Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. It's phishing season. Members should beware of an email informing them their password is about to expire. You should delete it. This is a scam to steal passwords.
    Dismiss Notice
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,045
    Likes Received:
    3,962
    Trophy Points:
    201
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    • Eligibility
      • Players will be judged only on their performance as hockey players
      • Currently active players are eligible, but will be judged only on what they have already accomplished
      • No, I don’t know what to do with Connor McDavid either
    • Preliminary Discussion Thread
      • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he or she does not intend to take part in the voting round
      • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
      • For instance, did you know Roy McGiffin was in the fruit business during the off-season? Not that I am implying that he should be ranked on the viability of his Californian fruit
      • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for the voting round
      • Please do not rank players outright in the preliminary thread
    • Voting
      • Round 1
        • All participants submit a list of 120 players ranked in order, with all positions included
        • All eras are to be considered
        • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Tim Thomas, not Timothy Thomas Jr.; Justin Williams, not Justinus Septum Williams
        • Lists may be submitted via PM to quoipourquoi
        • Deadline for list submission is October 14th
        • Players will be assigned a point value on each list based on ranking. A 1st-place vote is equal to 120 points. A 2nd-place vote is equal to 119 points. A 120th-place vote is equal to 1 point.
        • An aggregate list will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
        • Participants must submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible to vote in Round 2
      • Round 2
        • The top-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
        • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
        • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
        • Final voting will occur for two days via PM. A 1st-Place vote is equal to 10 points. A 2nd-Place vote is equal to 9 points. A 10th-Place vote is equal to 1 point.
        • The top-5 players will be added to the final list, unless people start booing because of a clear break in voting after the top-4 players, at which point we might agree to hold someone back for the next round because I easily succumb to peer pressure and will go along with whatever you want
        • The exception is in Vote 1 in which only 4 players (#1-4) will be added and in Vote 21 in which only 1 player will be added (#100) because we like to do things arbitrarily for dramatic effect
        • The process repeats until we have a list of 100 players
        • Failure to retain an acceptable level of discussion may lead to an abbreviated list of no fewer than 25 players
    • Quality Assurance
      • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
      • This is not meant to deter participation; we merely want to ensure that voters are considering all eras of hockey's history
      • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project
      • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
      • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
      • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
      • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters
     
  2. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Somehow I was not able to find a spot on my list for Roy McGiffin. I could be convinced though.
     
    quoipourquoi likes this.
  3. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,643
    Likes Received:
    5,048
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Interested in seeing where various participants have Scott Niedermayer and Keith ranked. How many are including any Karlsson? Chara? Doughty?
     
  4. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Chara leads that pack. Only Karlsson makes it from the rest, and currently occupies #120.

    Chara I have up around Mark Howe/Borje Salming.

    Karlsson vs. the rest of the names has a better Norris, Hart and AS record, despite 100+ games less than all of them and none come close offensively.
     
  5. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,643
    Likes Received:
    5,048
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    No Niedermayer?
     
    Sentinel likes this.
  6. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Nope. I personally think he is incredibly overrated. Steady as hell for a long time, but never truly special to me. Was helped by playing with some all-time great defencemen as well.
     
  7. Sentinel Registered User

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,009
    Likes Received:
    2,340
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Home Page:
    If
    If Neidermayer isn't special, neither is the 38.
     
    Canadiens1958 likes this.
  8. ted2019 Know your History

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Messages:
    4,470
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    pittsgrove nj
    He played 3 seasons in the NHA and 5 years total. Just don't see it.
     
  9. ted2019 Know your History

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Messages:
    4,470
    Likes Received:
    1,189
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    pittsgrove nj
    Niedermayer is in
    Keith possible
    Karlsson no
    Chara yes
    Doughty nada
     
  10. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,643
    Likes Received:
    5,048
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    What does Karlsson need to do to make your list?
     
  11. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Just a joke based on the OP's line about his growing fruit in the off-season.
     
  12. steve141 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,118
    Likes Received:
    195
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I liked this summary by Erik Zweig:

    "Whereas many of the tough guys of his time were also talented players, McGiffin seemed only to have a knack for piling up penalty minutes"

    - Erik Zweig, Art Ross: The Hockey Legend Who Built the Bruins
     
    quoipourquoi likes this.
  13. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I don't know what that means.
     
  14. Hockey Outsider Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,490
    Likes Received:
    4,650
    Trophy Points:
    216
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I have Keith and Niedermayer both hovering around 100. Karlsson is near the bottom of my list, and Doughty doesn’t make it.

    I have Chara ranked much higher than these four. He’s not as good as his Norris trophy record suggests (which is top ten all-time) but I have him closer to Pronger than Keith/Niedermayer.
     
  15. Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    19,204
    Likes Received:
    5,398
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Currently no Niedermayer or Chara.

    Keith not in top 100, but on the list.

    Doughty & Karlsson in top 90.
     
    Mike Farkas likes this.
  16. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I love the varity of opinions on modern era defenceman. I would love to hear the rationales from guys who have them different than me, such as Doughty/Karlsson top 90 and no Chara. I have a hard time seeing what Doughty has that Chara doesn't, besides multiple cups. I hope that's not the only thing used to separate them.
     
  17. MXD Original #4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    42,561
    Likes Received:
    6,017
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Dead
    Niedermayer = Probably won't make it
    Doughty = Possibly
    Karlsson = Likely at the tail end of my list
    Chara = Higher
    Keith = Even higher
     
  18. Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    19,204
    Likes Received:
    5,398
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Regarding Chara:

    When you see a player a lot because he played a long time for your team, you get a really different view from everyone else not in that situation. Watching great players usually means you see them as being even better than others do. Chara is an exception for me. He's a turnover machine, even in his best years. In key spots he's been known to stumble. He plays his best when an opponent lights a fire under him. That seems to indicate that he probably isn't completely confident in himself most of the time. He could be better.

    Doughty seems to be the best current defenseman in the game (with Hedman coming on). He's a rock, not having missed a game in the last 4 seasons. Offensively and defensively excellent.

    Karlsson is simply a great offensive defenseman. His bad seasons all seem to be when Ottawa sucks and is out of the picture early. Hard to argue with multiple Norris trophies. Then again, maybe I should have Keith higher, eh?
     
  19. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Your other points are hard to argue since they are hard to quantify, but he being a turnover machine is one I can attempt.

    From 2000-2018, active defencemen:

    PlayerGiveawaysGamesGiveaways per game
    Burns9129610.95
    Chara87012740.68
    Doughty7507700.97
    Karlsson7306271.16
    Keith7289950.73
    Subban6455821.11
    Carlson6056081.00
    Letang5646820.83
    Weber5388670.62
    Hedman4996260.80
    Vlasic4968930.56

    He actually has one of the lowest giveaways per game compared to other top defencemen of this era.
     
  20. Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    19,204
    Likes Received:
    5,398
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I don't think giveaways and turnovers are the same. If they are, someone's cookin' the (stats) books for Chara.
     
  21. Captain Bowie Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    27,063
    Likes Received:
    4,153
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    What else would turnovers be?

    I have no problem keeping an open mind to new information, I hope you are too. Simply dismissing the numbers because they don't jive with your preconceived idea is not exactly what this project should be about.
     
  22. Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    19,204
    Likes Received:
    5,398
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Its not a preconceived idea, its an observation. Perhaps other top dmen give the puck away more than I thought.

    I'm struggling here. My usual response to something like this is "I stand corrected". Maybe I've been confusing Chara with some other 6'9" defenseman on the Bruins.
     
  23. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    11,027
    Likes Received:
    4,316
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    Worth exploring if Boston defensemen are not "credited" with giveaways...Boston, in the post-lockout era, has been notable for not having very skilled defensemen vs. the field and vs. their own success. So one would expect higher turnover rates than most teams.

    From 2005 to just before the start of 08-09, Chara leads the way among all league d-men...possibly a product of many things, including a collapsing system where the top priority is moving unpredictable rebounds to safety and Chara not having the skating or puck skills to hold the puck around his own net...

    Here are the road takeaway and road giveaway leaders since the lockout.
    TakeGive
    Pavel Datsyuk182Jaromir Jagr165
    Martin St. Louis127Zdeno Chara155
    Evgeni Malkin117Alexander Ovechkin144
    John Madden114Joe Thornton138
    Marian Hossa112Marc Savard135
    Sidney Crosby110Hal Gill130
    Scott Gomez109Sidney Crosby126
    Derek Roy106Jason Spezza125
    Duncan Keith106Jay Bouwmeester125
    Mikko Koivu105Alex Kovalev124
     
    Canadiens1958 and Killion like this.
  24. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    11,027
    Likes Received:
    4,316
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    More examples of counting bias/non-standard definition...

    Giveaways by team defensemen in 2009 (division winners):
    Boston 202 (Chara, Wideman, Ference, Ward)
    New Jersey 203 (Martin, Oduya, Havelid, Salvador)
    Detroit 237 (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart)
    San Jose 283 (Boyle, Vlasic, Blake, Ehrhoff)
    Vancouver 307 (Bieksa, Mitchell, Ohlund, Edler)
    Washington 360 (Green, Poti, Schultz, Alzner/Morrisonn)
     
  25. Johnny Engine Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,478
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    The overall point about the lack of standardization of the NHL's RTS numbers is correct, but "unskilled defensemen give the puck away" is never what those numbers end up showing. The leaders in giveaways every single year are guys like Burns, Karlsson, Subban, and often centres like Tavares and Thornton. It's a strike against the utility of that particular statistic, yes, but the low numbers in Boston are as much a function of the teams' conservatism as the arena bias.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Presented in Association with the Society for International Hockey Research
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"