Tomas Tatar

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Tatar's problem is that he is physically not where he needs to be to play a full NHL season as anything other than a minimal minutes guy, he's soft and also verges on being a defensive liability. I don't see the speed or aggressiveness you'd like on the lower lines.

The problem is that people see a few good moves in a game and think "star" just because there's so little else to be excited about with this team. The fact that playing limited minutes against the other teams' weaker lines is absolutely not comparable to being a top minutes guy taking on the other teams' best lines is lost so often in these discussions it's not even funny.

It reminds me of when Hudler was meant to be a superstar, the membership of that club dwindled slowly but steadily.

Tatar soft? Seriously?

 

[Johnz96*]

Tatar's problem is that he is physically not where he needs to be to play a full NHL season as anything other than a minimal minutes guy, he's soft and also verges on being a defensive liability. I don't see the speed or aggressiveness you'd like on the lower lines.

The problem is that people see a few good moves in a game and think "star" just because there's so little else to be excited about with this team. The fact that playing limited minutes against the other teams' weaker lines is absolutely not comparable to being a top minutes guy taking on the other teams' best lines is lost so often in these discussions it's not even funny.

It reminds me of when Hudler was meant to be a superstar, the membership of that club dwindled slowly but steadily.

Soft???
Do you even watch the Wings?
No one is saying that Tatar is a superstar but he is a very good top 6 NHL forward and much better than other Wings' forwards who have got more ice-time than him this year.
That Hudler club dwindled slowly because Babcock wasn't utilizing him properly, turns out he actually is a super star.
What he is doing with the Flames is nothing short of amazing, there are only a few players that could be as successful with that team that is going through a botched youth movement and all of their top 11 scorers (other than Hudler) have missed time with injuries this year)

 

[SoupNazi]

Soft???
Do you even watch the Wings?
No one is saying that Tatar is a superstar but he is a very good top 6 NHL forward and much better than other Wings' forwards who have got more ice-time than him this year.
That Hudler club dwindled slowly because Babcock wasn't utilizing him properly, turns out he actually is a super star.
What he is doing with the Flames is nothing short of amazing, there are only a few players that could be as successful with that team that is going through a botched youth movement and all of their top 11 scorers (other than Hudler) have missed time with injuries this year)

If Hudler is a superstar, what does that make players like Crosby, Ovechkin and Datsyuk, who legitimately ARE superstars?

 

[Retire91]

If Hudler is a superstar, what does that make players like Crosby, Ovechkin and Datsyuk, who legitimately ARE superstars?

Super duper stars

 

[detredWINgs]

Tatar's problem is that he is physically not where he needs to be to play a full NHL season as anything other than a minimal minutes guy, he's soft and also verges on being a defensive liability. I don't see the speed or aggressiveness you'd like on the lower lines.

The problem is that people see a few good moves in a game and think "star" just because there's so little else to be excited about with this team. The fact that playing limited minutes against the other teams' weaker lines is absolutely not comparable to being a top minutes guy taking on the other teams' best lines is lost so often in these discussions it's not even funny.

It reminds me of when Hudler was meant to be a superstar, the membership of that club dwindled slowly but steadily.

What? The kid is plenty fast and ridiculously tenacious.

And he can only manage minimal minutes? Is that why he's always the most energetic guy on the ice?

I honestly don't know what game you're watching. The only thing you're right about is that Tatar can be a defensive liability. Oh noes. Like a rookie being a defensive liability isn't something that happens 9/10 times.

 

[Johnz96*]

If Hudler is a superstar, what does that make players like Crosby, Ovechkin and Datsyuk, who legitimately ARE superstars?

IGiess I was using the term loosely.
I was replying to a post implying that a lot of Wings fans thought Hudler would be a superstar. I don't think anyone thought he would be a legitimate superstar like Crosby, Ovechkin and Datsyuk but he has sure turned out to be a much better player than Babcock thought he was.

 

[Johnz96*]

What? The kid is plenty fast and ridiculously tenacious.

And he can only manage minimal minutes? Is that why he's always the most energetic guy on the ice?

I honestly don't know what game you're watching. The only thing you're right about is that Tatar can be a defensive liability. Oh noes. Like a rookie being a defensive liability isn't something that happens 9/10 times.

He has been less of a liability than a lot of the vets that have recieved more ice-time than him this year.
He actually has the 3rd best giveaway to takeaway ratio on the team behind only Pav and Goose. He is pretty good positionally and has speed to catch up when he is not.

5th in hits among forwards, one behind Cleary in 7 less games.
3rd in takeaways by forwards, one behind Zetterberg in far fewer minutes.

 

[Heaton]

IGiess I was using the term loosely.
I was replying to a post implying that a lot of Wings fans thought Hudler would be a superstar. I don't think anyone thought he would be a legitimate superstar like Crosby, Ovechkin and Datsyuk but he has sure turned out to be a much better player than Babcock thought he was.

Babcock thought he was going to be a 70pt player, so I don't know what you mean.

 

[Vladdy84]

He has been less of a liability than a lot of the vets that have recieved more ice-time than him this year.
He actually has the 3rd best giveaway to takeaway ratio on the team behind only Pav and Goose. He is pretty good positionally and has speed to catch up when he is not.

5th in hits among forwards, one behind Cleary in 7 less games.
3rd in takeaways by forwards, one behind Zetterberg in far fewer minutes.

Clears doesn't really hit. He just stops skating and extends his arms and allows momentum to carry himself into an opponent. Tatar's thrown some of the bigger hits this year by catching a player off guard by throwing his should right into 'em and knocking em down.

 

[Henkka]

It has nothing to do what Babcock thought about Hudler.

Huds got a 1st line position for free from other organization. At Red Wings, he would still be a temporary 1st liner only in massive injury situations. Othervise, he would be at lower lines and never see same scoring like right now. We have Datsyuk and Zetterberg playing at his position those best scoring minutes. Hudler would score exactly same in here, if Datsyuk and Zetterberg would not exist. But because they exist, this is just worthless discussion.

How hard is this to understand?

Also, if Hudler would still be in here, we would have a debate how Nyquist is treated unfairly etc etc. I'm almost 100% sure, we would have some Hudler hate in here, because Nyquist would be at bottom6...

We know how this board acts.

 

[probertrules24]

Babcock thought he was going to be a 70pt player, so I don't know what you mean.

Don't get me wrong I like Babcock but he says things like this all the time and then doesn't put a player in position to achieve that. Certain players are immediately moved down the line up or sat after making a mistake.

It's starting to not look like a coincidence that skilled players that would end up in Babcock's dog house are finding success out side of Detroit. Many have gone on to say that he's a tough coach to play for.

I'm worried a little for Tatar going forward. He's playing some of his best hockey and if the Wings were to start getting some of their guys back I could see his ice time take a dip. With the current line-up he should be top three in ice time for forwards every night.

I think one of Babcock's faults is that players should always conform to the system not the system conform to the players. I can understand a coach wanting a lot from his players but the standard doesn't seem to be parallel across the team.

By no means would I ever suggest that I know more then he does but it makes you wonder why these guys move on and start lighting it up. When was the last guy we brought in that was struggling and has found a place in the top 6. Most guys, the Cleary's, Miller's or others were used in strong defensive roles. I guess what I'm trying to say it's the defensive minded guys that it seems Babcock is able to mold.

 

[joe89]

I think it's a bigger chance Nyquist gets put in the doghouse than Tatar atm. Tatar has shown he's capable of being productive regardless of linemates. He also plays like he's 6'2", even if he'll never be as punishing as a big guy. 0.5 ppg with 3rd line minutes(on a team that is offensively challenged no less) is extremely impressive, even Babcock has to see that. He's reduced his turnovers a lot from the early goings aswell.

 

[probertrules24]

I think it's a bigger chance Nyquist gets put in the doghouse than Tatar atm. Tatar has shown he's capable of being productive regardless of linemates. He also plays like he's 6'2", even if he'll never be as punishing as a big guy. 0.5 ppg with 3rd line minutes(on a team that is offensively challenged no less) is extremely impressive, even Babcock has to see that. He's reduced his turnovers a lot from the early goings aswell.

I actually wouldn't have a problem switching the two guys right now. Tatar move up and Nyquist down to the second line. With such a depleted roster I would love to see Nyquist - Sheahan - Tatar as our second line. Only problem is who moves up to play with Zetterberg. We need Datsyuk, Alfy and Franzen back badly.

 

[Frk It]

I think it's a bigger chance Nyquist gets put in the doghouse than Tatar atm. Tatar has shown he's capable of being productive regardless of linemates. He also plays like he's 6'2", even if he'll never be as punishing as a big guy. 0.5 ppg with 3rd line minutes(on a team that is offensively challenged no less) is extremely impressive, even Babcock has to see that. He's reduced his turnovers a lot from the early goings aswell.

If we are going to distribute minutes based on merit then Tatar should be getting Nyquist's minutes and opportunities. It's clear we don't do that though. And maybe Babcock doesn't want to further Gus's confidence. He is doing good things still, just not translating to the score sheet. But Tatar has been a way better finisher lately so I think he could pot some goals with Z.

 

[InjuredChoker]

henkka made the point.

hudler had more points per 5on5 minutes his last year with wings than he has this year in calgary. or last year.

flip's points are on line with too, except that monster 11-12 year which is by far his best.

hudler is used in more offensive role.

both produce more on power play and get more time there. that's where the difference comes.

wings #1 pp unit already has two LH playmakers in zett and dats.

wings pp actually produced more when hudler was on the ice in 11-12 than what is happening in calgary this year with huds and last year too.

 

[Frk It]

henkka made the point.

hudler had more points per ES minutes his last year with wings than he has this year in calgary. or last year.

flip's points are on line with too, except that monster 11-12 year which is by far his best.

hudler is used in more offensive role.

both produce more on power play and get more time there. that's where the difference comes.

wings #1 pp unit already has two LH playmakers in zett and dats.

wings pp actually produced more when hudler was on the ice in 11-12 than what is happening in calgary this year with huds and last year too.

D and Z typically play on the same PP unit.

We really miss having a guy like Filppula on a 2nd PP unit. One of the things we struggle with most is zone entry, and that's one of Filppulas biggest strengths. He does it very well at ES, and is pretty much automatic with a man advantage at gaining the zone.

 

[Winger98]

If we are going to distribute minutes based on merit then Tatar should be getting Nyquist's minutes and opportunities. It's clear we don't do that though. And maybe Babcock doesn't want to further Gus's confidence. He is doing good things still, just not translating to the score sheet. But Tatar has been a way better finisher lately so I think he could pot some goals with Z.

I think it's also hard to move Tatar off a line when he's generating offense and we so desperately need offense. Sucks, but it's a catch-22 for him. If he produces, we don't really want to change it. If he isn't producing, you wonder if he'll get demoted. I think we might see Abdelkader moved to Nyquist's spot first.

 

[Vladdy84]

I've liked the Bert-Sheahan-Tats line so far. But I'm all for making Nyquist-Sheahan-Tatar a permanent line for the rest of the season. Have Joker be the 4th line center.

 

[Frk It]

I think it's also hard to move Tatar off a line when he's generating offense and we so desperately need offense. Sucks, but it's a catch-22 for him. If he produces, we don't really want to change it. If he isn't producing, you wonder if he'll get demoted. I think we might see Abdelkader moved to Nyquist's spot first.

I don't like that idea either though. Abdelkader a been on primarily the 3rd line all year and looked great. That should be his role with this team, nothing more.

We have a big enough sample size now to know he can't play in the top 6. Bertuzzi at 40 put up better numbers with D and Z early this year than Abby did with D and Z. That tells us everything we need.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Soft???
Do you even watch the Wings?
No one is saying that Tatar is a superstar but he is a very good top 6 NHL forward and much better than other Wings' forwards who have got more ice-time than him this year.
That Hudler club dwindled slowly because Babcock wasn't utilizing him properly, turns out he actually is a super star.
What he is doing with the Flames is nothing short of amazing, there are only a few players that could be as successful with that team that is going through a botched youth movement and all of their top 11 scorers (other than Hudler) have missed time with injuries this year)

Hudler isn't even a star, let alone a super star.

 

[Winger98]

I don't like that idea either though. Abdelkader a been on primarily the 3rd line all year and looked great. That should be his role with this team, nothing more.

We have a big enough sample size now to know he can't play in the top 6. Bertuzzi at 40 put up better numbers with D and Z early this year than Abby did with D and Z. That tells us everything we need.

I'm not a fan of it, either, but with so many injuries I'm not how many options are available that we would like (outside of the highly improbable calling up Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc.). Maybe we move Bert up. Maybe...I don't know. I don't want Cleary there. I'm not a fan of Miller or Eaves on the first line. I'd be happy for any of the injured guys to get healthy at this point.

 

[nickyno72]

Sauce is an interesting case. The past month he's shown pure brilliance. The month before he was a turnover machine with flashy hands. I don't see him as a two way player of great caliber, but he's showing a knack for the net I wasn't expecting. His past two games he's shown more heart than most young 20-something year olds have. His play may get him injured, or prone to being spotlighted and shutdown. But when he's on a line with other playmakers he could be deadly for the long term.

 

[InjuredChoker]

We really miss having a guy like Filppula on a 2nd PP unit. One of the things we struggle with most is zone entry, and that's one of Filppulas biggest strengths. He does it very well at ES, and is pretty much automatic with a man advantage at gaining the zone.

ironically, i believe part of the big reasons wings brought in weiss was that he's historically been pretty good pp player and better than flip.

but yeah, puck carrying ability is one thing that wings very much miss in flip. weiss couldn't do that at all. among other things, lol.

 

[19 for president]

I think Nyquist is going through the same adjustment period that Tatar did 10-15 games ago. These guys come up and play great for the first 2 weeks or so and then they hit a rough patch where the grind and speed of the NHL takes a bit of a toll on them. Then after a month or so of grinding it out their game picks up again. Tatar is at that stage now. He wen through a similar thing last year, but instead of being kept up until he hit his stride again, he was sent back down. In contrast Nyquist stayed up and hit his stride in the playoffs.

I think Tatar and Nyquist are both top 6 players in the near future, but I don't think either is able to anchor a top 6 line right now. Tatar should get more PP time, but I think he is very well suited to the third line roll he currently has. He can create offense on his own, and that gives us a 3rd line with a potential to score. In contrast Nyquist can create offense too but I don't think he is ready to be the main offensive threat on an NHL line. He is however much better defensively, which makes him a better supporting cast member on a top line. Tats has improved his turnover ratio but I think if you put him against the 1st/2nd liners of the league those turnovers will be a lot more costly. Plus I think Tatar needs to have the puck to be at his best offensively, much like Franzen. So I don't think he'll ever be a good fit for Dats, despite being a scorer. Now with that said... with our current disaster of a lineup both should be in the top 6. When everyone is healthy, however I'm perfectly fine with Tats being on the 3rd line.

 

[Vladdy84]

Tatar and Nyquist are both top 6 caliber players RIGHT NOW. Especially on this team.