If the player in question is a stud Dman or a 1st. line player they have a little more leverage than Rieder. I don't think many teams are lining up to trade for him. He is a immature winger who is unproven and looks to be a problem player to sign. Rieder was progressing well with the Coyotes, why in hell is he letting his agent put this in jeopardy. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
Confirmed with Link: Tobias Rieder Re-signed (2 Years - 2.225AAV)
- Thread starter Grimes
- Start date
If the player in question is a stud Dman or a 1st. line player they have a little more leverage than Rieder. I don't think many teams are lining up to trade for him. He is a immature winger who is unproven and looks to be a problem player to sign. Rieder was progressing well with the Coyotes, why in hell is he letting his agent put this in jeopardy. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
Not really any big names on that list. The way it looks, the agent is trying to make a name for himself and the firm.
_Del_
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- Jul 4, 2003
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I'm not trying to twist your tail. I just thought it was funny you went from:
To:
in a day.
I think saying he's "clearly" only worth $X, and his value is "obviously" $Y, seems a bit shallow to me when the numbers are relatively close in terms of NHL salaires.
To me, it would've been worth it to keep the contributing asset at a slight "overpay" according to your ppg chart than breed ill will and burn an asset with a response of "If you're not happy with 4.4M over two yrs, maybe you should look at 875k for one year".
Even if you're convinced you don't want him at 2.5x2, there's nothing stopping you from dealing him once signed. Now we're not going to get even "value" in a trade, where we might have at 2.5M.
I think they tried to lock him up cheap longterm and Rieder wanted a bridge. Standing firm on the 2.2M was probably meant to make the bridge look more attractive. Parties frequently offer something in negotiations that you know the other party isn't going to like just to push them towards something else you want. It's like pricing the medium drink only 10 cents less than a large to drive sales of large drinks instead of mediums. Noone is going to buy the medium, but that's okay, you wanted to drive sales of large anyway.
In this case, egos are involved on both sides. I'm not putting all the blame on Chayka, and I hate pretty much everything I've heard from this agent. But this was a foolish place to draw a line in the sand, and we're a worse club because of it.
So, yes, players like Domi and Strome, et al, might have gone, "oh, they will pay me, too", but it's just as easy to think they look at it like, " 2.5 seems fair to me. They'd rather let the guy go than give him a decent raise? How much do they value us, and are they only concerned with the bottom line"
It such a paltry difference in perceived values, I think it's dumb to say he's clearly worth x, y, or z. It's beyond dumb for either of them to have taken a "take it or leave it" approach about this. I'm usually proowner, but this was a mistep. Noone wants out over a couple hundred k. This is about failing to negotiate in good faith and one or both parties taking it personally. The agent was clearly a headache as well what with the Kadri comp, etc. But 2.5x2 seems pretty reasonable as bridge deals go.
Also, I think you own Sniper a beer
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
1) Sniper gets a beer
2) My absolutes were meant to be provacative enough to elicit information
2A) Mission accomplished.
3) You're not contributing on this
3A) Normally I value your input, but bring something with this criticism please
4) I gave all the context I needed to
4A) Cherry pick if it makes you feel better
4B) That **** is very lazy
4C) You just shouldn't. It's a bad look.
5) You get a beer too
5A) Lets figure out a game situation (at this point I'd prefer Tucson) and I'm buying some beers
Distant 6) I'm tired of the argument, but I completley disagree with you on this one thing. One out of like 47 things in the last year or five. Haha.
2) My absolutes were meant to be provacative enough to elicit information
2A) Mission accomplished.
3) You're not contributing on this
3A) Normally I value your input, but bring something with this criticism please
4) I gave all the context I needed to
4A) Cherry pick if it makes you feel better
4B) That **** is very lazy
4C) You just shouldn't. It's a bad look.
5) You get a beer too
5A) Lets figure out a game situation (at this point I'd prefer Tucson) and I'm buying some beers
Distant 6) I'm tired of the argument, but I completley disagree with you on this one thing. One out of like 47 things in the last year or five. Haha.
I don't like how at the slight sign of things not going his way, Reider wants out. It's happened twice now.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Which of those thirteen comps does Rieder deserve more than? There are a few for sure. I just wonder where the line is drawn for most here.
I'm not entirely sure I believe the agent's numbers, but I think the 2.5 AAV number is justifiable. But it has fair counter arguments mostly relating to Rieder's second half production and shorter track record.
So that would put him right here:
Tomas Hertl |$3.00
Boone Jenner | $2.90
J.T. Miller | $2.75
Kevin Hayes | $2.60
Ryan Strome | $2.50
Tobias Rieder |
Marcus Foligno| $2.25
I'm getting more sympathetic to the hold the line argument from a pure negotiating/precedent setting standpoint by the hour though. But that doesn't have much to do with value.
Pay him the most if you want, I think he's a valuable player and no two year deal is going to kill the Coyotes. This is more about the philosophical struggle between Rieder and Chayka now than it as anything else. If it was as simple as two camps coming off their line a few hundred grand, they'd have had a deal a long time ago.
Rieder's initial ask was probably so insulting that they've decided to play the situation straight and not give in. Send a message. I can't argue with that. Not with all the other young players watching. They need to know that a firm offer from Chayka is pretty damn firm. They also need to know that having your agent **** on the team in public won't go well for you.
Rieder should rot. Let him go play in the KHL until his rights run out. It doesn't matter anymore. He may as well be dead and gone to the organization already. He made his choice.
For this I think it's worth looking at the timeline.
A. Quiet out of both sides.
B. Morgan floats the agent supposedly saying Kadri is a comparable which came from an unknown source.
C. KHL Threat dropped.
D. Rieder's side says it's going to be addressed after the WC but he has standing offers.
E. Morgan posts from another "source" that the Kadri comp was never a thing.
F. Coyotes camp says they were looking at a longer term deal.
G. Agent through Morgan says "Hey guys we want 2.5m what's the big deal". Then says a trade could be the best solution.
The way this all went down I don't think Rieder's camp has actually directly offered to take 2.5, this is probably the first the Coyotes heard of it
. Just trying to make themselves look reasonable in public.
_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
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Is he worth substantially less than JT Miller or KHayes? I think you could make a case based on usage that he's as established as either.
If you're talking about longer term, you're talking about more money. On a 2yr deal, I wouldn't think 2.75 was way out line. I don't know that 2.75 is a deal I'd happily sign, but it wouldn't make me say 2.2M/2 or 875k/1 in response either.
(We used to disagree all the time, but it was a long, long time ago haha)
This board, and I'm not excluding myself, has more mood swings than a maternity ward. "We should keep Vermette as a veteran center -- we're better off without him! Net negative!" "They're close, they should bridge the gap -- let him rot! Easily replaceable!"
Every fan base turns on guys after they leave. We're not unusual.
_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
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The way this all went down I don't think Rieder's camp has actually directly offered to take 2.5, this is probably the first the Coyotes heard of it
The agents an ass clown, but if you hit me with "you're asking for 110k over two yrs.. We're firm at 98k. If you don't like it, you could always do 34,500 for one year", I'd probably look at other options, too.
Murf
Registered User
Even if the Coyotes were willing to trade him, I don't think it is realistic. Are other teams really going to show up to overpay a guy that is a contract negotiation problem? You would have to find a team that has him valued at his asking price or higher, which seems unlikely.
That said, this is small potatoes in the overall scheme of things. It's up to Chayka to decide if the salary savings is worth the distraction. As of now, it seems pretty clear that he has decided it is worth it.
That said, this is small potatoes in the overall scheme of things. It's up to Chayka to decide if the salary savings is worth the distraction. As of now, it seems pretty clear that he has decided it is worth it.
True, and what would we get for him anyway? He is a third line winger with second line upside, a dime a dozen in the NHL. We won't get much for him and how much does he really hurt us if he sits, not much. Trouba is a different story, clearly does not want to play for the Jets and is a second line D with first pairing upside. The Jets will get a good return for Trouba, and if he sits, he hurts the Jets a lot.
Reider will sign shortly
and Trouba will be traded shortly.Something might happen on Friday when the wcoh is over and Rieder is still healthy.
But if agent/player asks public for a trade which lowers his trade value, I'm all for playing hard ball. I would forget about this asset and let the player rot in Sibir and wouldn't allow him for years to play NHL.
But if agent/player asks public for a trade which lowers his trade value, I'm all for playing hard ball. I would forget about this asset and let the player rot in Sibir and wouldn't allow him for years to play NHL.
Yesterday's PDOcast, whilst discussing Trouba, made the point that the changing idea of what age the average hockey player peaks might add to players taking a tougher stance during restricted free agency and exercising what rights they have. If peak production for a forward likely comes before they hit free agency, you can understand a reluctance to sign long-term at what appeared to be a reasonable AAV for a player who hasn't been in the league long.
The points about being strong with this agent are all good though - great job by him lowering his player's trade value, making the team even less reluctant to move said player. I too would definitely rather the team holds Rieder to the KHL threat. I doubt it comes to it, but even after a year out, I'm sure he would still be a good player for us, better than anything we'd get back in a trade.
It's a good contract for Chayka to work through before the serious ones get negotiated. It's one thing to frustrate Doan or even Rieder - it will be different if it's Domi. Hopefully it's easier to get the more skilled players locked up.
Completely agree. That plus the stats Sniper posted makes me think 2.5m x 2 years would be a reasonable deal for the Coyotes. I would be gutted to lose Rieder. He's looked ordinary when his pace was down and it seems like he'll never have the finish to hold onto a top 6 role, but he's also unlikely to hurt the team playing there when injuries hit. He seems a perfect middle 6 winger for this team, defensively responsible, keeping the play at the right end of the ice, while allowing us to play with speed all down the lineup.
The points about being strong with this agent are all good though - great job by him lowering his player's trade value, making the team even less reluctant to move said player. I too would definitely rather the team holds Rieder to the KHL threat. I doubt it comes to it, but even after a year out, I'm sure he would still be a good player for us, better than anything we'd get back in a trade.
It's a good contract for Chayka to work through before the serious ones get negotiated. It's one thing to frustrate Doan or even Rieder - it will be different if it's Domi. Hopefully it's easier to get the more skilled players locked up.
I thought the buyout was a surprising move because of the money involved and the change in direction it signalled, not that Vermette's play didn't warrant it. New management, (which I have definitely flip-flopped on!) showing that poor play would be held accountable despite our lack of depth. Vermette's play was hammered on here (acknowledging what a great player he was for us in the past) in almost every game thread last season. Admittedly you could find criticism of absolutely anyone or anything in a gdt, but people were upset with his play hurting the team last year long before the buyout.
For this I think it's worth looking at the timeline.
A. Quiet out of both sides.
B. Morgan floats the agent supposedly saying Kadri is a comparable which came from an unknown source.
C. KHL Threat dropped.
D. Rieder's side says it's going to be addressed after the WC but he has standing offers.
E. Morgan posts from another "source" that the Kadri comp was never a thing.
F. Coyotes camp says they were looking at a longer term deal.
G. Agent through Morgan says "Hey guys we want 2.5m what's the big deal". Then says a trade could be the best solution.
The way this all went down I don't think Rieder's camp has actually directly offered to take 2.5, this is probably the first the Coyotes heard of it
I don't think the KHL threat was ever dropped. Rieder also met with DT at the worlds but could not get a deal done.
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The agents always make the player look bad, but Rieder has the KHL as an option, so if he doesn't like the Coyotes deal he can go there. He doesn't have a piano tied to his a--, but I think we all know it is a bluff. It's his choice, he can play where he wants.
True, and what would we get for him anyway? He is a third line winger with second line upside, a dime a dozen in the NHL. We won't get much for him and how much does he really hurt us if he sits, not much. Trouba is a different story, clearly does not want to play for the Jets and is a second line D with first pairing upside. The Jets will get a good return for Trouba, and if he sits, he hurts the Jets a lot.
Reider will sign shortly
Your probably right. The question is where will they end up playing.
I guess if the Coyotes have to set a precedent, the is about the best case scenario.
Matias Maccete
Chopping up defenses
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I don't think he meant dropped meaning withdrew, he meant stopped meaning announced or made. That's when the threat was made.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Coyotes shouldn't budge. What is on the table is what he can take. He has already played every card available to him. Let him twist in the wind, because he clearly thinks he's more important than he really is. He is a year early on this ****. All he had to do was sign a bridge deal, play for the coach that adores him in every role imaginable, and then he can sign the big deal.
It would be different if he was quiet ala Boedker's last camp holdout. In that case, you can move your offer around. But this guy is perfectly okay with throwing a tamper tantrum, so don't move. Not a single cent. If the agent wants to meet over lunch, he pays for the food and drinks. As far as I'm concerned, the relationship is effectively severed. He can go do what he thinks is best for him.
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