Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

[Captain Bowie]

Compare these two left-wingers: Jerome Iginla (LW) and Dickie Moore (LW).
Then these four centers: Henrik Zetterberg (C), Mike Modano (C), Jonathan Toews (C), Mats Sundin (C)

I have them all within 10 spots of each other

Moore - 60s
Iginla - 80s
The rest off the list. None of those four got any serious consideration, Modano being the closest but still not that close.

 

[ted2019]

Moore - 60s
Iginla - 80s
The rest off the list. None of those four got any serious consideration, Modano being the closest but still not that close.

Iginla is currently off my list. He could slide in somewhere. I have around 73 players ranked. Iggy will mostly likely make my list, just have to find time to do some more digging.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Iginla is currently off my list. He could slide in somewhere. I have around 73 players ranked. Iggy will mostly likely make my list, just have to find time to do some more digging.

It shouldn't be too hard to find a sport for him.

He was the best goal scorer in the league for a time. That awkward period after Bure's late career resurgence and before Ovechkin came onto the scene. Those last few years before the full season lockout he was in the argument for best player in hockey. And did it his whole career with very little support from linemates.

 

[Sentinel]

Moore - 60s
Iginla - 80s
The rest off the list. None of those four got any serious consideration, Modano being the closest but still not that close.

All four should, especially if you consider international success.

Moore keeps sliding for me.

 

[Captain Bowie]

All four should, especially if you consider international success.

Moore keeps sliding for me.

To include all four of those guys, I would likely have to go at least 25 deep for modern era forwards (as in, post-Gretzky inflated numbers era). Should more than 20% of the list really be occupied by ONE position from ONE era?

 

[Batis]

Sometimes I have heard it being argued that Kharlamov did not really separate himself from his peers both when it comes to statistics and award recognition. While this largely may be true it is also worth pointing out that there is one metric where Kharlamov really separated himself from his peers namely when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting shares. The reason why I think that it is worth looking at voting shares beyond only the voting finishes is that it in my opinion is a more accurate metric. Looking only at voting finishes it is easy to assume that all 1st place finishes hold the same value. But if we for example compare Krutovs 1st place finish in 86/87 with a voting share of 0.985 to Larionovs 1st place finish in 87/88 with a 0.550 voting share it does in my opinion seem very inaccurate to suggest that those two finishes should hold exactly the same value and therefore it is more fair to look at the voting shares.

Anyway here is how Kharlamov does when it comes to SPOTY voting shares and how he compares to the other four great Soviet forwards of his generation.

Valery Kharlamov
71/72: 130/180 = 0.722
72/73: 107/177 = 0.605
75/76: 107/192 = 0.557
74/75: 81/195 = 0.415
68/69: 51/165 = 0.309
70/71: 61/204 = 0.299
78/79': 300/1734 = 0.173
73/74: 26/168 = 0.155
69/70: 20/204 = 0.098
79/80: 19/207 = 0.092
77/78: 15/219 = 0.068
76/77: 5/228 = 0.022
3-year average: 0.628
5-year average: 0.522
7-year average: 0.440

Alexander Maltsev
71/72: 130/180 = 0.722
80/81: 121/222 = 0.545
69/70: 104/204 = 0.510
70/71: 70/204 = 0.343
73/74: 38/168 = 0.226
79/80: 38/207 = 0.184
77/78: 33/219 = 0.151
75/76: 28/192 = 0.146
81/82: 17/222 = 0.077
76/77: 9/228 = 0.039
68/69: 5/165 = 0.030
82/83: 7/243 = 0.029
74/75: 5/195 = 0.026
72/73: 2/177 = 0.011
3-year average: 0.592
5-year average: 0.469
7-year average: 0.383

Boris Mikhailov
77/78: 128/219 = 0.584
73/74: 67/168 = 0.399
76/77: 73/228 = 0.320
78/79': 435/1734 = 0.251
79/80: 49/207 = 0.237
74/75: 44/195 = 0.226
72/73: 34/177 = 0.192
68/69: 30/165 = 0.182
70/71: 5/204 = 0.025
75/76: 4/192 = 0.021
3-year average: 0.434
5-year average: 0.358
7-year average: 0.316

Vladimir Petrov
72/73: 104/177 = 0.588
76/77: 90/228 = 0.395
74/75: 49/195 = 0.251
80/81: 28/222 = 0.126
78/79': 129/1734 = 0.074
77/78: 14/219 = 0.064
75/76: 6/192 = 0.031
70/71: 3/204 = 0.015
73/74: 2/168 = 0.012
69/70: 2/204 = 0.010
3-year average: 0.411
5-year average: 0.287
7-year average: 0.218

Alexander Yakushev
74/75: 58/195 = 0.297
72/73: 46/177 = 0.260
68/69: 22/165 = 0.133
71/72: 19/180 = 0.106
75/76: 17/192 = 0.089
73/74: 12/168 = 0.071
79/80: 5/207 = 0.024
78/79: 24/1734 = 0.014
3-year average: 0.230
5-year average: 0.177
7-year average: 0.140

3-year average:
1. Valery Kharlamov: 0.628
2. Alexander Maltsev: 0.592
3. Boris Mikhailov: 0.434
4. Vladimir Petrov: 0.411
5. Alexander Yakushev: 0.230

5-year average:
1. Valery Kharlamov: 0.522
2. Alexander Maltsev: 0.469
3. Boris Mikhailov: 0.358
4. Vladimir Petrov: 0.287
5. Alexander Yakushev: 0.177

7-year average:
1. Valery Kharlamov: 0.440
2. Alexander Maltsev: 0.383
3. Boris Mikhailov: 0.316
4. Vladimir Petrov: 0.218
5. Alexander Yakushev: 0.140

As you can see above Kharlamov stands out as clearly the top forward of his generation when it comes to SPOTY voting shares. Yes Maltsev is rather close over 3 years but over both 5 and 7 years Kharlamov is clearly ahead. It is also worth noting how far ahead of Mikhailov that Maltsev is. Both when it comes to top results but also considering that Maltsev recieved votes in 14 seasons compared to Mikhailovs 10 seasons. I know that most people rank Mikhailov ahead of Maltsev but how far ahead should he really be ranked? For what it is worth the SPOTY voters seemed to consider Maltsev the somewhat superior player over their careers. Now I am not pretending that SPOTY voting means everything and there are many other metrics to use when ranking Soviet players but it definitely means something and I personally don't see much of a case for having Mikhailov very far ahead of Maltsev.

It is also very clear that Yakushev by far had the weakest SPOTY voting record of the top 70's forwards. And I personally don't think that Yakushev has much of a case for being ranked ahead of any of the other four forwards. Unless one puts an incredible amount of value on performances against North American opponents.

Edit: As you can see I used the Izvestia golden stick voting as a stand in for the Soviet player of the year voting in 78/79.

 

[Batis]

To keep going on the subject Soviet player of the year voting shares here is how Kharlamov and the other 70's forwards compares to all Soviet forwards.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.747
2. Anatoly Firsov 0.650
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4. Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.434
7. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.432
8. Vladimir Petrov 0.411
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.304
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.303

5-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.660
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.522
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.469
5. Anatoly Firsov 0.418
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.358
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.287
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.264 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.192
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.189

7-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.551
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.440
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.383
5. Boris Mikhailov 0.316
6. Anatoly Firsov 0.299 (Only recieved votes in 5 seasons)
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.218
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.189 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Igor Larionov 0.144
10. Alexander Yakushev 0.140

I think that it should be rather obvious which 8 forwards (Makarov, Firsov, Krutov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Starshinov and Petrov) have the most impressive Soviet player of the year voting records considering that they were top 8 in all of the 3-, 5- and 7-year average lists. After them the group of Balderis, Bykov, Larionov and Yakushev comes with Vikulov arguably joining them as well. But since the top group probably are more relevant for this project I thought that I could give my opinion on how I think that these forwards should rank when it comes to the most impressive SPOTY voting records.

1. Sergey Makarov: Being the clear leader in all of the 3-, 5- and 7-year averages makes Makarov a pretty easy choice as the forward with the most impressive SPOTY voting record. When including the Izvestia golden stick voting from 78/79 Makarov recieved votes in 12 straight seasons starting at age 19 in 77/78 and keeping the streak going for the rest of his career in Europe. Makarovs peak voting share of 0.871 from 84/85 is the 3rd strongest single season voting share among forwards behind only Krutovs 0.985 from 86/87 and Firsovs 0.895 from 67/68. Additionally Makarovs second strongest single season voting share of 0.754 from 79/80 is 4th on that list.

2. Anatoly Firsov: As earlier mentioned considering that Firsov was 26 years old during the first season when the SPOTY was awarded his voting record is really exceptionally strong. Had the award been around during Firsovs entire prime he would probably have given Makarov a run for his money on the 3-year average list and would probably have been 2nd on the 5-year average list as well. This is supported by that Makarov is the only forward who had stronger results than Firsov from age 26 and onwards both over 3 years (Makarov 0.695 vs Firsov 0.650) and 5 years (Makarov 0.501 vs Firsov 0.418). And even without any speculation Firsov being 2nd in 3-year average and 5th in 5-year average is very impressive as well.

3. Valery Kharlamov: Kharlamovs results measures up very well even when looking at all forwards and a case can certainly be made for that he has the second most impressive voting record. Kharlamovs 5- and 7-year averages are especially impressive and him recieving votes in 12 seasons is also something that stands out as only Maltsev and Makarov managed to do that among forwards.

4. Vladimir Krutov: Krutov is in my opinion generally very underrated and his SPOTY voting record really shows just how highly regarded he was in the Soviet Union during his prime. Being top-3 on all of these lists is very impressive even if Firsov likely would have pushed him out of the top 3 on the 5- and 7-year average lists had the award been around earlier. Krutov recieved votes in 10 straight seasons over his prime years and as earlier mentioned his peak voting share of 0.985 in 86/87 is the highest voting share in the awards history.

5. Alexander Maltsev: Maltsev is the forward who recieved votes in the highest number of seasons (14) and his top results are also very strong as evident by him being top-5 on all of these lists. Just a overall very strong voting record achivied over a very long prime period for Soviet standards.

6. Boris Mikhailov: Another strong voting record. It should be pointed out that Mikhailovs voting record probably takes somewhat of a hit from that one of his strongest seasons is the one where we only have the results from the Izvestia golden stick voting and at first glance it seems like the Izvestia voting was more spread out over the field and that recieving high voting shares was somewhat more difficult. So Mikhailovs voting record may be at least somewhat closer to Maltsevs than it appears here.

7. Vyacheslav Starshinov: Considering that Starshinov was 27 years old when the the SPOTY award was introduced his voting record is very impressive. He still managed to finish 7th in 3-year average and top 8 on all lists. I think that Starshinov was very underrated during the Non NHL European project (and that includes by myself) and had I made a list today Starshinov would have been much higher on it and ahead of players like Yakushev, Larionov and Balderis which I had clearly ahead of him back then.

8. Vladimir Petrov: It is often pointed out that Petrovs voting record is far from living up to his scoring achiviements and I would definitely say that this is true considering that Petrov was a 5-time Soviet League scoring champion and a 3-time scoring champion at the WHC. Still I would say that his voting record is at least respectable. Not overly great but still far stronger than for example Larionovs voting record.

So this is my analysis of the SPOTY voting shares of Soviet forwards. Sometime this coming week I will try to post a analysis of the defencemen and the goaltenders.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Please provide the criteria for the SPOTY voting so that comparables may be made across similar league voting.

 

[Batis]

Please provide the criteria for the SPOTY voting so that comparables may be made across similar league voting.

I don't know exactly what you mean with "the criteria for the SPOTY voting" but this post explains the methodology.

Here is an example of what I did if its not totally clear. In the 86/87 Soviet player of the year voting there was a total of 89 voters who each voted for 3 players. A first place vote gave 3 points,a second place vote 2 points and a third place vote 1 point. Which means that the maximum amount of points available to each player was 267 (89 times 3). During that season 85 of the 89 voters had Vladimir Krutov in first place and the remaining 4 voters had him in second place which means that Krutov got 263 pts out the 267 pts available to him. This gave him a voting share of 0.985 which is the highest single season voting share of any player in the Soviet player of the year voting history.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I don't know exactly what you mean with "the criteria for the SPOTY voting" but this post explains the methodology.

Guidelines and considerations for each voter.

 

[Theokritos]

Please provide the criteria for the SPOTY voting so that comparables may be made across similar league voting.

It was a voting to determine the Best Player of the Season (overall: domestic+international). That was the actual name of the poll, which should clarify the definition. Voters were the Soviet journalists who covered hockey (mostly print, from daily to monthly papers; but also radio/TV commentators).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Thank you.

 

[Staniowski]

Valery Kharlamov
71/72: 130/180 = 0.722
72/73: 107/177 = 0.605
75/76: 107/192 = 0.557
74/75: 81/195 = 0.415
68/69: 51/165 = 0.309
70/71: 61/204 = 0.299
78/79': 300/1734 = 0.173
73/74: 26/168 = 0.155
69/70: 20/204 = 0.098
79/80: 19/207 = 0.092
77/78: 15/219 = 0.068
76/77: 5/228 = 0.022
3-year average: 0.628
5-year average: 0.522
7-year average: 0.440

Kharlamov's best finishes were generally earlier in his career; Mikhailov, the opposite.

4. Vladimir Krutov: Krutov is in my opinion generally very underrated and his SPOTY voting record really shows just how highly regarded he was in the Soviet Union during his prime. Being top-3 on all of these lists is very impressive even if Firsov likely would have pushed him out of the top 3 on the 5- and 7-year average lists had the award been around earlier. Krutov recieved votes in 10 straight seasons over his prime years and as earlier mentioned his peak voting share of 0.985 in 86/87 is the highest voting share in the awards history.

Yeah, Krutov tends to get underrated now. What a talent he was.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

To include all four of those guys, I would likely have to go at least 25 deep for modern era forwards (as in, post-Gretzky inflated numbers era). Should more than 20% of the list really be occupied by ONE position from ONE era?

This echoes my sentiments.

I do have Modano as a fringe candidate. I gave Toews and Zetterberg a look due to their importance to Cup winners. Zetterberg is actually still on the absolute tail end of my 120, but I'm not sure he survives further revisions. Sundin probably makes my top 200, but not by a lot. Good and consistent for a long time, never a truly great franchise player, mediocre at best playoff record. Post-iron curtain international play isn't worth much in my books, but I don't begrudge anyone who puts importance on it either. Sundin and Toews would certainly be helped if I did.

So on an isolated basis, I can see a case being made for any of these guys. But as you say, how many post-iron curtain forwards can you shoehorn onto the list? Right now I have 12...(and that excludes Lemieux, Yzerman, and Messier who I classed as 80's era guys). That's 17% of the forwards I have listed, which seems about right. I'd say maybe 15 as about as many as I could reasonably justify...but I've still got Oates, St. Louis, Iginla, Kane, Lindros on the outside looking in at this exact moment. So even adding a few more is no guarantee of inclusion of any one particular player. If any of those guys I just listed do end up getting in, it's probably at the expense of a Francis, Selanne, Zetterberg, or Thornton. Review of Cournoyer and Bucyk notwithstanding.

 

[Captain Bowie]

This echoes my sentiments.

I do have Modano as a fringe candidate. I gave Toews and Zetterberg a look due to their importance to Cup winners. Zetterberg is actually still on the absolute tail end of my 120, but I'm not sure he survives further revisions. Sundin probably makes my top 200, but not by a lot. Good and consistent for a long time, never a truly great franchise player, mediocre at best playoff record. Post-iron curtain international play isn't worth much in my books, but I don't begrudge anyone who puts importance on it either. Sundin and Toews would certainly be helped if I did.

So on an isolated basis, I can see a case being made for any of these guys. But as you say, how many post-iron curtain forwards can you shoehorn onto the list? Right now I have 12...(and that excludes Lemieux, Yzerman, and Messier who I classed as 80's era guys). That's 17% of the forwards I have listed, which seems about right. I'd say maybe 15 as about as many as I could reasonably justify...but I've still got Oates, St. Louis, Iginla, Kane, Lindros on the outside looking in at this exact moment. So even adding a few more is no guarantee of inclusion of any one particular player. If any of those guys I just listed do end up getting in, it's probably at the expense of a Francis, Selanne, Zetterberg, or Thornton. Review of Cournoyer and Bucyk notwithstanding.

I went 16 deep, and that's with Kane, Modano and Robitaille on the outside looking in.

 

[Sentinel]

I went 16 deep, and that's with Kane, Modano and Robitaille on the outside looking in.

So can you make a list of Top 20 21st Century forwards?

Btw, I rank Toews and Zetterberg above Thornton because of their clutch play and Sundin above Thornton because of his international play.

 

[Captain Bowie]

So can you make a list of Top 20 21st Century forwards?

Btw, I rank Toews and Zetterberg above Thornton because of their clutch play and Sundin above Thornton because of his international play.

I have Thornton well above all of those guys based on their meat of their careers, the multiple season of playing hockey at a higher level. That other stuff is just the trimmings for me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In the part where it says "I rank Toews...above Thornton" that's just like a figure of speech, right...?

That puts such a heavy weight on playoff performance that it ought to alter your list fairly dramatically...like Hasek isn't a top 3 goalie for you then, right?

 

[Captain Bowie]

So can you make a list of Top 20 21st Century forwards?

Btw, I rank Toews and Zetterberg above Thornton because of their clutch play and Sundin above Thornton because of his international play.

But that list isn't all just 21st century forwards, it's pretty post-Gretzky/80's era. So guys who started after of played majority of their careers after Gretzky's reign with the Oilers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

In the part where it says "I rank Toews...above Thornton" that's just like a figure of speech, right...?

That puts such a heavy weight on playoff performance that it ought to alter your list fairly dramatically...like Hasek isn't a top 3 goalie for you then, right?

New archival data is very favourable to O6 goalies and Dryden, Brodeur. Less so for Roy and Hasek plus a number of the actives.

 

[MXD]

...It seems new data is awful for Terry Sawchuk more than anything else.

 

[Sentinel]

In the part where it says "I rank Toews...above Thornton" that's just like a figure of speech, right...?

That puts such a heavy weight on playoff performance that it ought to alter your list fairly dramatically...like Hasek isn't a top 3 goalie for you then, right?

Playoff performance + international performance. Toews and Thornton played together in 2010 Olympic Games. Who was better.

That's correct, sample sizes mean little to me where there is a chance for head to head comparison.

Hasek is my #1 goalie. He had one CS-worthy run, an Olympic gold, and handily outplayed Roy face to face, when everything was on the line... twice.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Playoff performance + international performance. Toews and Thornton played together in 2010 Olympic Games. Who was better.

That's correct, sample sizes mean little to me where there is a chance for playoff comparison.

Hasek is my #1 goalie. He had one CS-worthy run, an Olympic gold, and handily outplayed Roy face to face, when everything was on the line... twice.

As long as you are consistent in that, so be it I guess.

I have a feeling my list will vary wildly from yours. For the record I have Joe Thornton is the #8 forward from his era, and 16 forwards are in the top 120 at the moments from that time. I think very highly of Jumbo.

 

[K Fleur]

I may be off base, but using goaltender performance “face to face” as a ranking criteria seems pretty dumb.

See really little merit in that.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I may be off base, but using goaltender performance “face to face” as a ranking criteria seems pretty dumb.

See really little merit in that.

That's a good point. Even less so than 2 forwards face to face, who at least have a chance of having a direct impact on the play of the opposition. As a goalie, what could you possibly do to help or hurt the guy in the opposite crease?