Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

[Doctor No]

Other data goes back to 1967-68 if it's useful for the project (you can harvest the first table data yourself; at the moment I don't have top/bottom quartile, or home proportions published but have the tables handy).

Also have postseason as appropriate.

 

[BM67]

Roy played 564 RS games at Home and only 465 Road games over his career, 54.8% home starts. Brodeur's splits are 643 Home, and 623 Road, 50.8% home starts. Of Roy's 25 head-to-head matches vs Brodeur, only 9 were on the road.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Has this been proven with Patrick Roy? I might be mis-remembering, but the old line that he took the easy starts and left Hayward with the harder ones, I thought that had been disproven years ago. There must be data on this that we can review.

Patrick Roy Days of Rest data:

NHL.com - Stats

Go to page 11 of 58. Playing consecutive days in the RS was his weakest option and he did not do it often compared to other goalies. Only 91 such starts out of 1021 RS games or less than 9%. Record 41-31-14, 2.76 GAA(RS career 2.54 GAA)

Canadiens and the Bruins played 8 RS games during the 1988-89 season.
Four each home and away.

In Boston, Canadiens were scheduled 4 times as the second game in two nights for them.

Roy started once. Hayward three times. Roy played when the Bruins were equally tired. Hayward played when the Bruins had 1,3 and 4 days of rest.

In Montreal, Roy started all four games with a rested team, at least 1 day in front of him.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Roy played 564 RS games at Home and only 465 Road games over his career, 54.8% home starts. Brodeur's splits are 643 Home, and 623 Road, 50.8% home starts. Of Roy's 25 head-to-head matches vs Brodeur, only 9 were on the road.

More to it than that. Martin Brodeur appeared in 1266 RS NHL games, 180 with 0 days rest,almost 15%. Page 51 of 58:

NHL.com - Stats

His GAA was 2.28 compared to 2.24 overall or 2.26 and 2.27 with 1 or 2 days rest.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Both goalies took about 3-4 years to establish themselves in the NHL yet neither had health or injury issues.

Contemporaries and predeccessors did not have picked or managed starts.

Would we really say it took 3-4 years? Obviously he split time with Hayward, but that didn’t seem terribly uncommon for the late 80s when many teams employed a more balanced two-Goaltender system.

The most-worked goaltenders between 1985-86 and 1988-89 (John Vanbiesbrouck, Grant Fuhr, and Tom Barrasso) averaged just 54-56 games. Compare this to just 10 years later (1995-96 through 1998-99), when the three most-worked goaltenders averaged 65-71 games.

Vanbiesbrouck actually played more games from 1996-1999 (ranked 9th) than he did from 1986-1989 (ranked 1st).

Roy was one of just four goaltenders to reach 100 Wins over the 1986-1989 frame. Earned a shot at a regular spot by winning the Calder Cup in his draft year, won the Stanley Cup while being the youngest Conn Smythe winner as a rookie, split the Jennings the year after, took a 2nd Team selection in Year Three, and the Vezina and a second Finals run in Year Four.

Not too many hotter starts through the early-20s than that. Sawchuk, Lumley, and who else?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Would we really say it took 3-4 years? Obviously he split time with Hayward, but that didn’t seem terribly uncommon for the late 80s when many teams employed a more balanced two-Goaltender system.

The most-worked goaltenders between 1985-86 and 1988-89 (John Vanbiesbrouck, Grant Fuhr, and Tom Barrasso) averaged just 54-56 games. Compare this to just 10 years later (1995-96 through 1998-99), when the three most-worked goaltenders averaged 65-71 games.

Vanbiesbrouck actually played more games from 1996-1999 (ranked 9th) than he did from 1986-1989 (ranked 1st).

Roy was one of just four goaltenders to reach 100 Wins over the 1986-1989 frame. Earned a shot at a regular spot by winning the Calder Cup in his draft year, won the Stanley Cup while being the youngest Conn Smythe winner as a rookie, split the Jennings the year after, took a 2nd Team selection in Year Three, and the Vezina and a second Finals run in Year Four.

Not too many hotter starts through the early-20s than that. Sawchuk, Lumley, and who else?

We know that the 1980s was not a decade for goaltenders. Previously and later goaltenders would polish their craft in the minors for a few seasons.

 

[MXD]

Would we really say it took 3-4 years? Obviously he split time with Hayward, but that didn’t seem terribly uncommon for the late 80s when many teams employed a more balanced two-Goaltender system.

The most-worked goaltenders between 1985-86 and 1988-89 (John Vanbiesbrouck, Grant Fuhr, and Tom Barrasso) averaged just 54-56 games. Compare this to just 10 years later (1995-96 through 1998-99), when the three most-worked goaltenders averaged 65-71 games.

Vanbiesbrouck actually played more games from 1996-1999 (ranked 9th) than he did from 1986-1989 (ranked 1st).

Roy was one of just four goaltenders to reach 100 Wins over the 1986-1989 frame. Earned a shot at a regular spot by winning the Calder Cup in his draft year, won the Stanley Cup while being the youngest Conn Smythe winner as a rookie, split the Jennings the year after, took a 2nd Team selection in Year Three, and the Vezina and a second Finals run in Year Four.

Not too many hotter starts through the early-20s than that. Sawchuk, Lumley, and who else?

... Ehh... Wasn't Lumley basically the 5th best netminder in a 6-team league in his early 20ies? (let's say, up until 25).

 

[MXD]

I always took for granted that goalies were tandemed in the '80ies (and late 70ies) because that was what coaches would do when they had access to two competent netminders.

 

[Canadiens1958]

... Ehh... Wasn't Lumley basically the 5th best netminder in a 6-team league in his early 20ies? (let's say, up until 25).

3rd or 4th but at the age of 19, 21 and 22 he played complete NHL seasons including all back to back, 0 days of rest games. Likewise Sawchuk at 21 and 22.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I always took for granted that goalies were tandemed in the '80ies (and late 70ies) because that was what coaches would do when they had access to two competent netminders.

Mid 1960s when the two-goalie system was introduced to youth hockey it created a problem. Unless the coach played both equally the parents complained.

Result goalies did not develop the stamina to play anything but partial seasons in the late 1970s and 1980s early 1990s, the time they were reaching the NHL.

As summer hockey developed - camps and non-sanctioned leagues, as well as off ice training, goalies were able to handle a heavier workload.

 

[MXD]

3rd or 4th but at the age of 19, 21 and 22 he played complete NHL seasons including all back to back, 0 days of rest games. Likewise Sawchuk at 21 and 22.

...Because that was how things were at that time.
And come on, he wasn't any better than Rayner or Brimsek (well, maybe Brimsek at the end) or Durnan or Broda. Well, it's that, or we need to seriously reevaluate the legacies of the various defenders on those Detroit teams.

 

[MXD]

Mid 1960s when the two-goalie system was introduced to youth hockey it created a problem. Unless the coach played both equally the parents complained.

Result goalies did not develop the stamina to play anything but partial seasons in the late 1970s and 1980s early 1990s, the time they were reaching the NHL.

As summer hockey developed - camps and non-sanctioned leagues, as well as off ice training, goalies were able to handle a heavier workload.

Hence why I think it's somewhat unfair to penalize the goalies of these eras due to their relatively smaller workload compared to other eras.

 

[DannyGallivan]

That's fine. Thornton is nowhere near my list. He is a living, breathing embodiment of "choke." Toews (and Niedermeyer) are exactly the opposite.

But, seriously, let's list our post-lockout inclusions. People who had their peak / prime after 2005. Lidstrom and Iginla (early 2000s prime) not included.

11. Sidney Crosby (C)
13. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
32. Evgeni Malkin (C)
54. Pavel Datsyuk (C)
98. Duncan Keith (D)
105. Martin St. Louis (RW)
113. Patrick Kane (RW)
116. Henrik Zetterberg (C)
118. Jonathan Toews (C)

Wow, Datsyuk is high. Really high.

 

[quoipourquoi]

...Because that was how things were at that time.
And come on, he wasn't any better than Rayner or Brimsek (well, maybe Brimsek at the end) or Durnan or Broda. Well, it's that, or we need to seriously reevaluate the legacies of the various defenders on those Detroit teams.

That’s probably fair. I was trying to think of goaltenders who were already the starter for multiple Finalists around 22-23-years-old like Roy and Sawchuk, and Lumley came to mind. I certainly wouldn’t argue that he was receiving the same individual attention that they were in their early-20s.

Maybe Matt Murray as well, but he’s only 111 games deep at his 24th birthday. At that age, Roy and Sawchuk were maybe 70 games north of that. Lumley with the same gap over them. Grant Fuhr is another from the two-goaltender systems.

Short supply of goaltenders who have the bulk of their HOF argument done at 23-years-old like these guys. Not sure that rarity necessarily extends itself to value in regard to cross-positional comparison, though I do find less fault in a goaltender starting a career with far less than Sawchuk/Roy had at that age than a skater who has not really established himself within 3-5 years of being drafted.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Will there be any Jews on the top 100 list?

I have Correy Hirsch at number 92, just ahead of Tretiak.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hence why I think it's somewhat unfair to penalize the goalies of these eras due to their relatively smaller workload compared to other eras.

Simply recognizing the achievements of goalies with a greater workloadplaying a more difficult schedule.

 

[Canadiens1958]

...Because that was how things were at that time.
And come on, he wasn't any better than Rayner or Brimsek (well, maybe Brimsek at the end) or Durnan or Broda. Well, it's that, or we need to seriously reevaluate the legacies of the various defenders on those Detroit teams.

Being done. Kelly playing F/D, others advocating for Jack Stewart.

 

[DannyGallivan]

How much stock does anyone take from WHA stats? Does Hull's stats help him? Mark Howe?

Good question. I look at Bobby Hull's WHA tenure as his "lost NHL years". In other words, as incredible as his NHL resume already is, I do consider his WHA accomplishments as further proof of how great he was... although we do need to consider the level of competition. I mean, if we are to accept former Soviet players and other international players, then we need to include the accomplishments of those who played part of their career in the WHA. For example, both Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nielson made my top 120 (albeit further down the list).

This is not an exact science, though. Marc Tardiff tore up the WHA, but he didn't make my top 120 simply because there wasn't enough top-competition proof of his excellence. In fact, Tardiff deserves his own thread. He is an example of a lost legacy. If he played his entire career in the NHL, perhaps he would be on the same level as a Dionne or at least a Perreault.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That’s probably fair. I was trying to think of goaltenders who were already the starter for multiple Finalists around 22-23-years-old like Roy and Sawchuk, and Lumley came to mind. I certainly wouldn’t argue that he was receiving the same individual attention that they were in their early-20s.

Maybe Matt Murray as well, but he’s only 111 games deep at his 24th birthday. At that age, Roy and Sawchuk were maybe 70 games north of that. Lumley with the same gap over them. Grant Fuhr is another from the two-goaltender systems.

Short supply of goaltenders who have the bulk of their HOF argument done at 23-years-old like these guys. Not sure that rarity necessarily extends itself to value in regard to cross-positional comparison, though I do find less fault in a goaltender starting a career with far less than Sawchuk/Roy had at that age than a skater who has not really established himself within 3-5 years of being drafted.

Add Ken Dryden and Frank Brimsek.

BTW, none of your goalies were obvious HHOF choice until years beyond 23. Some like Ron hextall regressed after the age of 22.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good question. I look at Bobby Hull's WHA tenure as his "lost NHL years". In other words, as incredible as his NHL resume already is, I do consider his WHA accomplishments as further proof of how great he was... although we do need to consider the level of competition. I mean, if we are to accept former Soviet players and other international players, then we need to include the accomplishments of those who played part of their career in the WHA. For example, both Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nielson made my top 120 (albeit further down the list).

This is not an exact science, though. Marc Tardiff tore up the WHA, but he didn't make my top 120 simply because there wasn't enough top-competition proof of his excellence. In fact, Tardiff deserves his own thread. He is an example of a lost legacy. If he played his entire career in the NHL, perhaps he would be on the same level as a Dionne or at least a Perreault.

If not for Rick Jodzio.

 

[DannyGallivan]

If not for Rick Jodzio.

Makes you wonder if playing in the circus that was most of the WHA even more difficult for the better players. Sure, the NHL was the wild west in the '70's too, but the WHA was so much more vicious. You took your life in your own hands each and every game. It was like professional wrestling if professional wrestling was 100 per cent real.

 

[MXD]

...Besides, I'm pretty sure Lumley cemented his HHOF status with his three very good seasons with the Leafs rather than with the Wings.

 

[ted2019]

Being done. Kelly playing F/D, others advocating for Jack Stewart.

I think Stewart has a great shot making my list somewhere.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Add Ken Dryden and Frank Brimsek.

BTW, none of your goalies were obvious HHOF choice until years beyond 23. Some like Ron hextall regressed after the age of 22.

Wouldn’t say “obvious” or “cemented” - 23 is very early regardless of position - but the foundation was there. Eric Lindros may be a parallel. In the case of Roy and Sawchuk, it might have been hard to keep either out by 25 though.

Dryden and Brimsek are as good or better in terms of NHL mileage, but Roy and Sawchuk had a head-start in terms of age.

 

[Doctor No]

Mid 1960s when the two-goalie system was introduced to youth hockey it created a problem. Unless the coach played both equally the parents complained.

Result goalies did not develop the stamina to play anything but partial seasons in the late 1970s and 1980s early 1990s, the time they were reaching the NHL.

The bolded statement needs more evidence than what you've provided. It could easily be ascribed to coaching strategy (and the goaltenders were capable of playing longer seasons but were not afforded the chance to exhibit it).