP)? Did you see him in the 2016 World Cup? TBH I don't even remember him being there, but 1G + 1A in 6 GP is very much in line with everything else. And in the 2016 Finals he was himself again.

The word "choker" in Wikipedia has that shovel of beard next to it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Should it be?



Beyond the problems with using raw wins as a criterion, sample size to name one.

Eventually the ability to salvage or preclude the loser point will come into play.

 

[Sentinel]

Good point. I'd be curious to hear what puts Datsyuk so high compared to Thornton, whose playoff PPG is significantly better.

There is more to life than offensive stats. Datsyuk was invaluable to his team even if he weren't putting up points. Being the best two-way forward in the Western Conference and all. He lead his team in HITS a few time FFS (something that should've never happened, btw). When Thornton wasn't scoring, his value was less than zero.

I maintain that Datsyuk was better in playoffs than Thornton. Sure, Dats's first 3-4 playoffs were very subpar (almost Thornton-like), but then he came into his own and was amazing in playoffs for the rest of his career, points be damned. In both losses to SJ, Datsyuk was easily the best Red Wing on ice. In SJ that role usually belonged to Pavelski.

I actually have Datsyuk exactly one spot above Henri Richard. Similar players.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Because he WAS a choker! He didn't just choke once or twice. He choked every goddamn time! Did you even see him in Vancouver? He came in as a center on the only intact forward line and sucked (1G + 1A in 7 GP)! Conversely, did you see Toews and Richards killing it? Did you see Thornton in Turin (1G + 2A in 6 GP)? Did you see him in the 2016 World Cup? TBH I don't even remember him being there, but 1G + 1A in 6 GP is very much in line with everything else. And in the 2016 Finals he was himself again.

The word "choker" in Wikipedia has a shovel of beard next to it.

I guess I was expecting a more nuanced argument.

 

[Captain Bowie]

There is more to life than offensive stats. Datsyuk was invaluable to his team even if he weren't putting up points. Being the best two-way forward in the Western Conference and all. He lead his team in HITS a few time FFS (something that should've never happened, btw). When Thornton wasn't scoring, his value was less than zero.

Can you quantify this in any way? Like find some way to attached a number to his non-points prowess, and then use the same process for Thornton to show a large contrast in figures?

If not, it comes down to the eye test, and I just don't see what you see.

 

[Sentinel]

I guess I was expecting a more nuanced argument.

If his international stats didn't convince you, I guess I disappointed you. Kinda like Thornton usually does.

 

[Captain Bowie]

If his international stats didn't convince you, I guess I disappointed you. Kinda like Thornton usually does.

I mean, not his entire international resume, since you left off his 6 points in 6 games in 2005 World Cup play.

 

[Sentinel]

Can you quantify this in any way? Like find some way to attached a number to his non-points prowess, and then use the same process for Thornton to show a large contrast in figures?

If not, it comes down to the eye test, and I just don't see what you see.

Given that I watched them both VERY attentively in playoffs (SJS were my Wings' primary opponents), this is where I am fairly confident. I guess you can count the takeaways, the backchecking, the PKs, etc. but I won't. When Thornton wasn't scoring, he was useless (he wasn't even overly physical). When Datsyuk wasn't scoring, he was still the best two-way forward in his conference, often leading his team in hits and with a highlight reel from hell.

 

[Michael Farkas]

For Thornton? Thornton gets used in a defensive, fourth line role in international play and he does that very well...his best defensive play has absolutely come for Team Canada...

 

[Sentinel]

I mean, not his entire international resume, since you left off his 6 points in 6 games in 2005 World Cup play.

You mean 2004. Fine. Add this to his piggy bank of achievements.

Although I would hesitate to call this a "best-on-best" tournament, since so many players declined to play, and Russia used Dainus Zubrus. But that's a whole different topic.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I also wouldn't say it's fair to say if he's not scoring, his value is less than zero. He's received Selke votes in every season since in San Jose. No always significant support, but always a few votes until a 5th place finish recently.

 

[Sentinel]

For Thornton? Thornton gets used in a defensive, fourth line role in international play and he does that very well...his best defensive play has absolutely come for Team Canada...

What "fourth line role"? In 2010 he played with his usual linemates in Marleau and Heatley, the biggest offensive threat in the League! I don't remember who his partners were in 2006 and 2016, but one thing he never was a "defensive fourth line center."

 

[Nick Hansen]

Will there be any Jews on the top 100 list?