Recalled/Assigned: Tim Gettinger to Hartford, Boo Nieves to NYR

[Raspewtin]

waiting for my dream line of Kreider-Nieves-Chara any day now

 

[bernmeister]

The Boo-Kreider thing always gives me a good chuckle since we've had a C that's bigger (same size, more muscle), faster, more offensively skilled, and more defensively proficient in Zibanejad who we already know has a strong history of success with Kreider.
I like Nieves, but c'mon now

you are paradoxically both missing and proving my pt.

I said correct application of formula
driver Kreider - facilitator Boo - finisher Zib works

you suggest switching Zib to facilitator b'c due to better chemistry with Kreider, he both is better facilitator and better C. Fine. But then who is the RW finisher in that equation, prefer a righty?

Zib can be facilitator or finisher w/CK
Boo can only facilitate

You can go other directions, but
Strome we should deal he is not getting ballpark 5 x 5 from us, we need cap after Kakko, Kravtsov elc
Breadman - our best player scores w/anybody but should be 1RW with lefty shooting Kakko 1LW, and Kravtsov as our 1C
Buchnevich, Howden, Andersson none have demonstrated special chemistry w/CK like Zib has, so no worthiness for the experiment.

Give Nieves, who has had no chance, a chance.

ps, karma is on my side, just ask John Lennon...
All we are saying
is give Nieves a chance

lol​

 

[bernmeister]

There no point being missed. You said there is no reason as to not to try this experiment. You were shown why a) NO ONE in their right mind would do this and b) the reason as to why NO ONE would do it.

spoken like someone who fears if they ever did try it, I would be proven correct

 

[bernmeister]

I know it's probably stupid to bring up logic here but.....

1. Why would we move our #1 C - Zib - to wing - in favor of Nieves?

2. Chytil is playing like a #1C since he came up. Why would we move him to #3C in favor of Nieves?

I feel it's probably unwise to move our 2 best centers, to make room for a guy who has never proven he can stick on the 4th line of an NHL team, let alone play in the top 9.

#1
pls see what I just posted about Zib.

First, you have to ask if, do we agree Kakko has emerged as 1LW pushing Kreider to 2LW? If yes, then ask if you want Zib as 1C or as 2C b'c he is on the same line with Kreider, admitting Zib-Kreider has proven, good chemistry.

If you said yes 2x, then it is a matter of do you stay w/Zib, who could be great as either a role emphasizing facilitator or a scorer on that line, as your pivot, primarily a facilitator. Or, since he is a righty shot and can accept finisher [scorer] responsibilities, do we play him at RW and go w/another pivot?

@2
Chytil is progressing to be a fine 2C with any combo, but like I said, if we can get away with using a lesser player b'c he happens to have complementary fit to CK, then push Chytil down to 3C, making that line stronger.

 

[motopanekeku]

#1
pls see what I just posted about Zib.

First, you have to ask if, do we agree Kakko has emerged as 1LW pushing Kreider to 2LW? If yes, then ask if you want Zib as 1C or as 2C b'c he is on the same line with Kreider, admitting Zib-Kreider has proven, good chemistry.

If you said yes 2x, then it is a matter of do you stay w/Zib, who could be great as either a role emphasizing facilitator or a scorer on that line, as your pivot, primarily a facilitator. Or, since he is a righty shot and can accept finisher [scorer] responsibilities, do we play him at RW and go w/another pivot?

@2
Chytil is progressing to be a fine 2C with any combo, but like I said, if we can get away with using a lesser player b'c he happens to have complementary fit to CK, then push Chytil down to 3C, making that line stronger.

I am mostly a silent, appreciative lurker on these boards but I have to finally speak to these absurd rants and proposals.

I don't think you are watching the same sport as everyone else. I've gone through all the stages and have actually come to be entertained by your posts. It's a guilty pleasure of sorts. Kind of like watching videos of people freaking out at McDonald's; dirty, base exploitation of the extremities of human sanity.

Congratulations for your bravery and singular interpretation of the sport. The level of noise coming from almost every one of your posts is almost as intense as the rise in blood pressure I experience after having read them.

 

[bernmeister]

I am mostly a silent, appreciative lurker on these boards but I have to finally speak to these absurd rants and proposals.

I don't think you are watching the same sport as everyone else. I've gone through all the stages and have actually come to be entertained by your posts. It's a guilty pleasure of sorts. Kind of like watching videos of people freaking out at McDonald's; dirty, base exploitation of the extremities of human sanity.

Congratulations for your bravery and singular interpretation of the sport. The level of noise coming from almost every one of your posts is almost as intense as the rise in blood pressure I experience after having read them.

not original, but always applicable:
tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide

 

[YoSoyLalo]

I don’t know why ya’ll hate on my man bernie so much, dude may be out to lunch with the synergy thing but he’s a good dude. Some of you seem personally offended by his opinions.

 

[eco's bones]

you are paradoxically both missing and proving my pt.

I said correct application of formula
driver Kreider - facilitator Boo - finisher Zib works

you suggest switching Zib to facilitator b'c due to better chemistry with Kreider, he both is better facilitator and better C. Fine. But then who is the RW finisher in that equation, prefer a righty?

Zib can be facilitator or finisher w/CK
Boo can only facilitate

You can go other directions, but
Strome we should deal he is not getting ballpark 5 x 5 from us, we need cap after Kakko, Kravtsov elc
Breadman - our best player scores w/anybody but should be 1RW with lefty shooting Kakko 1LW, and Kravtsov as our 1C
Buchnevich, Howden, Andersson none have demonstrated special chemistry w/CK like Zib has, so no worthiness for the experiment.

Give Nieves, who has had no chance, a chance.

ps, karma is on my side, just ask John Lennon...
All we are saying
is give Nieves a chance

lol​

We've been through this over and over again. Nieves does not have the creative instincts to be a productive top line player. He was barely a 2nd line player at Michigan U. when he played there. He's not really a 2nd line player at the AHL level. What he is really is a bigger, stronger, faster but lesser version of Jesper Fast and being able to skate well does not make anybody a creative player. He doesn't have the offensive instincts necessary and it's as simple as that. Look at his point totals--college, AHL, NHL--look at his goal totals, look at his shots on goal totals. Nothing points to him being able to fill an offensive role at the NHL level.....and the other point to be made here is we don't need him to become a big offensive producer. We have other guys who can do that and who have shown that they can do that not only in other leagues and other levels of play but in the NHL. Nieves IMO is capable of being an asset at the NHL level but it's in a limited capacity. He can make a career as a 4th liner and there's nothing bad or wrong about that.

 

[bernmeister]

I don’t know why ya’ll hate on my man bernie so much, dude may be out to lunch with the synergy thing but he’s a good dude. Some of you seem personally offended by his opinions.

Thanks very much for the kind word.

It should be obvious to all that what someone --- anyone --- says is never automatically, inherently correct by fiat, but rather, truth ultimately prevails, and assertions are determined by merit.

The ultimate resolution of this matter will be resolved by a legit application of my proposed experiment.

In the meantime, on this day for which we give thanks for so much, my gratitude to all who support freedom of speech and the competition of ideas.

best,
bernmeister

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Much as Shoeless Joe Jackson’s glove was where triples went to die, Nieves’s stick is the same for offensive hockey. Nothing against him personally and I wish him a great career — I’m just done with him in the NYR org. Let’s let other, younger guys who can maybe contribute in both ends of the ice get those minutes...

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I feel bad for Gettinger. Imagine being sent down because the coach thinks Micheal Haley is more important...

 

[bernmeister]

We've been through this over and over again. Nieves does not have the creative instincts to be a productive top line player. He was barely a 2nd line player at Michigan U. when he played there. He's not really a 2nd line player at the AHL level. What he is really is a bigger, stronger, faster but lesser version of Jesper Fast and being able to skate well does not make anybody a creative player. He doesn't have the offensive instincts necessary and it's as simple as that. Look at his point totals--college, AHL, NHL--look at his goal totals, look at his shots on goal totals. Nothing points to him being able to fill an offensive role at the NHL level.....and the other point to be made here is we don't need him to become a big offensive producer. We have other guys who can do that and who have shown that they can do that not only in other leagues and other levels of play but in the NHL. Nieves IMO is capable of being an asset at the NHL level but it's in a limited capacity. He can make a career as a 4th liner and there's nothing bad or wrong about that.

EB while I do not agree w/you 111% of the time, I concur with the visual takeaway you are a quality poster.
Today's insight is no exception, and I give thanks this thanksgiving to all, agree or disagree, who (often taking pains to do so) attempt to make this a great place to visit by elevating the level of discussion.

You bring a new wrinkle to this discussion which commands fair appraisal: does Nieves have the instincts to contribute offensively? Especially when clearly, undisputedly, his track record suggests no?

Specific elements previously criticizing Boo have not always been objectively fair. In an effort to rush to condemnation of my prop, several things were said and I will not regurgitate them all.

For example, some said Boo got a fair look, same as Andersson/Howden, etc, when clearly, given quality of linemates, he did not.
Some said that he lacked enough ability to be successful when, other as to being a shooter which is applicable to most of the team, that facet only I conceded, such allegations are false. He is not an elite skater, but certainly a solid combo of speed, size, reach and passing. I would say he has good vision, not great vision. His playmaking is limited, and as I am being honest, I request you do the same in reply, and admit much of that may well have to do with the quality of linemates. McLeod illustrates my point. Nieves has NEVER gotten a fair shot w/Kreider as I advised should be done.

But what you raise is different. It is not just ability, it is instinct and recognition of the situation at game speed, and my take is you are saying even if he has the ability, his execution of it is compromised by mental, not physical insufficiency.

You may be right, maybe not. Let's think this through aloud.
If a person does not have actual ability, instinct and intangibles will only carry so far. If you have what we will summarize as instinct, you still need the talent for the follow through.

As relates to Nieves, I ask you to be open minded and honest as to this:

First, while there is no disputing his history, which you are correct to bring up, when in that history did he ever have sustained time for chemistry with quality scoring, finisher Ws --- assuming his system/line was conducive to more than mere checking?

Last year he played several shifts with Lias, and Andersson's skating then was an abortion. I believe Lias was our leading turnover machine for that period (kudos to him for working hard to now start to approach NHL level skating). And if a dude has subpar scorer/finisher qualities, does that not give a pivot, any pivot, pause as to whether he should complete the emerging play, or should he, given whatever the exact situation is, try to see if other teammates can join and develop a better play with better shot selection at higher chance of scoring?
To illustrate most fully, if you see Panarin in your sights, you don't think twice, you execute the pass. If Haley is the one getting that pass and it is not looking like close to an open net, do you still do it -- instantly without thinking -- or do you give it a half a sec to be sure Trouba/Fox or other legit shot isn't joining the play?

Now Kreider is not lights out on scoring, he is a driver of the play. My eyes and judgment tell me their pairing would be highly complementary, to the point of synergy, but limited to just those two, you could only hope for increased scoring as their superior skating maybe creating some open ice advantages. You still need a finisher. If you have Kreider and Boo, or even Kreider and Zib, and the other W is Haley, it is just not good.

But the mistake this board is making is it considers Haley and Boo similarly interchangeable. That is not the case. And allow me to emphasize that is in no small part to an emphasis on Boo as a facilitator. As a facilitator, he does not have to first and foremost put the puck in the net. He has to facilitate, and make it easier for CK and ideally Zib, to do so. He does that with speed, solid overall play (even if that does not translate into a single aspect of stardom), and them knowing he is the one who will emphasize defense and have their back if they pinch, which he can obviously do.

Setting aside that logic, there is the exception to the rule reality. We see in baseball a Cy Young guy is dominant vs 98% of the league, but there's always one .220 hitter who owns him. Happens every year.

I am not saying Nieves equally delivers as a facilitator in all situations, I am saying the lynchpin is marrying Kreider and Nieves, and find an adequate finisher -- currently pref Zib.

So while I see your point based on history as given due to circumstances so far, it does not automatically mean, for certain, Nieves w/CK and the correct complementary W would be certain to fail.

This brings me to my second point.
This is not saying ship Geo out and we make our bed w/Shesty and there is zero going back.

This is saying give CK + Zib 2-3 wks of practice time to = comfortable level of familiarity, to address the reaction/instinct issue you raise to get best chemistry.
Then, for better or worse, a reasonable 2-3 wks of application in the field. Barring injuries, I am confident this works.

The reward of me being right is too high to risk the low cost of not trying it.

Of course, the remnants of the impatient win now crowd that doesn't usually go for controlled experiments like this constitutes a herd mentality.

And all in the herd have a right to their differing opinion. But they don't have the right to insist I bend, buckle and break in capitulation to their view, esp not in a vacuum, when it is not so difficult to prove my theory one way or the other.

I vote for the acid test, and I hope you will also, along with the rest of the board. Then we'll see. There is no chance of that now, but if enough surplus Fs are moved, maybe.

Happy Thanksgiving EB.

 

[bernmeister]

Much as Shoeless Joe Jackson’s glove was where triples went to die, Nieves’s stick is the same for offensive hockey. Nothing against him personally and I wish him a great career — I’m just done with him in the NYR org. Let’s let other, younger guys who can maybe contribute in both ends of the ice get those minutes...

I will be happy to second your motion IF you first admit he is entitled to a decent chance, which he has otherwise received except as to quality of W linemates, AND then agree fairness aside, we have no intelligent reason to not experiment and at least try Boo w/Kreider + as I've suggested.

 

[bernmeister]

I feel bad for Gettinger. Imagine being sent down because the coach thinks Micheal Haley is more important...

OMG -- is this beginning of end times?
I totally agree.

Needs to stay: Nieves, McKegg, Gettinger (assuming he can actually skate which at this pt we think he can)
Needs to go: Namest., Smith, Haley
one down two to go...

Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

OMG -- is this beginning of end times?
I totally agree.

Needs to stay: Nieves, McKegg, Gettinger (assuming he can actually skate which at this pt we think he can)
Needs to go: Namest., Smith, Haley
one down two to go...

Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

I will be spending today putting together furniture and going to bed early. No Thanksgiving in Austria. I will be in NY for new years eve though to start the new year together with my girlfriend

 

[bernmeister]

I will be spending today putting together furniture and going to bed early. No Thanksgiving in Austria. I will be in NY for new years eve though to start the new year together with my girlfriend

Yes, I see your Vienna location, but did not feel that technicality excluded you from good wishes.
Best whatever, whenever.

 

[cwede]

I feel bad for Gettinger. Imagine being sent down because the coach thinks Micheal Haley is more important...

c'mon this is silly, i suspect you don't even believe that, just enjoying sharing pot-shots at Haley ..

Haley and B.Smith are the right guys to be the 12th and 13th F, getting 12th F minutes,
not a young player who should be getting ice time regularly

so much attention paid to how little ice time Lias was getting,
now complain that a young guy was sent back to play top 9 AHL minutes, rather than <5 minutes per NHL game?

there is a good and smart reason that marginal veterans hold down the lowest roster spots

 

[eco's bones]

Gettinger IMO is fine. He is 21 years old--he's not burning up the AHL but he's done alright. He's gotten looks at the NHL. For someone who projects to be a bottom 6'er and more than likely a 4th liner spending time in the AHL getting more minutes isn't bad. When he does play NHL games it should give him clearer ideas of the things he needs to do but there's no hurry on him and bringing him up permanently wouldn't necessarily make us a better team. To get a permanent NHL job Gettinger needs to progress his game some more.

As far as Haley I like him in certain situations. Do we need to play him every game? No. But IMO he's a good guy to have around against the heavier teams in the league. For instance Boston and Washington.

 

[motopanekeku]

OR, more likely, the matter will be resolved by the complete disregard of an absurd proposal.

Just tell me one thing: why Nieves? Why not any other player that isn't suited for that role? Why not propose Howden for 1C? Or Lias?

Happy Tomhanksgiving

 

[Hire Sather]

c'mon this is silly, i suspect you don't even believe that, just enjoying sharing pot-shots at Haley ..

Haley and B.Smith are the right guys to be the 12th and 13th F, getting 12th F minutes,
not a young player who should be getting ice time regularly

so much attention paid to how little ice time Lias was getting,
now complain that a young guy was sent back to play top 9 AHL minutes, rather than <5 minutes per NHL game?

there is a good and smart reason that marginal veterans hold down the lowest roster spots

Michael Haley is not an NHL player and should not be a 12th or 13th forward on any team at this level. Claim someone off waivers. Anything else. We sign these guys every year and they end up playing too much. It's honestly so ridiculous to me.

 

[cwede]

Michael Haley is not an NHL player and should not be a 12th or 13th forward on any team at this level. Claim someone off waivers. Anything else. We sign these guys every year and they end up playing too much. It's honestly so ridiculous to me.

i don't disagree, this reply wasn't about Haley, guys ,like Brickley and Holland from last year, might have more to give and less to risk, but also marginal guys, both of them in Europe now

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I don’t know why ya’ll hate on my man bernie so much, dude may be out to lunch with the synergy thing but he’s a good dude. Some of you seem personally offended by his opinions.

There's this theme of trying to manipulate himself into being correct that annoys me. I also dislike ignoring reality and selectively picking at stats. Dont smile at me and act all friendly and then turn around and tell me complete lies.

When bern says "there is NO evidence to prove otherwise" even though there is? BS is BS whether you smile as you say it or not

"You just dont like that I don't follow the herd". That sort of thing is so disingenuous. We dont have real arguments we're just following the herd unlike him.

I dont have a problem with what he wants, it's how he presents it

 

[bernmeister]

...

"There's this theme of trying to manipulate himself into being correct that annoys me."
This is as opposed to manipulating myself into being wrong?
lol.

"I also dislike ignoring reality and selectively picking at stats. ....."
Look in the mirror and physician, heal thyself.
After you have first removed the beam from your own eye, then you will see clearly enough to remove the beam from your brother's eye.

not original but apt.

I have made a bottom line assertion which is based on fact: Nieves has never had a chance with any appreciable W talent. More specifically, I have not guaranteed that Nieves would succeed with elite talent like Panarin, tho that obviously would improve his chances if we were making odds. I have only said Kreider and the correct RW to be a finisher emphasizing scoring responsibility.

If I am wrong it is no big whoop.
If I am right the club is getting more mileage than they should out of a lesser player, which helps the team, so you and others should be in favor of this, not etched in stone ongoing, but for a brief experiment as I've described.

But some people are unwilling to even consider what may be possible.
Should I just shut up and take it from then, when they, not I, are demonstrating inflexibility and closemindedness?

btw, Nieves atm is +1, limited action 3 games, no PP opportunity whatsoever, and while Fast is ok [tho not a scoring juggernaut he is a bit of a facilitator], Smith is a black hole on offense.

You want a justified basis to jump my ass?
Do the experiment as I've specified, and if it fails I'll take my lumps.

In the meantime, my vote is we all have an open mind.
​

 

[Vitto79]

If they go w Howden at 4tg line C then send Haley down for Gettinger and Nieves can spare

 

[Hire Sather]

"There's this theme of trying to manipulate himself into being correct that annoys me."
This is as opposed to manipulating myself into being wrong?
lol.

"I also dislike ignoring reality and selectively picking at stats. ....."
Look in the mirror and physician, heal thyself.
After you have first removed the beam from your own eye, then you will see clearly enough to remove the beam from your brother's eye.

not original but apt.

I have made a bottom line assertion which is based on fact: Nieves has never had a chance with any appreciable W talent. More specifically, I have not guaranteed that Nieves would succeed with elite talent like Panarin, tho that obviously would improve his chances if we were making odds. I have only said Kreider and the correct RW to be a finisher emphasizing scoring responsibility.

If I am wrong it is no big whoop.
If I am right the club is getting more mileage than they should out of a lesser player, which helps the team, so you and others should be in favor of this, not etched in stone ongoing, but for a brief experiment as I've described.

But some people are unwilling to even consider what may be possible.
Should I just shut up and take it from then, when they, not I, are demonstrating inflexibility and closemindedness?

btw, Nieves atm is +1, limited action 3 games, no PP opportunity whatsoever, and while Fast is ok [tho not a scoring juggernaut he is a bit of a facilitator], Smith is a black hole on offense.

You want a justified basis to jump my ass?
Do the experiment as I've specified, and if it fails I'll take my lumps.

In the meantime, my vote is we all have an open mind.
​

The problem with this whole thing is you never will be 'proven' wrong because your stupid idea will NEVER be tried so you can go on and on until we're all DEAD that your 'expiriment' was never proven false