"This is a franchise player" (Luke Schenn)

[Obliviate]

I don't think so. Schenn was pretty sheltered, and had a good start to his career.

I think a previous poster nailed it. They focused on Schenn bulking up and adding more weight and muscle, when they should have focused on him becoming a bit more lean and working on his scouting.

It was a lack of understanding of where the game was going, and what was best for his development by that management team.

You don't think promoting an 18 year old dman to a team devoid of any talent has no bearing on this??? In Toronto, no less???

I'm not sure if you remember that season well (I do). He was overhyped (thanks Pierre) was the one glimmer of hope we had in our lineup from the fan perspective. I'll remind everyone that our three top scorers that year were Jason Blake, Alex Ponikarovsky, and Matt Stajan (Matt Stajan!!!). This is clearly not a sheltered position for a young defenceman making the jump from junior directly to the NHL. Did I mention he was 18?

Chalking it up simply to workout regiment is an dramatic oversimplification. You want to mess with a kid's head - put them in situations where they begin doubting themselves. Erosion of confidence does wonders for your game!

 

[Mr Hockey]

Schenn huge "upside" just never happened at the NHL level, he plateaued ...

 

[HoweHullOrr]

So schenn into JVR and then JVR into.....???

Cap space for Tavares!

If we trade JVR for picks, then we would have received cap space & picks, no?

 

[Obliviate]

Schenn huge "upside" just never happened at the NHL level, he plateaued ...

upside sometimes needs to be slowly developed.

 

[Morgs]

Poor skater, poor puck skills, and wasn't good defensively.

Looking back at his underlying stats, it was right in our faces too.

 

[Cor]

You don't think promoting an 18 year old dman to a team devoid of any talent has no bearing on this??? In Toronto, no less???

I'm not sure if you remember that season well (I do). He was overhyped (thanks Pierre) was the one glimmer of hope we had in our lineup from the fan perspective. I'll remind everyone that our three top scorers that year were Jason Blake, Alex Ponikarovsky, and Matt Stajan (Matt Stajan!!!). This is clearly not a sheltered position for a young defenceman making the jump from junior directly to the NHL. Did I mention he was 18?

Chalking it up simply to workout regiment is an dramatic oversimplification. You want to mess with a kid's head - put them in situations where they begin doubting themselves. Erosion of confidence does wonders for your game!

Given his quality play in his first two seasons, no I don't think it affected him. His third year is where his play started to decline (ironically despite his offensive output slightly increasing), and I don't think it is a coincidence that was the year he came into the season 25lbs heavier than he was previously.

I'm not sure what our forwards have to do with Luke Schenn being sheltered. He was on our third pairing, playing against easier competition. He had Tomas Kaberle, Pavel Kubina, Ian White & Jeff Finger as the top 4 ahead of him. Sometimes he was paired with Finger himself, Stralman, Van Ryn, or Frogren. Sheltered doesn't mean playing on a good team. Sheltered is about the role he played. He wasn't forced to play heavy minutes, and wasn't forced to face top competition.

I also think you thinking his development focus is simply a "workout regiment" is a dramatic oversimplification.

They had him bulk up, get heavier, and that made him slower, and it dramatically hurt his game. Had they focused on keeping him around that 210 mark, or even cutting a bit more, and working on his skating and foot speed, you likely have a player who remains effective. Sure, he was never going to be that Adam Foote guy, but he still very well could have been a 2nd pairing guy. Instead he's a 6/7 guy on not so good teams. It'll be interesting to see how much he plays in Anaheim.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

Remember when Jiri Tlusty was considered one of this organizations top prospects for the future? barf.

Tlusty shines for Maple Leafs in NHL debut | CBC Sports

There was one year when he came to training camp overweight or out of shape. I found out later on that Tlusty means Thick/Fat/Out of shape in Czech

 

[Cor]

There was one year when he came to training camp overweight or out of shape. I found out later on that Tlusty means Thick/Fat/Out of shape in Czech

Worst thing about Tlusty is that our management team wanted Bryan Little. He went a pick before to Atlanta.

Michael Grabner, Chris Stewart, Claude Giroux, Semyon Varlamov, Patrik Berglund, and Nick Foligno were the guys who went between 14-30 that would have been better picks than Tlusty.

 

[Obliviate]

Given his quality play in his first two seasons, no I don't think it affected him. His third year is where his play started to decline (ironically despite his offensive output slightly increasing), and I don't think it is a coincidence that was the year he came into the season 25lbs heavier than he was previously.

I'm not sure what our forwards have to do with Luke Schenn being sheltered. He was on our third pairing, playing against easier competition. He had Tomas Kaberle, Pavel Kubina, Ian White & Jeff Finger as the top 4 ahead of him. Sometimes he was paired with Finger himself, Stralman, Van Ryn, or Frogren. Sheltered doesn't mean playing on a good team. Sheltered is about the role he played. He wasn't forced to play heavy minutes, and wasn't forced to face top competition.

I also think you thinking his development focus is simply a "workout regiment" is a dramatic oversimplification.

They had him bulk up, get heavier, and that made him slower, and it dramatically hurt his game. Had they focused on keeping him around that 210 mark, or even cutting a bit more, and working on his skating and foot speed, you likely have a player who remains effective. Sure, he was never going to be that Adam Foote guy, but he still very well could have been a 2nd pairing guy. Instead he's a 6/7 guy on not so good teams. It'll be interesting to see how much he plays in Anaheim.

His quality of play is overstated. He was playing on a garbage team. Relative analysis works in his favour.

I have no doubt that bulking up played a part, but it's one factor of many.

Let's look at his draft cohort:

Doughty - one of two of the best dmen from this draft. Played right away, but I consider him an outlier. Very few players can handle the transition the way he has.

Bogosian - Bogo was a beast in junior. Walked right onto a garbage Atlanta team and played ok given his situation. Following that he failed to thrive and never fulfilled his potential.

Schenn - already documented

Pietroangelo - Had cups of coffee in two separate NHL campaigns, but returned to play meaningful minutes in lower leagues. Did not enter the NHL until two years following his draft year. Is now a high-end dman in this league.

Tyler Myers - Enormous player with shocking speed for his size. Mediocre offensive numbers during his draft year. Returned to the W, had a career year. Stepped into the NHL and scored 40pts his rookie season.

Eric Karlsson - Returned to Europe to play. Also saw some time in Bingo. Rest is history.

Jake Gardiner, and John Carlson both returned to play in lower levels of hockey and both spent a good stretch of time playing minor pro game.

So with the exception of Doughty, I showed examples of two highly thought of defenders who were rushed into the league into sub-optimal situations before they were ready. Both have had underwhelming careers relative to their draft standings.

Coincidence? I think not...

 

[Battle Lin]

the value for toughness was a lot higher those days though

 

[moon111]

Polak wasn't effective at anything.

Name another Leaf who crushed the opposition in front of the Leaf's net better? Since his first game with
the Leafs, there's been 28 defensemen lace up for the Leafs. Out of those, he has the 10 highest +/-,
and only half of those players ahead of him have played more then 40 games. In his time with the Leafs, he
was on for almost 200 more penalty-killing minutes then any other Leaf blueliner. He had the 3rd most
Takeaways for Leaf blueliners. He threw 2.5 more hits then any other Leaf blueliner did in his time with
the Leafs. Most blocked shots. He even won 2/3rds of the face-offs he took! The fact is, in many
regards, Polak was the BEST Leaf's blueliner. Unfortunately he lacked most traits for creating offense
and favorable fan opinions. But there were many situations, he was Babcock's #1 go-to guy and for good
reason.

 

[Slyfox]

Name another Leaf who crushed the opposition in front of the Leaf's net better? Since his first game with
the Leafs, there's been 28 defensemen lace up for the Leafs. Out of those, he has the 10 highest +/-,
and only half of those players ahead of him have played more then 40 games. In his time with the Leafs, he
was on for almost 200 more penalty-killing minutes then any other Leaf blueliner. He had the 3rd most
Takeaways for Leaf blueliners. He threw 2.5 more hits then any other Leaf blueliner did in his time with
the Leafs. Most blocked shots. He even won 2/3rds of the face-offs he took! The fact is, in many
regards, Polak was the BEST Leaf's blueliner. Unfortunately he lacked most traits for creating offense
and favorable fan opinions. But there were many situations, he was Babcock's #1 go-to guy and for good
reason.

Ok cool. Now explain why he is still a UFA then?

 

[Obliviate]

Ok cool. Now explain why he is still a UFA then?

he's not. signed by Dallas.

 

[Cor]

His quality of play is overstated. He was playing on a garbage team. Relative analysis works in his favour.

I have no doubt that bulking up played a part, but it's one factor of many.

Let's look at his draft cohort:

Doughty - one of two of the best dmen from this draft. Played right away, but I consider him an outlier. Very few players can handle the transition the way he has.

Bogosian - Bogo was a beast in junior. Walked right onto a garbage Atlanta team and played ok given his situation. Following that he failed to thrive and never fulfilled his potential.

Schenn - already documented

Pietroangelo - Had cups of coffee in two separate NHL campaigns, but returned to play meaningful minutes in lower leagues. Did not enter the NHL until two years following his draft year. Is now a high-end dman in this league.

Tyler Myers - Enormous player with shocking speed for his size. Mediocre offensive numbers during his draft year. Returned to the W, had a career year. Stepped into the NHL and scored 40pts his rookie season.

Eric Karlsson - Returned to Europe to play. Also saw some time in Bingo. Rest is history.

Jake Gardiner, and John Carlson both returned to play in lower levels of hockey and both spent a good stretch of time playing minor pro game.

So with the exception of Doughty, I showed examples of two highly thought of defenders who were rushed into the league into sub-optimal situations before they were ready. Both have had underwhelming careers relative to their draft standings.

Coincidence? I think not...

Actually, I think it is a coincidence.

Both guys were similar defenders who had NHL size. Both teams decided to focus the development on adding even more size, which decreased their speed even more, when the focus should have been on increasing that speed and skating ability.

Whether they were playing in the CHL or NHL is irrelevant, because their development focus went directly against what the game was turning into.

I'm not going to argue that keeping Luke Schenn in the NHL was neccesarily the correct decision, but acting like Luke Schenn would have reached his potential had he played in the WHL an extra year or two spits directly in the face of what goes into player development.

You also need to remember that Luke Schenn was one of the oldest players in his draft. He would have been in the 2007 draft he was born 1.5 months earlier. Luke Schenn had an extrea year in the WHL prior to the draft than an Alex Pietrangelo. That plays a factor as well.

Alex Pietrangelo is also an incredibly different situation due to the circumstances. He made the roster in 2008, and after getting checked head first into the boards by Ryan Hollweg, he missed some time, came back, and played the last 4 trial games before St Louis decided to send him back to the OHL for the last half of the season. The next season, he was on the Blues roster until December, sent him to the World Juniors, and when his rights were traded to Barrie, a contender at that time, they sent him back in January.


Ultimatley, both his development focus, and development location would have been factors in his lack of development/regression. No use arguing who is more right

 

[Menzinger]

He statement was just a piece of bad analysis from McGuire - and a great example at how horrible some folks/teams can be at scouting.

Schenectady was what prototypical D man for how folks used to view the position - ie that aggression and physicality was all you needed rather than also including things like skating, hockey iq, puck skills.

Never bought the idea that the Leafs screwed up his development (though they clearly didn’t help) he was a low ceiling guy who busted like most prospects tend to do

 

[Obliviate]

Whether they were playing in the CHL or NHL is irrelevant, because their development focus went directly against what the game was turning into.

I obviously disagree with this statement. It makes a huge difference depending on the player. This also leaves me with the impression that you don't feel player confidence has any impact on overall success. This is hardly quantifiable, but anecdotally we all know it to be true.

Anywho... agree to disagree. I doubt we will come to agreement on this.

 

[Cor]

I obviously disagree with this statement. It makes a huge difference depending on the player. This also leaves me with the impression that you don't feel player confidence has any impact on overall success. This is hardly quantifiable, but anecdotally we all know it to be true.

I never said player confidence has no impact. That is you imagining arguments. However, Luke Schenn playing well in the NHL would give him as much confidence, if not more, than playing well in the WHL.

As I said, and I assume you ignored, both the Development Location, and the Development Focus would have an affect on any players development.

I feel the Focus had more of an affect than the location, and you feel the opposite.

At the end of the day, both had an affect, so again, there is no use debating or arguing who is more correct.

 

[Obliviate]

He statement was just a piece of bad analysis from McGuire - and a great example at how horrible some folks/teams can be at scouting.

Schenectady was what prototypical D man for how folks used to view the position - ie that aggression and physicality was all you needed rather than also including things like skating, hockey iq, puck skills.

Never bought the idea that the Leafs screwed up his development (though they clearly didn’t help) he was a low ceiling guy who busted like most prospects tend to do

McGuire is parroting the opinions of many scouts he would have undoubtedly talked to.

 

[FlareKnight]

Polak wasn't effective at anything.

No one can ice the puck like Polak.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I remember when people were called “trolls” on this forum for even questioning if Schenn and then Reilly were actually going to be franchise players.

 

[rent free]

So schenn into JVR and then JVR into.....???

nothing. no picks, no prospects, nothing.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Name another Leaf who crushed the opposition in front of the Leaf's net better? Since his first game with
the Leafs, there's been 28 defensemen lace up for the Leafs. Out of those, he has the 10 highest +/-,
and only half of those players ahead of him have played more then 40 games. In his time with the Leafs, he
was on for almost 200 more penalty-killing minutes then any other Leaf blueliner. He had the 3rd most
Takeaways for Leaf blueliners. He threw 2.5 more hits then any other Leaf blueliner did in his time with
the Leafs. Most blocked shots. He even won 2/3rds of the face-offs he took! The fact is, in many
regards, Polak was the BEST Leaf's blueliner. Unfortunately he lacked most traits for creating offense
and favorable fan opinions. But there were many situations, he was Babcock's #1 go-to guy and for good
reason.

He could crush people but he was too slow and too dumb to be at the right place to crush someone in the first place.

 

[Menzinger]

He could crush people but he was too slow and too dumb to be at the right place to crush someone in the first place.

The classic Schenn move too was him laying down a big hit, but then being totally out of position allowing the other team to have a prime scoring opportunity

 

[member 262271]

So long ago. I liked Schenn, but combined with the weight gain and the general "Toronto defenseman needs to do everything," silliness did him in in Toronto. Still crazy to think JVR was the return, even now. Still, good for him, he's still in league.

 

[TheProspector]

Luke Schenn excelled in juniors because he went through puberty earlier. Pretty simple. Once he played against men, he no longer had the man-child advantage, and he hadn't developed techniques for coping against mature competition.

For a perfect counter-example, look at Marner, who has been the smallest guy on every team for his whole life. You could bet he was going to be able to translate his skills to the NHL because he already had been playing against bigger, faster, and stronger competition all of his life.