Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Citizens on Patrol)

[VanIslander]

I consider a defenseman's primary responsibility to be defensive, a forward's is offensive, ESPECIALLY when reducing the plethora of great players down to a limited list. (Congrats Esposito & Quackenbush.)

Sorry Housley and Carbonneau.

Of course, dominance can be reflected by extremely talented secondary roles writ large. Hence, Nighbor and Coffey are simply... exceptional.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I consider a defenseman's primary responsibility to be defensive, a forward's is offensive, ESPECIALLY when reducing the plethora of great players down to a limited list. (Congrats Esposito & Quackenbush.)

Sorry Housley and Carbonneau.

Of course, dominance can be reflected by extremely talented secondary roles writ large. Hence, Nighbor and Coffey are simply... exceptional.

You are 100 per cent correct... for "normal" players. To make the top 120, you gotta bring more to the table than than your second-line teammate or your responsible stay-at-home defenseman. That's not to say that Rod Langway isn't on my list (he most certainly is), but there are several defenseman ahead of him... some who never won the Norris Trophy.

 

[MXD]

53 years ago, Two of the Ten best hockey players of all time were born.

 

[DannyGallivan]

53 years ago, Two of the Ten best hockey players of all time were born.

Mario and... well, some may have Roy in their top 10.

 

[Captain Bowie]

You are 100 per cent correct... for "normal" players. To make the top 120, you gotta bring more to the table than than your second-line teammate or your responsible stay-at-home defenseman. That's not to say that Rod Langway isn't on my list (he most certainly is), but there are several defenseman ahead of him... some who never won the Norris Trophy.

I agree. I just don't necessarily agree you have to bring something different. If you bring the same element, but do it in an all-time great manner, you certainly have a spot on my list.

 

[Sentinel]

List submitted.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Worters was a Hart trophy winner (and a runner-up another year) in the 1920's.

It depends how many goalies are on your list. Hainsworth and Lehman might be relevant.

(I wonder if Babe Dye or Lionel Conacher or Frank McGee were at least longlisted for consideration, given some names on your list.)

His name has been discussed before, and as I recall Frank McGee will be on more than a couple of lists. I don't know if I can say the same for Babe Dye or possibly the third best Conacher.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Did anyone include Goulet, Hossa, Recchi, Robitaille or Shanahan?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Did anyone include Goulet, Hossa, Recchi, Robitaille or Shanahan?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Did anyone include Goulet, Hossa, Recchi, Robitaille or Shanahan?

Robitaille made my top 120 (at 108). Goulet and Shanahan were both on earlier drafts but were cut. Hossa and Recchi never got a sniff.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I did have Robitaille temporarily on my list early on, but was an easy cut upon further review.

 

[Sentinel]

Did anyone include Goulet, Hossa, Recchi, Robitaille or Shanahan?

101. Luc Robitaille (LW)
109. Mark Recchi (LW)

 

[Captain Bowie]

101. Luc Robitaille (LW)
109. Mark Recchi (LW)

Don't take this the wrong way, but your is the list I am most interested to see, considering how different it seems it will be from my own. I have a hard time imagining how many players I would have to name to get to Mark Recchi. It might be close to 200, or more.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If Recchi is in...Kariya is over him, right? Or no?

 

[DannyGallivan]

If Recchi is in...Kariya is over him, right? Or no?

Kariya was tragedy if you're in to personal legacies. He played on horrible teams early in his career, yet was clearly the "real" Most Valuable Player. Then injuries robbed him of very probable Maurice Richard Trophies, an Art Ross, a Hart and a Gold Medal.

...and a spot among my top 120.

 

[VanIslander]

Crosby was only twice top 5 in goals, six times top 5 in assists.

It was due to injuries.

Tragically, that affects where he stands on your list, right?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Crosby was only twice top 5 in goals, six times top 5 in assists.

It was due to injuries.

Tragically, that affects where he stands on your list, right?

Are you comparing Kariya to Crosby? Kinda taking things out of context if you are.

Orr, Bossy and especially Crosby already made massive impacts in the game before injuries too their toll. Kariya was robbed of his best statistical years.

... and if Crosby had never been injured, he may very well have had another Art Ross and Hart (or two), and he would have likely been higher on all of our lists.

But I was talking about Kariya. By the tone of your post, I have to ask where you put Paul Kariya on your list?

 

[Captain Bowie]

I went through 3 major versions of my list. The following is the names that did not move at all throughout all 3 versions.

The top 4
5. Beliveau
10. Patrick Roy
12. Dominik Hasek
58. Charlie Conacher
60. Frank Boucher
62. Frank Brimesek
63. Sprague Cleghorn
65. Chris Pronger

I did a lot of shuffling between in the top half of the list, and a lot more in the bottom half. But somehow the names that landed right at the halfway points didn't change much at all.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Pronger is one you always find yourself willing to put higher than the paper sheets necessarily point to, I find...Be interesting when we're twenty years removed from his career.

 

[VanIslander]

Pronger is one you always find yourself willing to put higher than the paper sheets necessarily point to, I find...Be interesting when we're twenty years removed from his career.

If the paper sheets are stats and trophies, yeah.

But one's eye test and memories of a player's dominance are equivalent to the paper sheets of newspaper accounts and history books citing the comments, analysis and opinions of a player's contemporaries.

Judge a guy like Morenz or Nighbor on more than stats and trophies. There is a lot of ink on them. Read alltime draft bios.on the linked master bio thread on the ATD subboard. Google 'books' references to players. Surf the net or go to the library if anyone does that anymore.

One hopes the greatness of Pronger won't be lost in The Great Internet Crash of 2085.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Pronger is one you always find yourself willing to put higher than the paper sheets necessarily point to, I find...Be interesting when we're twenty years removed from his career.

His Hart win in the modern era are very impressive to me. Defencemen simply don't win Hart trophies any more. And I don't see any evidence that his play was significantly worse in the years surrounding his win.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I went through 3 major versions of my list. The following is the names that did not move at all throughout all 3 versions.

The top 4
5. Beliveau
10. Patrick Roy
12. Dominik Hasek
58. Charlie Conacher
60. Frank Boucher
62. Frank Brimesek
63. Sprague Cleghorn
65. Chris Pronger

I did a lot of shuffling between in the top half of the list, and a lot more in the bottom half. But somehow the names that landed right at the halfway points didn't change much at all.

Some similarities, especial with Conacher.

We're close in a few places according to those few players you mentioned. Obviously Beliveau is in my top 10 so no need to go into detail there. I have Hasek one ahead of Roy (15 and 16) I have Conacher at 58 as well, I have Pronger at 67 and Cleghorn at 68.

 

[DannyGallivan]

His Hart win in the modern era are very impressive to me. Defencemen simply don't win Hart trophies any more. And I don't see any evidence that his play was significantly worse in the years surrounding his win.

He was also a shoe-in for the Conn Smythe had Edmonton beaten Carolina in game 7.

 

[Nick Hansen]

If the paper sheets are stats and trophies, yeah.

But one's eye test and memories of a player's dominance are equivalent to the paper sheets of newspaper accounts and history books citing the comments, analysis and opinions of a player's contemporaries.

Judge a guy like Morenz or Nighbor on more than stats and trophies. There is a lot of ink on them. Read alltime draft bios.on the linked master bio thread on the ATD subboard. Google 'books' references to players. Surf the net or go to the library if anyone does that anymore.

One hopes the greatness of Pronger won't be lost in The Great Internet Crash of 2085.

His Hart win in the modern era are very impressive to me. Defencemen simply don't win Hart trophies any more. And I don't see any evidence that his play was significantly worse in the years surrounding his win.

Not saying it is wrong, it'll just be interesting what time and some perspective does on Pronger's number.

 

[Nick Hansen]

He was also a shoe-in for the Conn Smythe had Edmonton beaten Carolina in game 7.

Had they met a powerhouse rather than another cindarella team in the finals, I think Pronger could very well have won any way.