"This is a franchise player" (Luke Schenn)

[Randy Randerson]

delete

 

[Randy Randerson]

You do remember that he was key keeping the scoring going when Matthews got injured, right? GMs hoping to go far in the playoffs do not deliberately weaken their teams.

you remember that they coasted to the playoffs and lost in a first round where they did not have home ice advantage and were the underdog, right? GM's thinking that's a scenario that they're likely to push deep into the playoffs beyond should go back to the drawing board

And who replaces JVR heading into only the 3nd playoffs for the leafs in 14 years?

I don't know what this is supposed to say

 

[A1LeafNation]

I was thinking about this the other day.

I wonder what Schenn would be like if he was drafted into this management?

They would have drafted Karlsson at 7

 

[A1LeafNation]

He was just too big. Today’s NHL is all about speed. You can’t ruin genetic makeup.

Matthews is 6’2 220llbs...

 

[Boutette]

you remember that they coasted to the playoffs and lost in a first round where they did not have home ice advantage and were the underdog, right? GM's thinking that's a scenario that they're likely to push deep into the playoffs beyond should go back to the drawing board

Maybe you should stick to video games instead of the real world. I'm sure their more your speed.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

And what team make that trade with the Leafs? The answer: not one of them.

Agreed. That was one of the points in my post. I thought the “LOL” might have been a clue.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

And who replaces JVR heading into only the 3nd playoffs for the leafs in 14 years?

We didn’t go very far in the playoffs with JVR.

You do remember that he was key keeping the scoring going when Matthews got injured, right? GMs hoping to go far in the playoffs do not deliberately weaken their teams.

Meh, we moved JVR anyhow after losing in the 1st round of the playoffs twice. Some times you are forced to make moves like Chicago did moving players like Byfuglien, Ladd & Versteeg after winning the Cup. Not exactly the same situation for sure, but it demonstrates that you can keep the core together plus move other players and still win big.

 

[Boutette]

We didn’t go very far in the playoffs with JVR.

Could have been significantly worse if the leafs had traded him. Until you invent time travel, hindsight is and will remain pretty useless. Honestly, the future is more important, so maybe try thinking about that.

 

[zeke]

please close this nightmare thread.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Maybe you should stick to video games instead of the real world. I'm sure their more your speed.

The real world where cause and effect applies? Last year's playoffs played out exactly the way it was overwhelming likely to, we should have planned for the likely outcome and we're worse off today because we didn't

Could have been significantly worse if the leafs had traded him. Until you invent time travel, hindsight is and will remain pretty useless. Honestly, the future is more important, so maybe try thinking about that.

How could it have turned out worse, do you really think that the leafs weren't making the playoffs without JVR?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Could have been significantly worse if the leafs had traded him. Until you invent time travel, hindsight is and will remain pretty useless. Honestly, the future is more important, so maybe try thinking about that.

Saying the future is more important is exactly the point. You must have majored in Irony.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I don't know what this is supposed to say

He’s inadvertently making great points for the opposite arguement.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Burke made lots of questionable moves but it was Anton Stralman who messed up his future in Toronto. And Calgary and Columbus. It took getting dumped by Calgary after one training camp and being released by Columbus before Stralman got his act personal act together with the Rangers.

Schenn was just physically and emotionally precocious. He was man strong at 18 and a mature kid likable kid. I get to this day how a scout could be high on the individual but they should have read his limitations better. You can like a prospect without believing he's top of the draft good. His puck skills remain to this day super limited and his feet were no better than average and I believe actually declined from his rookie season on (chronic knee issues?).

Never fall in love with a player, especially when they haven't even played a game in the NHL.

In my opinion Burke's biggest mistake was one he didn't expect to be so harmful, trading multiple first rounders for Kessel. He didn't expect the Leafs to finish so poorly that season which gave Boston some great picks and of course, Seguin. Those picks were vital, no matter who they picked up.

Furthermore, and this is really it in a nutshell, he betrayed his own sentiment when he took over, and that was he said he would take it slow, do essentially what Shanahan has done. Now, he didn't luck out on a lottery pick called Matthews either which has been a BIG boost to this teams fortune (including probably convincing Tavares to come to T.O, due to the great talent here), but, he should have stuck to what he knew before he started the job was necessary: a slow, patient, methodical rebuild.

The trade for Kessel was do or die, you make it once you've turned the corner, the Leafs hadn't turned that corner yet. I liked the player, didn't like the price. I did, however, understand his logic, players his age with his scoring touch don't come up often. Again, see my note above, Burke knew him from the U.S team, maybe he had a bias that clouded expectations?

I always say, when a team has a shot, they have to strike when the iron is hot. Knowing when that time is there isn't easy and one team (like say the Bruins or Capitals), could ruin an otherwise dominant teams chances. It would be fun to be a GM though, wouldn't it?

 

[DanM]

The 2008 draft...urgh.

If we played our cards right, we could have drafted EK and Roman Josi (originally a traded pick I believe)

Brutal

 

[Boutette]

The real world where cause and effect applies? Last year's playoffs played out exactly the way it was overwhelming likely to, we should have planned for the likely outcome and we're worse off today because we didn't

Saying the future is more important is exactly the point. You must have majored in Irony.

There's no reason to believe that trading JVR for whatever might have been offered would make the team better today or in the future. Prospects and picks are hit and miss. Could be by givign up in that way could have made Tavares think that the team's braintrust has a congenital loser mentality like the team he wanted to leave and decided to go elsewhere because he wanted a team with a win-now mentality. So yeah, you get what you want and we don't have Tavares, how do you like those apples?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

There's no reason to believe that trading JVR for whatever might have been offered would make the team better today or in the future. Prospects and picks are hit and miss. Could be by givign up in that way could have made Tavares think that the team's braintrust has a congenital loser mentality like the team he wanted to leave and decided to go elsewhere because he wanted a team with a win-now mentality. So yeah, you get what you want and we don't have Tavares, how do you like those apples?

I really like those imaginary apples. They were rich in the essential ingredient - iron .. y. LOL.

 

[DanM]

Was the team supposed to sell JVR of last year ahead of the playoffs?
That would not have gone over too well.

No, it would have gone over horrible, and I cannot remember the last time a team sold off a huge piece before playoffs. However, I do think in the new NHL, you gotta be shrewd, and make those kind of moves, you NEED proper asset management.

I for one will be pissed if Jake walks for zero. I mean JVR, Bozie, and maybe Jake (who as a 50pt dman has great value)

We need to recoup value and futures. It will define how long we are contenders for.

Tampa and Boston have made these kind of moves, they are also perennial contenders.

 

[Randy Randerson]

There's no reason to believe that trading JVR for whatever might have been offered would make the team better today or in the future. Prospects and picks are hit and miss. Could be by givign up in that way could have made Tavares think that the team's braintrust has a congenital loser mentality like the team he wanted to leave and decided to go elsewhere because he wanted a team with a win-now mentality. So yeah, you get what you want and we don't have Tavares, how do you like those apples?

There really isn't an argument that you'd be worse off today for having the pick and prospect you would have got for JVR, unless you can think of a negative value pick and prospect. They might not turn out, but that would be zero value, not negative value, and even then they still have trade value before they bust

The rest of that post is tinfoil hat paranoia

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

It's comments like this you question Pierre McGuire's sanity. All the write ups on Luke Schenn prior to the draft seemed to suggest Luke Richardson, with *maybe* an Adam Foote upside, but somehow that translated to a generational defensive defenseman, as if that type of player actually exists because he hung out with Shea Weber.

I'll never forgot the creation of the neologism "elite shutdown defenseman" by his fanboys to try to buttress his value. He was supposedly doing special things on the ice that only people well-versed in hockey noticed, and the rest of us plebs just didn't understand. lol

Don't worry, Stephen, I remember you on the front lines of dissent from that reflexive group think. It was tough to be openly honest about Schenn's shortcomings in those early days without being attacked.

 

[Boutette]

No, it would have gone over horrible, and I cannot remember the last time a team sold off a huge piece before playoffs. However, I do think in the new NHL, you gotta be shrewd, and make those kind of moves, you NEED proper asset management.

I for one will be pissed if Jake walks for zero. I mean JVR, Bozie, and maybe Jake (who as a 50pt dman has great value)

We need to recoup value and futures. It will define how long we are contenders for.

Tampa and Boston have made these kind of moves, they are also perennial contenders.

The key to making that kind of move is dealing from a position of strength and abundance. Do you think defense is a position of strength and abundance in the Maple Leafs Squad?

 

[Boutette]

There really isn't an argument that you'd be worse off today for having the pick and prospect you would have got for JVR, unless you can think of a negative value pick and prospect. They might not turn out, but that would be zero value, not negative value, and even then they still have trade value before they bust

The rest of that post is tinfoil hat paranoia

Anything can have negative value. Do you imagine that Tavares was always coming to Toronto, that it was a done deal at the trading deadline?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

There really isn't an argument that you'd be worse off today for having the pick and prospect you would have got for JVR, unless you can think of a negative value pick and prospect. They might not turn out, but that would be zero value, not negative value, and even then they still have trade value before they bust

The rest of that post is tinfoil hat paranoia

I love this place sometimes.

 

[DanM]

The key to making that kind of move is dealing from a position of strength and abundance. Do you think defense is a position of strength and abundance in the Maple Leafs Squad?

I 100% agree, and it's not a strength and in abundance, but if he is gone, we should get something for him. We can only let so many pieces walk for nothing before we start to feel it.

 

[Boutette]

I really like those imaginary apples. They were rich in the essential ingredient - iron .. y. LOL.

They are no different than you imaginary apples. Are you really convinced that Tavares was committed to coming to Toronto as of the Trading deadline? Ever heard of the butterfly effect. One decision can radically chance the course of events from another.

 

[Lightsol]

Schenn was just physically and emotionally precocious. He was man strong at 18 and a mature kid likable kid. I get to this day how a scout could be high on the individual but they should have read his limitations better. You can like a prospect without believing he's top of the draft good. His puck skills remain to this day super limited and his feet were no better than average and I believe actually declined from his rookie season on (chronic knee issues?).

He was drafted and brought in at a time when the Leafs were in major denial about how badly they needed a rebuild, and was rushed to the NHL way too fast. Yeah, he had the size to play okay, but it was clear from the minute he was drafted that without work, he was going to be a slow-footed hitter his whole career... And the Leafs can't use the excuse "the league changed", because that was 5 years after the lockout, and it was clear to everyone else that the league was moving towards faster players. Luke Schenn would have been a great defenseman in the Ken Daneyko-Derian Hatcher clutch and grab era...

In my opinion Burke's biggest mistake was one he didn't expect to be so harmful, trading multiple first rounders for Kessel. He didn't expect the Leafs to finish so poorly that season which gave Boston some great picks and of course, Seguin. Those picks were vital, no matter who they picked up.

Have you seen some of the interviews Burke gave after he made that trade? Based on them, I suspect Burke was hoping that Kessel would turn into one of the leaders on a team that was lacking in talent (and the same with Phaneuf after he made that deal with Calgary), because Kessel took on a bit of a leadership role with the young Team USA he built a few years before. He totally read Kessel's personality wrong at that time, and it cost the Leafs more than they expected. Not that I think getting Tyler Seguin would have helped the Leafs as much as some fans think it would; he needed to be dealt by Boston to snap him out of his "party-all-night" thought process, and would have likely been worse on a Leafs team where he would have been asked to carry the offensive burden for the whole team at 18.

 

[Boutette]

I 100% agree, and it's not a strength and in abundance, but if he is gone, we should get something for him. We can only let so many pieces walk for nothing before we start to feel it.

We are getting something. Exactly what do you think a player of his caliber would cost Toronto at the deadline. That is what we would be spending if we don't have him. Getting rid of him reduces our chance at the cup this year. Is that what you want? We certainly aren't getting a better defenceman for him back that can help us win a cup now, are we? Or do you think that if the cup isn't an absolute guarantee then the team should be playing for 2020? There's always players leaving.