Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Citizens on Patrol)

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Oct 4, 2018.

?

Where is your list?

Poll closed Oct 14, 2018.
  1. I already gave it to you.

    41.4%
  2. It will be ready by October 14th.

    44.8%
  3. I do not anticipate sending one.

    6.9%
  4. My dog ate it.

    6.9%
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  1. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    • Eligibility
      • Players will be judged only on their performance as hockey players
      • Currently active players are eligible, but will be judged only on what they have already accomplished
      • No, I don’t know what to do with Connor McDavid either
    • Preliminary Discussion Thread
      • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he or she does not intend to take part in the voting round
      • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
      • For instance, did you know Roy McGiffin was in the fruit business during the off-season? Not that I am implying that he should be ranked on the viability of his Californian fruit
      • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for the voting round
      • Please do not rank players outright in the preliminary thread
    • Voting
      • Round 1
        • All participants submit a list of 120 players ranked in order, with all positions included
        • All eras are to be considered
        • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Tim Thomas, not Timothy Thomas Jr.; Justin Williams, not Justinus Septum Williams
        • Lists may be submitted via PM to quoipourquoi
        • Deadline for list submission is October 14th
        • Players will be assigned a point value on each list based on ranking. A 1st-place vote is equal to 120 points. A 2nd-place vote is equal to 119 points. A 120th-place vote is equal to 1 point.
        • An aggregate list will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
        • Participants must submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible to vote in Round 2
      • Round 2
        • The top-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
        • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
        • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
        • Final voting will occur for two days via PM. A 1st-Place vote is equal to 10 points. A 2nd-Place vote is equal to 9 points. A 10th-Place vote is equal to 1 point.
        • The top-5 players will be added to the final list, unless people start booing because of a clear break in voting after the top-4 players, at which point we might agree to hold someone back for the next round because I easily succumb to peer pressure and will go along with whatever you want
        • The exception is in Vote 1 in which only 4 players (#1-4) will be added and in Vote 21 in which only 1 player will be added (#100) because we like to do things arbitrarily for dramatic effect
        • The process repeats until we have a list of 100 players
        • Failure to retain an acceptable level of discussion may lead to an abbreviated list of no fewer than 25 players
    • Quality Assurance
      • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
      • This is not meant to deter participation; we merely want to ensure that voters are considering all eras of hockey's history
      • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project
      • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
      • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
      • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
      • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters
     
  2. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Voted!

    I know how I live my life...if the deadline were sooner, I'd be done by now...but it's not, so it isn't...

    Seeya at 11:59 pm ET...suckers...
     
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  3. Nick Hansen

    Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Maybe it's time to scale down on discussing the Hull's and Esposito's of the world, and start looking at the bottom 40 (80-120).

    Did anyone find a spot for Kariya?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  4. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Yes, I have the full set from “Pond of Dreams”. Just a little beyond 100, near contemporaries Curtis Joseph and Pavel Bure.
     
  5. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    I expected this with your 28 goalies. If I had 28 goalies, my list MIGHT have included Joseph.
    But I'm still somewhat in shock.
     
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  6. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Hey, if you wait until the last minute to do something, it only takes a minute to do.
     
  7. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    450+ win, 16-year starters that make three best-on-best teams in an era with high-end talent don’t fall off the turnip truck everyday.
     
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  8. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    It's not entirely apples-to-apples (my list is NHL only) but I have Joseph 22nd (between Parent and Worsley).
     
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  9. ted1971

    ted1971 History Of Hockey

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    Sent my list in to quoipourquoi.
     
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  10. ted1971

    ted1971 History Of Hockey

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    Kariya didn't make my list. He would've been somewhere around 125-130 if it was expanded.
     
  11. DannyGallivan

    DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Agreed.
     
  12. Art of Sedinery

    Art of Sedinery Registered User

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    Is it requested that the lists be submitted in advance of October 14? Or are they not even being looked at until that date regardless of submission date?

    I am satisfied enough with my current list, but don't see the point of submitting now just in case something/someone comes up I had not considered and would like to change.

    If it is preferred to be submitted ahead of time than I have no issue submitting my current list now.
     
  13. ted1971

    ted1971 History Of Hockey

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    My Breakdown.
    Goalies: 17
    Centers: 38
    Wingers: 30
    Defensemen: 35
     
  14. Dr John Carlson

    Dr John Carlson Light is all over us

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    19 Goalies
    33 Centres
    36 Defensemen
    32 Wingers
     
  15. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    More defensemen than centers?

    The best young hockey players tend to gravitate to center. Draftees most often are centers who have to convert to wing to get NHL ice time behind great centers. Defensemen usually don't get as much attention for trophies like the Hart and Conn Smythe (and Lady Byng, for what that's worth). Dmen also don't score as much, so having a lot of dmen in the top 100 requires a lot of contextual info and intangibles. That should make discussions more important and, equally, examinations need to be more thorough than an FBI investigation.
     
  16. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    The best players play defense on any team I've ever coached. Always build your teams defense heavy. Best skater, best visionary, smartest player, best passer - he plays defense.

    Junior centers don't convert to winger at the pro level for ice time, they convert because they aren't good enough to be centers at the pro level. So they're castoff to the margins with lower responsibility, less skating, less area to cover at wing...
     
  17. DannyGallivan

    DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Phil Esposito said that he learned at a young age that "they" pay goal scorers the best, so he focused on offense.
     
  18. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Since the start of multiple unit hockey, x lines + y pairings, top defencemen have always enjoyed a minimum of 5 minutes extra TOI per game.

    That is easy to document and prove.

    More forward positions 3 versus 2, and the replaceable nature of forwards makes them less valuable on the ice.
     
  19. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Easier to count, that's for true...
     
  20. Art of Sedinery

    Art of Sedinery Registered User

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    By that logic wouldn't goalies dominate this list?
     
  21. Art of Sedinery

    Art of Sedinery Registered User

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    My Breakdown currently:

    F - 72
    D - 31
    G - 17

    I definitely feel light on defencemen.
     
  22. The Macho Man

    The Macho Man Lusty Bodychecker

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    Explain Jonathan Toews then, please. :P
     
  23. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Three factors to consider.

    Injuries. Maurice Richard was a center coming up but leg injuries caused a move to wing. Likewise Dickie Moore, a number of others.

    Speed. Bobby Hull started as a center,
    but fast linemates who could skate with him were not available. Likewise Frank Mahovlich, some others.

    Team rosters. Loading up on centers beyond the required number allows roster flexibility. Valuable situationally and in case of in game injuries.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
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  24. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Goalies do dominate since proportionately to roster size a list would feature between 6 and 12 goalies.

    Yet posters are listing over 20.
     
  25. Art of Sedinery

    Art of Sedinery Registered User

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    16% of the list isn't what I would call dominating.

    I took your post to mean there should be as many or more defencemen as forwards, since a top defencemen will play more than a top forward (and every player worth considering will have been considered "top" at their position).
     
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