Tribute Timothy Liljegren Discussion

[The Podium]

Yea those are the criticisms because they are true about the player and I also said I have faith he figures it out. You don't see me saying Sandin has questionable processing IQ because it's also obvious he's ahead of most in that regard. Sandin plays smooth and poised with almost unshakable confidence whereas Lilly plays the opposite. It was an issue before going playing for the big club and it will only be compounded playing in the pressure-cooker. He didn't play awful in his 11 games with the Leafs but he was a -5 and was sort of just a body out there, a step behind for the most part. Until he can prove he's gotten over those issues, it will be a fair and accurate criticism of his game, especially because he was a 1st rounder and the guy we drafted the year after is looking better.

Oh, I agree with all this and your previous post. Im just reiterating that its nothing new with him.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

It just kills me how we need to beat down our young d ... it never ever used to be like this in history of hockey with d cores ... it is only our Leafs d core where too many of us are all over them like a bad stink ... if he develops over next 2-3 years back and forth he will be fine ... key thing is his 28-35 years where d are in their prime

Who the hell is beating down our young D??? Just stating reality, some of you clearly can't handle it..No one is criticizing Sandin because he does his job well. Yea Sandin tailed off towards the end and got sent down, he's also younger and smaller so it was easy to see him getting worn out. Lilly panics and gets lost far too often, not a good look when we need stability on the back end, this has been the same issue with Lilly since his draft year. Yes he has improved immeasurably but those same problems still exist which is concerning. Again, I have faith he figures it out but are we not allowed to state reality here without the fanboys getting their panties in a twist?

 

[michi510]

I really hope he succeeds, and is able to crack Top 6 starting with being our Third Pair Right D.

I remember when we drafted Matthews, and I was looking and reading up pre season draft rankings for 2017. I thought... wow maybe we’d be able to snag up Liljegren and be set for a decade with a Top Centre and Dman. I was so stoked when we eventually got to draft him although he did fall to 17.

I still hope he can reach that potential that some saw a year prior to his draft.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Who the hell is beating down our young D??? Just stating reality, some of you clearly can't handle it..No one is criticizing Sandin because he does his job well. Yea Sandin tailed off towards the end and got sent down, he's also younger and smaller so it was easy to see him getting worn out. Lilly panics and gets lost far too often, not a good look when we need stability on the back end, this has been the same issue with Lilly since his draft year. Yes he has improved immeasurably but those same problems still exist which is concerning. Again, I have faith he figures it out but are we not allowed to state reality here without the fanboys getting their panties in a twist?

These are babies. We don't need to slap around our babies. If this is happening after 4-5 years of play then OK fine fire away. Kids need time to mature. Kids need time to get stronger. Kids need time to develop their skills. Kids need teaching of pro hockey. Kids need vet partners to teach them basics. Then more advanced positioning. This is a 4-6 year process. And guys are not linear. We are expecting way way too much. There is only a few Orr/Lindsrom's. Again it is exactly why we have not had a truly elite defender since salming and Horton. And it has been 60 years since we had a rock solid defesne.

 

[biotk]

It's funny, every time Lilly enters a new league the biggest concern is his confidence and the biggest criticism is he plays to careful. Every time...

The exact opposite of reality for the SuperElit, SHL, WJC-18, AHL, WJC-20, Leafs' training camps and preseasons. Possibly true in the NHL.

Liljegren has had periods when he has lacked confidence. During his draft year, the first half of his second season in the AHL, his third training camp/preseason. Him playing too careful is a claim that maybe can be made for his third training camp/preseason and part of his stint in the NHL.

 

[Funk21]

Of his draft year there are two every day NHL Dmen players:
Heiskanen
Makar


Foote
Valimaki
Brannstrom


Most D have gotten very limited sniff’s. He really turned it up during the playoffs last year in the AHL and was fantastic this year too. He needs to work on his confidence but our coaching staff also needs to start instilling confidence in him. He can play on our bottom pairing. But he needs to be paired with the right player. Hopefully he has used this time in Sweden to hit the training hard.

 

[Mickey Marner]

That tweet is almost a back-handed compliment. Top seven or eight is basically another year as the first RD call-up.

 

[stickty111]

Josh Kloke, a Marlies/prospects reporter and writer for the Athletic said, Liljegren has out grown the AHL and is above the league.

 

[mapleleaf979]

If Liljegren tries to play like Sandin or Reilly. He wont ever be in the NHL. Its up to Liljegren to play like Ron Hainsey. Good positioning, good stick, defer to your D partner whenever u can to move pucks. When Liljegren went for a skate with the puck, it didnt end well. He does not have good hands when he skates at full speed, he bobbles pucks. He isnt deceptive , he isnt making plays or fooling anyone with his next decision. At times he looks confused and guesses and hopes it works out. He has to play simple and literally put any offensive ambitions u have to rest, its how he grew up playing and at times cant let go of it, resulting in mistakes and trust and inevitably a demotion. Ive said that for 6 months now and Craig Button also mentioned this in an article after I had seen this for myself and mentioned it long before Button did.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Leafs ready list of Marlies for promotion | Toronto Sun

One of the Marlies likely to be with the Leafs’ group when play resumes is defenceman Timothy Liljegren. At one stage when the Leafs were without Jake Muzzin, Morgan Rielly and Cody Ceci on a banged-up blueline, he was partnering fellow first round pick Sandin, who’d been with the club all season.

“I’ve been fond of Timothy as a person and a player,” Gilman said. “I felt his game took a tremendous step. He transports the puck very well, skates very well and has a good shot, but the greatest impact was how he processed the game."

“I believe he’s ready to become an NHL player, whatever level that will be. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t play in the top seven or eight with the Leafs next year (that’s with KHL defenceman Mikko Lehtonen signed), but he has to hold up his end of the bargain.”

 

[grapes55]

I'm a little late to the handedness discussion but the top hand does most of the control 100% lol basically any skills coach will tell you that.

 

[Stephen]

It just kills me how we need to beat down our young d ... it never ever used to be like this in history of hockey with d cores ... it is only our Leafs d core where too many of us are all over them like a bad stink ... if he develops over next 2-3 years back and forth he will be fine ... key thing is his 28-35 years where d are in their prime

This is typically how D-men are developed though. We all want to see Liljegren logging huge minutes and being effective at both ends of the ice but if you scan around the league most of them aren’t really making any impact in the NHL at 21.

 

[Stephen]

If Liljegren tries to play like Sandin or Reilly. He wont ever be in the NHL.

Even Sandin can’t play like Rielly. If and when he finally breaks through as a top 4 defenseman he’s going to have to be a much more cerebral defenseman than the elite athletic offensive player Rielly is. No shame in that but they’re not the same type of player.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

This is typically how D-men are developed though. We all want to see Liljegren logging huge minutes and being effective at both ends of the ice but if you scan around the league most of them aren’t really making any impact in the NHL at 21.

In Boston
Chara
Krug
Miller
each anchor a pair - vet to developer
In Tampa even
Hedman
McDonaugh
Coburn
each anchor a pair - with 2 developers (they have Shatt too)

In Toronto Rielly is only now starting to get to vet level at 26. He is still 4 years younger than youngest of core vets on Bruins or Tampa. We have a d core that is very young and inexperienced.

 

[deletethis]

Even Sandin can’t play like Rielly. If and when he finally breaks through as a top 4 defenseman he’s going to have to be a much more cerebral defenseman than the elite athletic offensive player Rielly is. No shame in that but they’re not the same type of player.

Sandin is more in the tradition of a Tomas Kaberle or Dave Ellett than an Al Iafrate or Bryan Berard. I can dig that. I think better things happen on average with cerebral defensemen.

 

[deletethis]

In Boston
Chara
Krug
Miller
each anchor a pair - vet to developer
In Tampa even
Hedman
McDonaugh
Coburn
each anchor a pair - with 2 developers (they have Shatt too)

In Toronto Rielly is only now starting to get to vet level at 26. He is still 4 years younger than youngest of core vets on Bruins or Tampa. We have a d core that is very young and inexperienced.

Muzzin anchors another pairing, don't forget.

 

[Stephen]

In Boston
Chara
Krug
Miller
each anchor a pair - vet to developer
In Tampa even
Hedman
McDonaugh
Coburn
each anchor a pair - with 2 developers (they have Shatt too)

In Toronto Rielly is only now starting to get to vet level at 26. He is still 4 years younger than youngest of core vets on Bruins or Tampa. We have a d core that is very young and inexperienced.

Also a good example of why we can’t have too many young defensemen learning on the job. Dermott, Sandin and Liljegren forming 3 of the 6 defensemen is untenable.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Muzzin anchors another pairing, don't forget.

Yes we have 1 real vet leader who has seen and done it all. It is a big ask for 1 guy to carry the entire load.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Also a good example of why we can’t have too many young defensemen learning on the job. Dermott, Sandin and Liljegren forming 3 of the 6 defensemen is untenable.

Yes 100% agreed. It is a recipe for failure.

 

[deletethis]

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before that the Leafs' defense with Sandin, Dermott and Liljegren would be way too young for a championship based on history. That's 21, 24 and 22. L.A. is the last team to pull that off in 2012 (Voynov-21, Doughty-21 and Martinez-24).

 

[deletethis]

The next question is "how does the GM parlay this not-ready-for-a-playoff-run" defense into one that is. It isn't necessarily as hard as it first appears. 28 to 32 year old journeyman is probably a more reliable choice as a support defenseman for a Cup run than a 21 year old. These players aren't as costly you may think. You just need a modest amount of cap leeway. Getting the cap leeway is where the cost will be incurred. Johnsson? Kapanen? Kerfoot?

 

[Martin Skoula]

Also a good example of why we can’t have too many young defensemen learning on the job. Dermott, Sandin and Liljegren forming 3 of the 6 defensemen is untenable.

At the same time, Boston gave a 20 year old rookie Carlo 20 mins a night in the regular season, and they gave a 19 year old rookie McAvoy with 0 NHL games of experience 26 minutes a night in the playoffs. I guess Morrow is their Dermott equivalent, also a 24 year old getting 22 mins/night in the playoffs that year.

The rookies need vets to learn from, but they also need big boy minutes. 12 minutes of playing against the 4th line with 10 minutes in between shifts sometimes is not how good defensemen are made.

 

[Mickey Marner]

The next question is "how does the GM parlay this not-ready-for-a-playoff-run" defense into one that is. It isn't necessarily as hard as it first appears. 28 to 32 year old journeyman is probably a more reliable choice as a support defenseman for a Cup run than a 21 year old. These players aren't as costly you may think. You just need a modest amount of cap leeway. Getting the cap leeway is where the cost will be incurred. Johnsson? Kapanen? Kerfoot?

I think we should package Dermott and preferably Johnsson for a vet RD. Another Muzzin-type deal where we get 1.5 seasons & 2 playoffs wouldn't be bad. We're almost certainly going 7-3-1 protection for the expansion draft and Sandin & Liljegren are exempt, which leaves it between Dermott and Holl for the 3rd spot. Might as well upgrade the 3rd spot. Or perhaps Sandin and Liljegren are more attractive bait for teams trying to avoid losing a good defenseman to Seattle. In any case, it's hard to justify keeping all 3 with the way our defense has shaped up.

 

[Stephen]

At the same time, Boston gave a 20 year old rookie Carlo 20 mins a night in the regular season, and they gave a 19 year old rookie McAvoy with 0 NHL games of experience 26 minutes a night in the playoffs. I guess Morrow is their Dermott equivalent, also a 24 year old getting 22 mins/night in the playoffs that year.

The rookies need vets to learn from, but they also need big boy minutes. 12 minutes of playing against the 4th line with 10 minutes in between shifts sometimes is not how good defensemen are made.

Boston has an easier time breaking in rookies because they have an abundance of established veteran core leadership at all positions, including defense. If we had a Chara to babysit things would be easier for the kids.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Boston has an easier time breaking in rookies because they have an abundance of established veteran core leadership at all positions, including defense. If we had a Chara to babysit things would be easier for the kids.

That's a fair point. Leadership builds on itself too, if Chara retires tomorrow they could comfortably throw a rookie out with McAvoy or Carlo without worrying too much.