Thoughts on the rebuild? PART 2

[Ice-Tray]

Ottawa fans, I come in peace. I know tkachuk is nigh untouchable, but what about Monahan+ as a base? Tempting at all?

Nope, what about your Tkachuk, brown + tempting at all?

 

[Sensfan4life]

How do you know that I failed to see the hypocrisy?

Even though the ownership crap has been the same song running for going on three years now, that everyone in here wishes he was gone, and not a single person can do anything about it beyond withholding funds from the team coffers, we’re still having to listen to the same crap over and over again.

He says his bit, I say mine, and then you say yours from whatever your current username is. There are no mysteries in here.

I don't remember Gesus attacking you by calling your posts/opinion constant punishment.

If I missed it, please feel free to point out his attack on you designed to silence your differing opinion.

 

[Sensfan4life]

We all have our own convictions but as far as i am concerned if you're quitting on this franchise right now when the going is tough and/or because you hate the owner dont come back when the team start winning again or when we have a new owner. Thats why Ottawa cant keep their sports teams.

Can a Sens fan withhold their funds from Eugene, but not be seen as quitting on the franchise?

 

[stempniaksen]

How do you know that I failed to see the hypocrisy?

Even though the ownership crap has been the same song running for going on three years now, that everyone in here wishes he was gone, and not a single person can do anything about it beyond withholding funds from the team coffers, we’re still having to listen to the same crap over and over again.

He says his bit, I say mine, and then you say yours from whatever your current username is. There are no mysteries in here.

It's the same song and dance from both sides, I'm not gonna disagree with you there.

That being said, unless I'm mistaken, this isn't one of the threads that has been censored with the no-Melnyk talk and, as such, Gesus (among others) are free to use this particular thread to continue to vent about the state of the team and the state of ownership.

There are a handful of threads now purposefully designed to avoid ownership talk where people can talk about the team "in peace". If you have issues with people venting their frustrations would it not make sense for you to post in those threads?

I'm honestly not here to try and police your posting, I'm just not sure what you're gaining by "shaming" people about posting anti ownership messages in one of the last threads where someone can actually do that without breaking the forum rules.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It's the same song and dance from both sides, I'm not gonna disagree with you there.

That being said, unless I'm mistaken, this isn't one of the threads that has been censored with the no-Melnyk talk and, as such, Gesus (among others) are free to use this particular thread to continue to vent about the state of the team and the state of ownership.

There are a handful of threads now purposefully designed to avoid ownership talk where people can talk about the team "in peace". If you have issues with people venting their frustrations would it not make sense for you to post in those threads?

I'm honestly not here to try and police your posting, I'm just not sure what you're gaining by "shaming" people about posting anti ownership messages in one of the last threads where someone can actually do that without breaking the forum rules.

I’m not trying to shame anyone, least of all Gesus. I just get tired of reading about how much people are giving up on the team and how much people hate the owner, and how they’re not going to watch/support/ enjoy the team until he’s gone.

It’s tired, everyone should have put their money where their mouths are by now and turned the page. I’m not offended by the thread, nor am I trying to police it either. I responded to Gesus in particular because I have always enjoyed his perspectives. I friggin want the guy to move on past his hate and disappointment towards the owner and start extracting some enjoyment from wherever he can.

We all hate the owner, and he’ll be gone eventually. He doesn’t give two shits about any of us in here, so why are we being miserable about him.

Anyways, I get your point. Perhaps I should just ignore it, and that’s fair enough.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Clearly I'm the minority, but some humility, empathy towards the fans, and some acceptance of responsibility was all I ever really asked for. Maybe some philosophy shifting of how to allocate the limited budget as well. I would have continued being a paying customer on those small points. Now, I feel like I was dared to stay away, challenged even, and I'll never be a paying Ottawa Senators customer ever again as long as Melnyk owns the team, full stop never again, not even a toque, hat or gift for my kid. There was a time I followed this team religously through thick and thin. Over twenty years. My walls are still covered with memorabilia, jerseys galore, and had center ice package for over 10 years straight, sometimes also bought the online center ice subscription too. I know they don't care, but thats where this minority sports fan voter falls.

I'm not questioning your commitment as a fan of the team, but just to clarify, very little of the revenue from memorabilia, jerseys, merchandise, center ice, etc. actually goes to the team. That's almost all HRR collected and re-distributed by the NHL. The team receives a very small cut of the royalties from merchandise sales, for instance. Some estimates are around $6 per jersey (assuming jersey price of $120).

 

[Sweatred]

Ottawa fans, I come in peace. I know tkachuk is nigh untouchable, but what about Monahan+ as a base? Tempting at all?

No - we have a shortage of top 6 players but project a lot of bottom 9. There is no need to dilute talent by selling what little assets we have for volume orientated packages.

Brady’s buddy (Norris) in coming and we have other US born players like White, Brown, Pinto, Wolanin etx. We are more likely to trade for MT than flip you Brady.

 

[Sens]

Nope, what about your Tkachuk, brown + tempting at all?

Monohan has substantially more value then Brown

 

[GCK]

Can a Sens fan withhold their funds from Eugene, but not be seen as quitting on the franchise?

Yes 100%. My only issue is when so called fans laugh gleefully at anything bad that happens to the team or tie anything Sens to Eugene. It’s find to find joy in Melnyk legal trouble or business gaffes, but the absolute negativity regarding hockey ops makes Me SMH. I guess I just can’t understand why some people can’t separate the CURRENT owner from the franchise.

 

[Sweatred]

My point is that no one event is to blame and no one type of fan (season ticket holders, casual fans, rabid fans that buy singles because they can't afford season tickets, businesses that buy up tickets ect) is going to explain the current situation. Walk on water is just an example of a series of actions that derail trust. When Dorion talks about how he has full authority of coaching decisions, and Melnyk comes out and undermines him, it weakens the trust average fans have that things are in good hands. They may not single out that event, but it all adds up.

Suggesting that one thing is masking another is missing the forest among the trees.

That wasn’t my point - my point was that this organization had an attendance problem and it existed 1) before the team sucked and 2) the average fan hate vs EM ramped up.

When this team doesn’t suck and EM hate tapers away we will still have an attendance problem.

 

[BonkTastic]

When this team doesn’t suck and EM hate tonnes down we will still have an attendance problem.

I would honestly question if attendance will ever recover to pre-"Melnyk Hate" era numbers while he's still the primary owner of the team.

I think there's a possibility that the brand itself has been significantly damaged in the past half decade, and as long as the Melnyk association still exists, that they'll never fully recover in this market. I think it's very possible that there is permanent brand damage done here for as long as ownership remains unchanged.

Like... This is not just low crowds because we're rebuilding with a young team. There are two recovery points here - one where a Melnyk-owned team starts making the playoffs on a regular basis, and one where a Senators team, owned by another entity, initiates a wholesale identity change in this market.

IMO, the 2nd recovery point has a significantly higher ceiling than the 1st one does.

 

[Sweatred]

I would honestly question if attendance will ever recover to pre-"Melnyk Hate" era numbers while he's still the primary owner of the team.

I think there's a possibility that the brand itself has been significantly damaged in the past half decade, and as long as the Melnyk association still exists, that they'll never fully recover in this market. I think it's very possible that there is permanent brand damage done here for as long as ownership remains unchanged.

Like... This is not just low crowds because we're rebuilding with a young team. There are two recovery points here - one where a Melnyk-owned team starts making the playoffs on a regular basis, and one where a Senators team, owned by another entity, initiates a wholesale identity change in this market.

IMO, the 2nd recovery point has a significantly higher ceiling than the 1st one does.

For sure ... especially with the possibility of a new rink. A new rink and a new owner combined with a rebuilding team with some young star potential (Laf/Byf type) should boost this team into a contenting window would probably carry attendance for 4-5+ years.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Monohan has substantially more value then Brown

Well there was a + there, but I wasn’t being serious. We’re not trading BT.

 

[Micklebot]

That wasn’t my point - my point was that this organization had an attendance problem and it existed 1) before the team sucked and 2) the average fan hate vs EM ramped up.

When this team doesn’t suck and EM hate tapers away we will still have an attendance problem.

You're creating a false equivalency between an attendance problem that has existed before when we weren't able to match other Canadian markets because of unique challenges of this market, and what is currently happening, but that's not really my point here.

Nobody disputes that challenges existed before the team started doing poorly, or before the hate for Melnyk really ramped up so to suggest that the latter is masking the true problem imo is erroneous. Everybody knows the problems this franchise faces, they were discussed ad nauseum prior to our turn for the worse and the declaration of war on Melnyk by a component of the fan base.

In fact, part of why Melnyk is so hated currently is because of how one of the potential solutions to a perceived major challenge to attendance (location/Lebreton) was handled.

These are compounding issues, not red herrings.

 

[Sweatred]

You're creating a false equivalency between an attendance problem that has existed before when we weren't able to match other Canadian markets because of unique challenges of this market, and what is currently happening, but that's not really my point here.

Nobody disputes that challenges existed before the team started doing poorly, or before the hate for Melnyk really ramped up so to suggest that the latter is masking the true problem imo is erroneous. Everybody knows the problems this franchise faces, they were discussed ad nauseum prior to our turn for the worse and the declaration of war on Melnyk by a component of the fan base.

In fact, part of why Melnyk is so hated currently is because of how one of the potential solutions to a perceived major challenge to attendance (location/Lebreton) was handled.

These are compounding issues, not red herrings.

ehhh - that’s all I said. You chose to dispute my point while reminding me that nobody disputes my point. The other option was scroll on.

 

[Micklebot]

ehhh - that’s all I said. You chose to dispute my point while reminding me that nobody disputes my point. The other option was scroll on.

Your point appeared to be that Melnyk out and poor play was obscuring the underlying attendance problem. I got that from when you said:

We had an attendance problem when we were in the ECF before the EM hate ramped up.... that problem hasn’t gone away, it is artificially obscured with the #melynkout crowd and poor play.

My point was that nothing is being obscured away, because everyone from the fans, the media, and the team has acknowledged the market's challenges and that hasn't really changed, fans, media and the team still acknowledge for example, that the arena location is not ideal.

The reason this is important imo is that our attendance challenges before were manageable before with potential, albeit expensive, solutions available (Downtown arena). What we are seeing with the poor play and in particular the Melnyk hate is a compounding effect. CTC attendance has reached a historic low at this point.

At this point, as @BonkTastic has suggested, it's likely Melnyk has done long term damage to the brand. I don't think he can ever go back to being a popular figure among the fans. I'm not sure we can get back to manageable attendance challenges with Melnyk.

 

[coladin]

My point is that no one event is to blame and no one type of fan (season ticket holders, casual fans, rabid fans that buy singles because they can't afford season tickets, businesses that buy up tickets ect) is going to explain the current situation. Walk on water is just an example of a series of actions that derail trust. When Dorion talks about how he has full authority of coaching decisions, and Melnyk comes out and undermines him, it weakens the trust average fans have that things are in good hands. They may not single out that event, but it all adds up.

Suggesting that one thing is masking another is missing the forest among the trees.

I mean, the "walk on water" comment is a curious one to hold on to, and I had completely forgotten that one. Perhaps it points to a very sensitive market or one looking constantly for justification for not supporting the team. There are many, many worse ones to dig up. To say that particular moment helps derail trust is a little much in my opinion.

Trust issues vary from person to person, for sure. But this is professional sports and we are all just pawns part of a bigger game. That has never changed, regardless of which league you follow.

 

[coladin]

It started when Alfie wanted out of Ottawa and went to Detroit

That was a huge turning point in fans losing trust in Melnyk. Then Alfie came back into management and left AGAIN. that was another blow. Alfie also came out and dissed ownership when his comments were supposedly supposed to be off the record

It's been snow balling since then

You sure it didn't start with Bridgman? I don't think you went back far enough

 

[coladin]

Can a Sens fan withhold their funds from Eugene, but not be seen as quitting on the franchise?

I see you are new here. We are trying to be all-encompassing, kumbaya and try not to compare each other's fandom. That is the most loaded question on Sens HF

 

[Do Make Say Think]

You sure it didn't start with Bridgman? I don't think you went back far enough

The first notable dip in attendance that never recovered was the season after Alfie left. We had just utterly annihilated the Habs and he left because he knew this franchise was going nowhere with Melnyk at the helm since Melnyk refused to spend more on a team that had just won it's first playoff round in quite a while.

Momentum is a thing in business and Melnyk did everything he could to cut off the fanbase's enthusiasm at the knees.

 

[Micklebot]

I mean, the "walk on water" comment is a curious one to hold on to, and I had completely forgotten that one. Perhaps it points to a very sensitive market or one looking constantly for justification for not supporting the team. There are many, many worse ones to dig up. To say that particular moment helps derail trust is a little much in my opinion.

Trust issues vary from person to person, for sure. But this is professional sports and we are all just pawns part of a bigger game. That has never changed, regardless of which league you follow.

Again, it's no one thing. The Walk on water thing just fed into an already existing belief that the GM wasn't in full control of hockey decisions. It's also not the words themselves, but rather that they directly undercut what Dorion was saying days earlier. The mixed messaging is part of the problem.

As for a sensitive fanbase, I always get a chuckle out of that sort of suggestion; as though there is something in the water that makes fans of this team different. If the fans are different, it's likely the result of how the team has opted to treat them, not something inherent among fans of this team. You want a loyal fanbase, earn their loyalty.

 

[coladin]

The first notable dip in attendance that never recovered was the season after Alfie left. We had just utterly annihilated the Habs and he left because he knew this franchise was going nowhere with Melnyk at the helm since Melnyk refused to spend more on a team that had just won it's first playoff round in quite a while.

Momentum is a thing in business and Melnyk did everything he could to cut off the fanbase's enthusiasm at the knees.

Place was always papered, until 2016. So, Alfie rarely helped pack the place legitimately. I enjoyed the Hamburglar run, and the 2017 playoffs. Alfie leaving hurt, but there was ample, incredible hockey after he left, filled with awesome players and dynamite moments.

 

[coladin]

Again, it's no one thing. The Walk on water thing just fed into an already existing belief that the GM wasn't in full control of hockey decisions. It's also not the words themselves, but rather that they directly undercut what Dorion was saying days earlier. The mixed messaging is part of the problem.

As for a sensitive fanbase, I always get a chuckle out of that sort of suggestion; as though there is something in the water that makes fans of this team different. If the fans are different, it's likely the result of how the team has opted to treat them, not something inherent among fans of this team. You want a loyal fanbase, earn their loyalty.

I know it's not one thing, I will repeat that among things, to remember that one is weird, that's all. In the grand scheme of many things.

Loyalty is earned, and we all have the experiences where we all became fans, I just find it incredible that people can turn it off. It never ceases to amaze me how duplicitous many are here (not you, just a general comment)

 

[BonkTastic]

I mean, the "walk on water" comment is a curious one to hold on to, and I had completely forgotten that one. Perhaps it points to a very sensitive market or one looking constantly for justification for not supporting the team. There are many, many worse ones to dig up. To say that particular moment helps derail trust is a little much in my opinion.

The "walk on water" quote doesn't exist in a vacuum, though.

There's a lot of fans who saw that as one of many underlying messages from the organization that the team was not going to spend competitively, and that we hired what was essentially the cheapest possible option for the Head Coach position almost immediately afterwards, was proof for a lot of fans.

You have to remember the context in which this all happens /happened. When that quote was made:
- we were only a few years removed from the Alfredsson departure, which was primarily motivated about money, and broken promises revolving around money.
- we were only like 2 years removed from Melnyk's failed Casino bid, which Melnyk had stated team funding would be attached to.

I mean, I think the REAL chaos, like peak Melnyk resentment, didn't start until 2017 (and whoo boy, there was a lot that year that triggered fans - the 2nd Alfredsson departure, the Cy Leeder firing, the harrassing tarps, the team that fell off the rails after the Duchene trade, and Karlsson showing the first public signs that the relationship between himself and the org was strained), but I don't think it's unreasonable to look at Melnyk's coaching comments (the "walk on water" comments) and consider them a fairly significant event in a long chain of events that leave us where we are today - I'd say they may not have been some massive catalyst for revolt at the time, but it's hard to deny that there was a good bit of foreshadowing going on when he dropped that one live on the radio.

 

[JonnyMacSen]

One of my all time favs from Melnyk was when fans were begging for a rebuild (and would of embraced it) and he told the fans to "blow themselves up". It just showed he was more interested in playoff revenue than building a contending team.