Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

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vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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'95 niedermayer was good in the same way that '01 alex tanguay was good. he was good, very good at times, and had a memorable highlight reel play in the finals that gave you the glimpse of maybe a future superstar.* but we're talking about the top 100 players of all time here. no niedermayer was not remotely elite in 1995.

* one guy never got there, of course. the other took another eight years to get there.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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I'm giving (and I'll give) exactly zero mucks about enshrinement date...
To a point...

For instance, I think all of us here should safely ignore how ridiculously long it took the HoF to honor Clint Benedict. On the other hand (and since he's been mentioned a short while ago), Dit Clapper is in a pretty rarefied group- players who entered the Hall bypassing the waiting period. Now, that's not an end-all to the matter... but it means that many with the freshest memories of his play thought extremely highly of it-- and I should take that into consideration in my assessments.
 

seventieslord

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I don't have Keith that far up either. Keith wasn't even in my 1st draft of top 120. 2nd draft he is in the 100/120 range. Interesting take I have is that Keith's TOI in the playoffs is 2:58 more then his regular season. Doughty's TOI in the playoffs is about 1:36 more. Does that mean that Keith is/was more valuable to the Hawks then Doughty is/was to the Kings? Also, it's interesting to see that Keith is on ice for a lot more goals against then Doughty is/was. I understand that system has a lot to do with this, but was on ice for 776 goals against in 770 games played. Keith was on ice for 1211 goals against in only 995 games played.

It often has a lot to do with how much OT the team played in the playoffs.
 

Michael Farkas

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This is a slippery slope because of all the connections we can make...why would we ignore some things and not others...?

Like...Eddie Shore didn't get in with the first wave...but Harvey Pulford, Hod Stuart and Eddie Gerard did...

Rayner didn't go in until '73...Worters til '69...Brimsek til '66...

Unless we have some sort of documented reasoning behind induction dates, I don't read a lot into it...
 
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ResilientBeast

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This is a slippery slope because of all the connections we can make...why would we ignore some things and not others...?

Like...Eddie Shore didn't get in with the first wave...but Harvey Pulford, Hod Stuart and Eddie Gerard did...

Rayner didn't go in until '73...Worters til '69...Brimsek til '66...

Unless we have some sort of documented reasoning behind induction dates, I don't read a lot into it...

The first wave was all deceased players in 1945 if I recall correctly
 
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MXD

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To a point...

For instance, I think all of us here should safely ignore how ridiculously long it took the HoF to honor Clint Benedict. On the other hand (and since he's been mentioned a short while ago), Dit Clapper is in a pretty rarefied group- players who entered the Hall bypassing the waiting period. Now, that's not an end-all to the matter... but it means that many with the freshest memories of his play thought extremely highly of it-- and I should take that into consideration in my assessments.

Was the waiting period actually a thing? I mean... The first wave was mostly comprised of dead people.
 
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MXD

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This is a slippery slope because of all the connections we can make...why would we ignore some things and not others...?

Like...Eddie Shore didn't get in with the first wave...but Harvey Pulford, Hod Stuart and Eddie Gerard did...

Rayner didn't go in until '73...Worters til '69...Brimsek til '66...

Unless we have some sort of documented reasoning behind induction dates, I don't read a lot into it...

...And Aurèle Joliat was enshrined before Bill Cook and Charlie Conacher. And Harry Oliver was enshrined before Busher Jackson...
 

Kyle McMahon

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...And Aurèle Joliat was enshrined before Bill Cook and Charlie Conacher. And Harry Oliver was enshrined before Busher Jackson...

Conn Smythe's influence kept Jackson out of the Hall of Fame for all those years, old Connie not approving of Busher's supposed playboy lifestyle.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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I'm pretty sure that the fact that Dit Clapper retired as the NHL's all-time leader in games played by a pretty wide margin was a big reason he was inducted so fast.
 

ted2019

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Bio from TDMM:
overpass said:
Total first-team voting points: Jack Stewart 20, Earl Seibert 12, Flash Hollett 9, Jack Crawford 7, Babe Pratt 3, Dit Clapper 1​
He then went on to win the Stanley Cup as Detroit's #1 defenseman.

2. Stewart is the only defenseman to be an All Star both before and after the Red Line was introduced.

Stewart was unable to build off his spectacular 1942-43 season because he left the NHL to serve for two years during World War 2. Stewart returned in 1945-46 and had to adjust to a different style of game: The addition of the Red Line and the new ability of teams to pass forward between zones completely changed the way a defenseman would defend the transitions game. In Stewart's first season back, he was a 2nd Team All Star, and finished 5th in Hart voting (first among all defensemen).

3. Consistently an elite player in his prime

Stewart finished top 5 in All-Star voting every season he played from the ages of 25-32 before retiring due to injuries:

1942-43: 1st in All-Star voting
1943-44: Lost season to World War 2
1944-45: Lost season to World War 2
1945-46: 4th in All Star voting
1946-47: 3rd in All Star voting
1947-48: 2nd in All Star voting
1948-49: 2nd in All Star voting
1949-50: 5th in All Star voting

1949-50 would be Stewart's last full year of hockey and last season in Detroit. He ended his tenure in Detroit by winning his second Cup, this time as the hard-hitting stay at home partner to a young player named Red Kelly. He was 32 years old. He would have two injury-filled seasons in Chicago afterwards before calling it quits for good.

When he retired for the first time in 1951, the Edmonton Journal wrote:
His retirement would mark the end of one of the longest and most valuable careers in N.H.L. history.​
4. Style of Play

Wikipedia has a good article on Black Jack Stewart, with a well-sourced description of his playing style:

During his career, Stewart was regarded as one of the hardest bodycheckers in the National Hockey League.[2] He was also carried the heaviest stick in the league, explaining that "I don't use it for scoring. I use it for breaking arms".[5] Stewart was known for his large grin when hitting opponents; teammate Ted Lindsay noted "when he had that smile, it was time for the opposition to look out".[10] He led the league with 73 penalty minutes in 1945–46 ,[5] and in the late 1940s, his rivalry with Milt Schmidt of the Boston Bruins was so intense that their physical interactions occasionally overshadowed the games themselves.[2]

Stewart hated his nickname of "Black Jack", believing it implied he was a dirty player. Hockey Hall of Fame defenceman King Clancy agreed he was not a dirty, but stated he was the "roughest son of a gun you'd ever want to meet."[9] His style of play resulted in numerous injuries; Stewart had dozens of scars and required over 200 stitches to close various cuts during his career. One year saw him play the entire season with a broken hand.[9]

Stewart showed good judgment as a defenceman, rarely taking himself out of position to throw a hit.[2] His coach in Detroit, Xxx, called Stewart "one of the best blueliners in the game",[2] and claimed he was the best defenceman in Red Wings history.[21] He was regarded as a good skater, able to clear the puck out of his zone and who rarely turned it over to the other team.[21]
Click to expand...​
Stewart explained how he got his nickname:

Jack Stewart said:
I bodychecked some fellow one night and when he woke up the next day in the hospital he asked who'd hit him with a blackjack​
5. Newspaper articles

The following was originally posted by overpass: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=40938605&postcount=234

Calgary Herald, Jan 23, 1943:
Jack Stewart called Greatest N.H.L. Defender

Today Stewart ranks as one of the National League's most accomplished rearguards.

If you don't think so Manager Jack Adams will do his best to dispel all doubts.

"He's a manager's dream," Adams told reporters not long ago. "He's a very deceptive skater. He packs a terrific shot. He's an uncanny judge of a forward's play. He's one of the greatest of the game."

In fact, said Adams, summing up, he's the greatest defenceman in the game today.

There may be some mild rebuttals. Earl Seibert of Chicago Black Hawks, for instance, would be accorded high rating defensively by an impartial tribunal. Offensively, the Chicago star ranks second only to Walter (Babe) Pratt of Toronto Maple Leafs.

Seibert's value was sharply stressed early in December when an injury forced him to the sidelines. Bert Gardiner led all N.H.L. goalies at the time, but before Seibert returned the Chicago netminder was displaced by Johnny Mowers of Detroit. Without Seibert, the Chicago defence collapsed.
After seeing the quote above, I wondered if Stewart beat out Seibert in all-star voting in part because he played more games. But both played 44 of 50 regular season games, so that wasn't a factor.

A couple of articles from when Stewart retired:

Edmonton Journal, Jan 3, 1951:
His retirement would mark the end of one of the longest and most valuable careers in N.H.L. history.

After 1 1/2 years with Pittsburgh in the American Hockey League, he went to Detroit, providing a tower of strength behind the blueline until last fall.

He was regarded as the policeman of the Wings and the avenger of wrongs done to younger or smaller teammates.

Away-from-home crowds loved to see the big watchdog shunted to the penalty box.

Never a prolific scorer, Stewart notched 30 goals in his league play with Detroit. His occasional scoring rush usually came at a crucial time. He bagged five in nine years of playoffs.

Detroit fans loved the big Manitoban.

He is a member of Detroit's hockey Hall of Fame and was five times a member of one of the All-Star squads. He was the first defence player in N.H.L. history to win All-Star rating under the changed rules, both before and after the advent of the centre red line.​
Dink Carroll - Montreal Gazette, Jan 4, 1951
Black Jack was a good thing while he lasted and he lasted fairly long in a league where life is short. He was the best blue line belter in the history of the Detroit Red Wings, according to Jack Adams, over the nine seasons he played for them.

For a fellow who could hit such a terrific bodycheck he wasn't very big; his best playing weight was 185 pounds. But he was all bone and muscle. Jack Adams, to whom superlatives come so readily, called him "one of the strongest guys I have ever seen in a hockey uniform." He owns a wheat farm near Pilot Mound, Man., lives outdoors most of the time and is used to hard manual work, which probably accounts for his fine physique.
It's amazing how little material there is in the files on him. That's because he is so quiet and unobtrusive off the ice.
One of his distinctions is that he is the most stitched-up of modern hockey players. Among the souvenirs he will carry away from the N.H.L. are the 201 stitches required to close the 48 wounds in his physiognomy.

But Black Jack could play hockey. He was a good blocking defenceman, could clear the puck out of his own defence zone, rarely made a bad pass and he could skate faster than most spectators realized. He was a good ice general and was respected all around the league. He put plenty of gimp in that weak Chicago defence and pepped up the whole team. It was noticeable when he appeared here early in the season with the Black Hawks that their forwards were checking back, but they returned to their old careless methods the minute he was out of there.

Those percentage-minded fellows who make the odds paid him an unconscious tribute these last few days. Last week Detroit was 8-to-5 to win the Stanley Cup; Toronto 12-to-5, Rangers 8-to-1, Canadiens and Chicago 10-to-1, and BOston 12-to-1. When it became known that Stewart was all through as a hockey player the odds on the Black Hawks went to 15-to-1.
As with other star defencemen of his day and earlier, his qualities as an "ice general" were important. Rod Langway might be a modern player who would be considered an "ice general".
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Not quite. Dit Clapper was an ALL STAR before the Red Line was introduced as well as the first season that the Red Line was introduced.

Clapper was a 2nd Team All Star in a war ravaged year. But you're right - technically, the quoted statement was inaccurate, as that was also the year the Red Line was introduced.

Stewart came back to the NHL after the war was over and was an All Star again. So technically it should say "Stewart was the only defensemen to be an All Star before the war, leave the NHL, then come back after the Red Line was added to be an All-Star again in a full-stength league."
 
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Captain Bowie

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Clapper was a 2nd Team All Star in a war ravaged year. But you're right - technically, the quoted statement was inaccurate, as that was also the year the Red Line was introduced.

Stewart came back to the NHL after the war was over and was an All Star again. So technically it should say "Stewart was the only defensemen to be an All Star before the war, leave the NHL, then come back after the Red Line was added to be an All-Star again in a full-stength league."
Doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.
 

ted2019

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Does Pat LaFontaine have a shot at anyone's top 120?
How about Frank Foyston?
 
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Captain Bowie

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Lafontaine is an easy no. Only has one season that others have multiple of and will be still left off. Doesn't have longevity. His peak isn't particularly interesting outside on season. Some decent goal scoring seasons but only top 10 twice (2 5th's).

In the 4 years span that included his 2 100-point seasons, he's 6th in points and 4th in goals. His numbers in this span are equivalent to Luc Robitaille, but doesn't have the benefit of a 19-year career (and Luc still ended up off my list).

Foyston someone would have to make a really good case for.
 

ted2019

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Lafontaine is an easy no. Only has one season that others have multiple of and will be still left off. Doesn't have longevity. His peak isn't particularly interesting outside on season. Some decent goal scoring seasons but only top 10 twice (2 5th's).

In the 4 years span that included his 2 100-point seasons, he's 6th in points and 4th in goals. His numbers in this span are equivalent to Luc Robitaille, but doesn't have the benefit of a 19-year career (and Luc still ended up off my list).

Foyston someone would have to make a really good case for.

What I find fascinating about Robitaille, with all of the 1st & 2nd team AS, he has ZERO Hart votes. Just trying to stir some conversation since it's been dead in this topic, I've been checking out Bryan Hextall Sr. a bit and thinking at looking at him a bit deeper. Also have been looking at Doug Bentley & Babe Dye. Debating if Jacques Lemaire deserves a spot somewhere.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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What I find fascinating about Robitaille, with all of the 1st & 2nd team AS, he has ZERO Hart votes. Just trying to stir some conversation since it's been dead in this topic, I've been checking out Bryan Hextall Sr. a bit and thinking at looking at him a bit deeper. Also have been looking at Doug Bentley & Babe Dye. Debating if Jacques Lemaire deserves a spot somewhere.

Babe Dye, short but prolific career in the early NHL. 203 goals in 272 games. 4th best goals per game. Also a great baseball & football player.
 

Sentinel

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Compare these two left-wingers: Jerome Iginla (LW) and Dickie Moore (LW).
Then these four centers: Henrik Zetterberg (C), Mike Modano (C), Jonathan Toews (C), Mats Sundin (C)

I have them all within 10 spots of each other :D
 

The Panther

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What I find fascinating about Robitaille, with all of the 1st & 2nd team AS, he has ZERO Hart votes.
Robitaille's best bet to have received Hart votes were probably 1987-88 (his 2nd year; the last Kings year pre-Gretzky) and 1992-93 (when Gretzky was injured half the season and Luc scored 63 goals and 125 points).

1987-88 I can understand in that he was up against Gretzky and Lemieux, and the Kings sucked. If the Kings had made the playoffs, maybe a couple of L.A. writers throw him a 3rd-place vote. But on a 68-point team, when a teammate (Carson) gets more goals then Luc, he's not gonna get any Hart votes.

I am a little surprised he got nada in 1992-93, though. If Hockey Ref. is correct, Pierre Turgeon got two 2nd-place votes and six 3rd-place votes... and Robitaille got zero, for essentially having the same season? I suspect some East-coast bias there, as in "We couldn't stay awake to watch L.A.'s games".

Beyond those two seasons (one of which, as I showed, was pretty much impossible anyway), Lucky Luc was up against Gretzky (his teammate) and the whole stash of early-90s forwards, which was a mile deep.

I dunno, I wouldn't hold it against him. For me, he was probably the 4th or 5th most valuable player in 1992-93.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Compare these two left-wingers: Jerome Iginla (LW) and Dickie Moore (LW).
Then these four centers: Henrik Zetterberg (C), Mike Modano (C), Jonathan Toews (C), Mats Sundin (C)

I have them all within 10 spots of each other :D

Currently, Dickie Moore is the only one on my list.
 

MXD

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I am a little surprised he got nada in 1992-93, though. If Hockey Ref. is correct, Pierre Turgeon got two 2nd-place votes and six 3rd-place votes... and Robitaille got zero, for essentially having the same season? I suspect some East-coast bias there, as in "We couldn't stay awake to watch L.A.'s games".

To be honest, it's mind-boggling that both ended up with any kind of support (and keep in mind there were only 3 votes).
 

Dennis Bonvie

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To a point...

For instance, I think all of us here should safely ignore how ridiculously long it took the HoF to honor Clint Benedict. On the other hand (and since he's been mentioned a short while ago), Dit Clapper is in a pretty rarefied group- players who entered the Hall bypassing the waiting period. Now, that's not an end-all to the matter... but it means that many with the freshest memories of his play thought extremely highly of it-- and I should take that into consideration in my assessments.

It seems that character was a much bigger issue in the early days of the Hall. It didn't hurt Clapper being a class act, while Benedict was perceived.... less so.
 
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