"This is a franchise player" (Luke Schenn)

Randy Randerson

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Jul 28, 2016
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Anything can have negative value. Do you imagine that Tavares was always coming to Toronto, that it was a done deal at the trading deadline?
Can you give me an example of a recently drafted prospect or an upcoming draft pick that have tangibly negative value?

I think that Tavares knew Toronto was on his radar at the deadline, he's a notably rational and thorough individual, and I don't see a rational individual putting much stock in the organizations decision to keep a guy as a rental who was off the team before he got there. It's a given that the team is willing to do anything within the rules to win, no team in professional sports doesn't want to win, so having more assets to trade and develop is a positive thing for a rational individual, unless of course you can give me some examples of negative value picks and prospects
 

Boutette

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Sep 28, 2017
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Can you give me an example of a recently drafted prospect or an upcoming draft pick that have tangibly negative value?

I think that Tavares knew Toronto was on his radar at the deadline, he's a notably rational and thorough individual, and I don't see a rational individual putting much stock in the organizations decision to keep a guy as a rental who was off the team before he got there. It's a given that the team is willing to do anything within the rules to win, no team in professional sports doesn't want to win, so having more assets to trade and develop is a positive thing for a rational individual, unless of course you can give me some examples of negative value picks and prospects

Teams have wasted plenty of resources on players who went nowhere. Just look at the leafs and a lot of their 1st rounders. And plenty of players who've been ignored go elsewhere and lots of them succeed. The league is filled with them. As for Tavares, again, he could have easily decided to go elsewhere, perhaps to a team whose management didn't give up the quest for the cup on the TDL and punt their #2 goal scorer for futures, because they could do the same thing this year, and next year and so on, and I'm sure he's sick of that.
 

Randy Randerson

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Teams have wasted plenty of resources on players who went nowhere. Just look at the leafs and a lot of their 1st rounders. And plenty of players who've been ignored go elsewhere and lots of them succeed. The league is filled with them.
Again, draft busts are zero value, not negative value. Zero value is equal to the amount that we're currently getting from JVR. So, can you give an example of a negative value pick or prospect? Otherwise you would want to have that pick and prospect of given the choice
 

Boutette

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Again, draft busts are zero value, not negative value. Zero value is equal to the amount that we're currently getting from JVR. So, can you give an example of a negative value pick or prospect? Otherwise you would want to have that pick and prospect of given the choice

You clearly see zero value as the bottom. I see zero value as the median. So when a team makes bad picks for years, the development system wastes resources and roster spots on players who don't make the team better, but ultimately make it worse (see the Burke era for players like Biggs and Percy and Finn who dragged the team as an overall organization down) then yes, prospects and picks can have negative value from my perspective.
 

Randy Randerson

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You clearly see zero value as the bottom. I see zero value as the median. So when a team makes bad picks for years, the development system wastes resources and roster spots on players who don't make the team better, but ultimately make it worse (see the Burke era for players like Biggs and Percy and Finn who dragged the team as an overall organization down) then yes, prospects and picks can have negative value from my perspective.
Biggs, Percy, Finn, Blacker etc did nothing for the organization, but they also didn't do anything to hurt it, unless you consider wasting draft picks a negative, which would be acknowledging positive value of draft picks. Also all of those guys had trade value after their draft and before the bust label was applied

Again, one example of a negative value prospect or pick would be great
 

Boutette

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Biggs, Percy, Finn, Blacker etc did nothing for the organization, but they also didn't do anything to hurt it, unless you consider wasting draft picks a negative, which would be acknowledging positive value of draft picks. Also all of those guys had trade value after their draft and before the bust label was applied

Again, one example of a negative value prospect or pick would be great

Since you clearly don't have the brain power to undersand what I'm saying, or have even bothered to read what I wrote, what is the point?
 

Randy Randerson

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Jul 28, 2016
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Since you clearly don't have the brain power to undersand what I'm saying, or have even bothered to read what I wrote, what is the point?
let's analyze what you said:
zero value is a "median" result for prospects - this seems like a super wacky position, so I'd like to see that explained in more depth. If your rationale is that they didn't help the team win, doesn't that also mean that any player who played for the team during a time when it didn't win is a zero/negative value asset, that would also lump in JVR? And wouldn't that mean that you need the benefit of hindsight to know if they fell into this category, which you don't get with current prospects because they haven't turned out or busted yet?

the development system wastes "resources" on prospects that don't turn out - what resources: draft picks (which again, would be acknowledging that draft picks have positive value, which obviously is true but for some reason isn't your position), financial/coaching/etc (this would assume those resources are more limited than the team's prospect pool, and I've never heard of a Leaf prospect being neglected by coaching staff...have you?)

the development system wastes "roster spots" 0n these players - well, the stated basis of Babcock's system is a meritocracy where a player needs to earn his time, so this probably doesn't hold water. I don't actually think that Babcock runs a true meritocracy, but he isn't putting players in who haven't earned their way up. Percy earned his way to the big club, and if you're worried about spending 12 total games in an era where the team is awful anyway on finding out if a prospect can cut it and help the team, you're really going to hate the coming years as RFA's are replaced with ELC's when the team needs reinforcements....how can we put those ELC's in an NHL lineup when we don't know if they can cut it, a bit of a paradox you've designed there. And with the other examples of Biggs and Finn, who combined for zero NHL games played and not even significant roles on the Marlies, are those really roster spots that you value in this equation?

now, you can respond to all that, or you can answer this (to yourself) - would the organization have noticed a difference in outcomes if they had just sacrificed the picks used on Biggs, Percy and Finn rather than drafting them at all? If the answer is no, then they were zero value assets and not negative value assets. And these were the worst case scenario, Biggs might be the worst draft pick in Leafs history factoring in the value of the pick he was taken with, so if these are zero value assets then there isn't negative value assets in the recently drafted prospect realm

I also wouldn't be criticizing anyone else's processing capacity if I were in your spot here
 
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Boutette

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Sep 28, 2017
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let's analyze what you said:
zero value is a "median" result for prospects - this seems like a super wacky position, so I'd like to see that explained in more depth. If your rationale is that they didn't help the team win, doesn't that also mean that any player who played for the team during a time when it didn't win is a zero/negative value asset, that would also lump in JVR? And wouldn't that mean that you need the benefit of hindsight to know if they fell into this category, which you don't get with current prospects because they haven't turned out or busted yet?

the development system wastes "resources" on prospects that don't turn out - what resources: draft picks (which again, would be acknowledging that draft picks have positive value, which obviously is true but for some reason isn't your position), financial/coaching/etc (this would assume those resources are more limited than the team's prospect pool, and I've never heard of a Leaf prospect being neglected by coaching staff...have you?)

the development system wastes "roster spots" 0n these players - well, the stated basis of Babcock's system is a meritocracy where a player needs to earn his time, so this probably doesn't hold water. I don't actually think that Babcock runs a true meritocracy, but he isn't putting players in who haven't earned their way up. Percy earned his way to the big club, and if you're worried about spending 12 total games in an era where the team is awful anyway on finding out if a prospect can cut it and help the team, you're really going to hate the coming years as RFA's are replaced with ELC's when the team needs reinforcements....how can we put those ELC's in an NHL lineup when we don't know if they can cut it, a bit of a paradox you've designed there. And with the other examples of Biggs and Finn, who combined for zero NHL games played and not even significant roles on the Marlies, are those really roster spots that you value in this equation?

now, you can respond to all that, or you can answer this (to yourself) - would the organization have noticed a difference in outcomes if they had just sacrificed the picks used on Biggs, Percy and Finn rather than drafting them at all? If the answer is no, then they were zero value assets and not negative value assets. And these were the worst case scenario, Biggs might be the worst draft pick in Leafs history factoring in the value of the pick he was taken with, so if these are zero value assets then there isn't negative value assets in the recently drafted prospect realm

I also wouldn't be criticizing anyone else's processing capacity if I were in your spot here

Congratulations, you've gone plaid.
 
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HoweHullOrr

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Oct 3, 2013
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Can you give me an example of a recently drafted prospect or an upcoming draft pick that have tangibly negative value?

I think that Tavares knew Toronto was on his radar at the deadline, he's a notably rational and thorough individual, and I don't see a rational individual putting much stock in the organizations decision to keep a guy as a rental who was off the team before he got there. It's a given that the team is willing to do anything within the rules to win, no team in professional sports doesn't want to win, so having more assets to trade and develop is a positive thing for a rational individual, unless of course you can give me some examples of negative value picks and prospects

I agree Randy. Tavares knew that JVR was going to be cut loose. Hell, even half of the posters here knew that. It obviously didn’t effect his decision in the slightest. I think we both know who is grasping at straws here. Time for us dullards to move on I guess.
:help: :(
 

Randy Randerson

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Jul 28, 2016
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Hamilton
I agree Randy. Tavares knew that JVR was going to be cut loose. Hell, even half of the posters here knew that. It obviously didn’t effect his decision in the slightest. I think we both know who is grasping at straws here. Time for us dullards to move on I guess.
:help: :(
That was definitely a case of "my mind is made up, now I just need to fabricate some evidence that I'm right"
 
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Byron Bitz

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Apr 6, 2010
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Ironic that the player Luke Schenn was expected to become is exactly what we need right now. Even what was thought to be the lower end of his potential (solid #4 shut down RD) we could really use.
 

Longshot

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Jul 2, 2008
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Ontario, Canada
All these years later and I still can't fathom why the Leafs rushed Schenn to the NHL. The organization was utterly bereft of talent at the time. It didn't appear to have any sort of direction other than: "We're going to try and get the 8th seed in the playoffs."

I have no idea if sending him back to junior for another year or two would have positively impacted his long-term development, but I don't believe it would have hurt his development.
 

jboknows

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Feb 9, 2010
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let's analyze what you said:
zero value is a "median" result for prospects - this seems like a super wacky position, so I'd like to see that explained in more depth. If your rationale is that they didn't help the team win, doesn't that also mean that any player who played for the team during a time when it didn't win is a zero/negative value asset, that would also lump in JVR? And wouldn't that mean that you need the benefit of hindsight to know if they fell into this category, which you don't get with current prospects because they haven't turned out or busted yet?

the development system wastes "resources" on prospects that don't turn out - what resources: draft picks (which again, would be acknowledging that draft picks have positive value, which obviously is true but for some reason isn't your position), financial/coaching/etc (this would assume those resources are more limited than the team's prospect pool, and I've never heard of a Leaf prospect being neglected by coaching staff...have you?)

the development system wastes "roster spots" 0n these players - well, the stated basis of Babcock's system is a meritocracy where a player needs to earn his time, so this probably doesn't hold water. I don't actually think that Babcock runs a true meritocracy, but he isn't putting players in who haven't earned their way up. Percy earned his way to the big club, and if you're worried about spending 12 total games in an era where the team is awful anyway on finding out if a prospect can cut it and help the team, you're really going to hate the coming years as RFA's are replaced with ELC's when the team needs reinforcements....how can we put those ELC's in an NHL lineup when we don't know if they can cut it, a bit of a paradox you've designed there. And with the other examples of Biggs and Finn, who combined for zero NHL games played and not even significant roles on the Marlies, are those really roster spots that you value in this equation?

now, you can respond to all that, or you can answer this (to yourself) - would the organization have noticed a difference in outcomes if they had just sacrificed the picks used on Biggs, Percy and Finn rather than drafting them at all? If the answer is no, then they were zero value assets and not negative value assets. And these were the worst case scenario, Biggs might be the worst draft pick in Leafs history factoring in the value of the pick he was taken with, so if these are zero value assets then there isn't negative value assets in the recently drafted prospect realm

I also wouldn't be criticizing anyone else's processing capacity if I were in your spot here

Good post. You put some thought into it, so I thought it warranted a response from someone. For the most part I agree with you, but something to consider:

"Would the organization have noticed a difference in outcomes if they just sacrificed the picks used on Biggs, Percy and Finn...?" When doing an analysis like this, I think you need to consider opportunity cost rather than a simple "we'd be in the same position". At the extreme, the opportunity cost is the best available player that was not drafted and therefore most teams fail in maximizing the value of their picks in this scenario. Without going to that extreme though, I think a reasonable case can be made that if there are a number of better players available and you select someone that is inferior (if I recall correctly there were a lot of people questioning Burke's moves), then yes, these picks could be seen as having a negative value, but that is dependent on how you define value. I think you must also consider the cost of the other asset traded to move up to make those selections (I can't recall if it was Biggs or Percy, but I recall giving up future draft picks to select him).

If we are talking absolute value, then a player likely does not have true absolute negative value (unless say he did something like Danny Heatly, in which case he cost your team a valued resource and therefore must have negative value). Note: not trying to be insincere here, that was truly tragic, but it is one example where I think we all must conclude that the draft selection had negative value to the Thrashers organization. You can look at less extreme examples like Patrick Kane, Ryan O'Reilly, Evander Kane, etc. and weigh their productivity in the NHL versus the harm they have done to their organizations, community, teammates, etc., but overall I tend to agree that from an absolute perspective it would be rare to have someone have negative absolute value.

From a relative perspective, which is what I think the other poster is really focused on, then you can easily conclude that a player has negative relative value. For instance, imagine Buffalo selected Rasmus Sandin instead of Rasmus Dahlin. On the absolute scale, both players will likely contribute and be productive in the NHL. On the relative scale though, Rasmus Sandin is negative value because he will be worse than Dahlin and therefore was a waste of a resource (draft pick) that should have been better utilized.

I would also say that despite even the best effort to be a meritocracy, there are almost always going to be failures. For whatever the reason coaches have their favourites and if playing a favourite results in overlooking a player in your organization with far more upside, then an argument could be made that you are expending resources (ice time, opportunities, etc.) on a mediocre asset at the cost of not developing the better asset. (I think this is where the other poster had some concern). This would be negative value from my perspective too and Kappy kind of fits the bill. The greatest part of Nylander not signing for so long was that it opened a spot for someone that I feared was starting to be overlooked in the organization and was possibly at risk of being relegated to a role lower than his skillset would permit.

Anyway, don't feel obligated to respond... just thought you might appreciate a slightly different perspective on things.
 

member 157595

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All these years later and I still can't fathom why the Leafs rushed Schenn to the NHL. The organization was utterly bereft of talent at the time. It didn't appear to have any sort of direction other than: "We're going to try and get the 8th seed in the playoffs."

I have no idea if sending him back to junior for another year or two would have positively impacted his long-term development, but I don't believe it would have hurt his development.

I remember that moron Wilson saying "he's up here to learn to play defense" or something.

No, he should have sent down to work on his skating and puck skills, you shit for brains.
 

Randy Randerson

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Jul 28, 2016
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Hamilton
Good post. You put some thought into it, so I thought it warranted a response from someone. For the most part I agree with you, but something to consider:

"Would the organization have noticed a difference in outcomes if they just sacrificed the picks used on Biggs, Percy and Finn...?" When doing an analysis like this, I think you need to consider opportunity cost rather than a simple "we'd be in the same position". At the extreme, the opportunity cost is the best available player that was not drafted and therefore most teams fail in maximizing the value of their picks in this scenario. Without going to that extreme though, I think a reasonable case can be made that if there are a number of better players available and you select someone that is inferior (if I recall correctly there were a lot of people questioning Burke's moves), then yes, these picks could be seen as having a negative value, but that is dependent on how you define value. I think you must also consider the cost of the other asset traded to move up to make those selections (I can't recall if it was Biggs or Percy, but I recall giving up future draft picks to select him).

If we are talking absolute value, then a player likely does not have true absolute negative value (unless say he did something like Danny Heatly, in which case he cost your team a valued resource and therefore must have negative value). Note: not trying to be insincere here, that was truly tragic, but it is one example where I think we all must conclude that the draft selection had negative value to the Thrashers organization. You can look at less extreme examples like Patrick Kane, Ryan O'Reilly, Evander Kane, etc. and weigh their productivity in the NHL versus the harm they have done to their organizations, community, teammates, etc., but overall I tend to agree that from an absolute perspective it would be rare to have someone have negative absolute value.

From a relative perspective, which is what I think the other poster is really focused on, then you can easily conclude that a player has negative relative value. For instance, imagine Buffalo selected Rasmus Sandin instead of Rasmus Dahlin. On the absolute scale, both players will likely contribute and be productive in the NHL. On the relative scale though, Rasmus Sandin is negative value because he will be worse than Dahlin and therefore was a waste of a resource (draft pick) that should have been better utilized.

I would also say that despite even the best effort to be a meritocracy, there are almost always going to be failures. For whatever the reason coaches have their favourites and if playing a favourite results in overlooking a player in your organization with far more upside, then an argument could be made that you are expending resources (ice time, opportunities, etc.) on a mediocre asset at the cost of not developing the better asset. (I think this is where the other poster had some concern). This would be negative value from my perspective too and Kappy kind of fits the bill. The greatest part of Nylander not signing for so long was that it opened a spot for someone that I feared was starting to be overlooked in the organization and was possibly at risk of being relegated to a role lower than his skillset would permit.

Anyway, don't feel obligated to respond... just thought you might appreciate a slightly different perspective on things.
I agree on the opportunity cost, but the premise was that a return in futures for JVR was of no value - ie. we would be indifferent to having an extra B+ prospect and mid-late 1st round pick, so there really wouldn't be an opportunity cost there as those would be additional opportunities rather than ones that would cannibalize your existing opportunity. The guy that I was arguing with was genuinely trying to make a case that the average value of picks and prospects is null, and that he wouldn't take a 1st+Grundstrom level prospect for free with a JVR trade with the hindsight that his presence didn't affect our fate at all. I think he realized how dumb of a position that was and just decided to try to spin some nonsense rather than admitting he was wrong.

Ironically he has now started a thread on trading Tyler Ennis for a 2nd rounder, so apparently he's changed his mind

I also agree that there are some extreme cases where players have negative value, mostly having to do with albatross contracts. The context here was exclusively recently drafted prospects and draft picks, and there still may be a case where if someone said "you can have this guy for free" that you wouldn't take them, like someone who got an ELC that looks like a bust in their D+2ish year for example that you wouldn't want to waste a contract on, but I think that's an extreme rarity

I think Babcock very much speaks out of both sides of his mouth regarding meritocracy, and his teams are among the furthest from that in the league (ie. Why in gods name is Hyman still in a top 6 role, and Josh Leivo is scoring on a 30 goal pace as a possession monster while finally getting that kind of opportunity for someone else?). But with that said, everyone on this roster deserves an NHL job, so while the slotting of individuals to roles in the system isn't truly meritocratic, they all got to the roster that way
 

tmlms13

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Apr 11, 2012
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Waterloo, Ontario
We should trade Morgan rielly for Luke Schenn, according to all the armchair GMs here we need more big tough guys take the next step. Reilly is too soft to be successful in the playoffs.

Luke and his 2/11 playoff seasons should work nicely.
 

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