This franchise is an absolute mess right now

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,245
35,429
Rochester, NY
Redmond, a mid-season acquisition, I had the pleasure of watching in-person. Murray never dealt with that.

What?

Botts traded D-Lo for Redmond on Oct 4, 2017 (aka opening night). Redmond was immediately assigned to Rochester.

Redmond played a grand total of 3 games for the Sabres last year while D-Lo played 58 games for Montreal and had his best G/GP and Pts/GP season of his career.
 

SnuggaRUDE

Registered User
Apr 5, 2013
9,095
6,639
Why is it fair for Housley defenders to do the same thing with Nolan, Josefsson and Tennyson?

Am I missing something here?

Who said it wasn't? Pick one year of bad players Byslma had, and compare them to one year of bad Housley players.
 

jc17

Registered User
Jun 14, 2013
11,035
7,765
You were able to take an entire post and skew some numbers to better your argument and make a couple strawman arguments over who played last season when i clearly said all on the team at some point or the other meaning under Bylsma's watch.

Thanks tho for throwing Botterill under the bus which I love. Management couldnt add better players than the ones I listed and made due with Nolan, Josefsson and Bealieau which isn't moving forward much.

Also Falk played under Bylsma as well.
Lol, what's the strawman? I didn't skew anything.

You listed 8 players Dan supposedly had success with, despite the fact that only 3 of them played significant minutes under Dan his last year.

Yes, you said "on the team at some point" but again that doesn't help your argument. Saying Dan had to deal with Meszaros and other guys that played on tank teams doesn't really make Dan look better because they still finished last.
 

Sabre the Win

Joke of a Franchise
Jun 27, 2013
12,303
4,975
Lol, what's the strawman? I didn't skew anything.

You listed 8 players Dan supposedly had success with, despite the fact that only 3 of them played significant minutes under Dan his last year.

Yes, you said "on the team at some point" but again that doesn't help your argument. Saying Dan had to deal with Meszaros and other guys that played on tank teams doesn't really make Dan look better because they still finished last.
They still finished with more points than Housley every season with Dan regardless of where they sat in the league/division.

So yes that makes Dan look better.

Try again.
 

Icicle

Think big
Oct 16, 2005
6,055
1,007
What?

Botts traded D-Lo for Redmond on Oct 4, 2017 (aka opening night). Redmond was immediately assigned to Rochester.

Redmond played a grand total of 3 games for the Sabres last year while D-Lo played 58 games for Montreal and had his best G/GP and Pts/GP season of his career.
I like when you make points for me-- like how D-lo played better elsewhere than he ever did under Bylsma, or that Redmond even had to play games-- the team had to dig even deeper for bodies to fill minutes because all the injuries coincided.
 

Duddy

Everyday is
Dec 24, 2005
12,049
1,371
Wait. Are you arguing keeping ROR would have made us a Cup contender this coming season?
No, just saying that being a contender right now would be much better than where we are. Acting like we're in the best position ever while still being horrible, is silly.
 

jc17

Registered User
Jun 14, 2013
11,035
7,765
They still finished with more points than Housley every season with Dan regardless of where they sat in the league/division.

So yes that makes Dan look better.

Fair enough. just don't put a ton of weight into "my last place finish was better than your last place finish".

People have hated whoever has been coaching this team for the past 8 years. If Dan was still coaching I have no doubt people would be calling for his head saying that his boring style wasn't adequately giving our skilled players a chance to be successful.
 

Sabre the Win

Joke of a Franchise
Jun 27, 2013
12,303
4,975
I like when you make points for me-- like how D-lo played better elsewhere than he ever did under Bylsma
That helps me greatly. Bylsma got more out of the team with less. I guess every serviceable player according to you wasnt roses and peaches for Bylsma.
 

Dreakon13

Registered User
Jun 28, 2010
4,286
1,319
Mighty Taco, NY
In order for you to defend Housley you have to in directly trash Botterill and to protect Botterill you have to indirectly trash Housley.
Which is why blaming the GM/coach tandem is basically the easiest cop out answer possible for any bad team. It's never technically wrong. Especially if you ignore context... ie. Botteril had half an offseason, expansion draft and a limited FA pool to turn over half the team, which had about equal chance of working out or not working out. Of course, even the best players on the team were already largely disgruntled from the seasons prior so what were the odds of it working out really.

But... the players are bad, Botts picked the players, therefore Botts is bad. Easy peasy. Let's wait until August, cut Botts loose, give the new GM a month to fix the team, then blame him for all of lifes problems.
 
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Sabre the Win

Joke of a Franchise
Jun 27, 2013
12,303
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Fair enough. just don't put a ton of weight into "my last place finish was better than your last place finish".

People have hated whoever has been coaching this team for the past 8 years. If Dan was still coaching I have no doubt people would be calling for his head saying that his boring style wasn't adequately giving our skilled players a chance to be successful.
I dont disagree with that. I am glad Bylsma is gone, I just wish we went elsewhere when shopping for a head coach than Housley.

I dont think either of these coaches are the answer to getting the Sabres out of the basement in the east.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,245
35,429
Rochester, NY
I like when you make points for me-- like how D-lo played better elsewhere than he ever did under Bylsma, or that Redmond even had to play games-- the team had to dig even deeper for bodies to fill minutes because all the injuries coincided.

Brady Austin played 5 games and Erik Burgdoerfer played 2 games the prior season and Taylor Fedun played 27 games in 2016-17 compared to only 7 games last season.

Losing 38 games from Bogosian between 2016-17 and 2017-18 is the biggest injury issue that the team had to deal with last season. Those games went to guys like Antipin and Nelson and not Redmond.
 

Icicle

Think big
Oct 16, 2005
6,055
1,007
That helps me greatly. Bylsma got more out of the team with less. I guess every serviceable player according to you wasnt roses and peaches for Bylsma.
Housley had Nolan.. Are you arguing that Des was a better player than Nolan because they had near equal outputs?
 

jc17

Registered User
Jun 14, 2013
11,035
7,765
I dont disagree with that. I am glad Bylsma is gone, I just wish we went elsewhere when shopping for a head coach than Housley.

I dont think either of these coaches are the answer to getting the Sabres out of the basement in the east.

A big part of me defending Housley is because I think it's really difficult to evaluate coaches. In any sport, but especially hockey, head coaches have such sporadic results from team to team I have a hard time putting a lot of blame on them.

There's a reason why guys who win the Jack Adams are canned not long after. People try to analyze coaches with the eye-test, with stats, and with whatever other methods and its usually inconclusive. I would argue that over half of the teams' fanbases dislike their coach. People in Buffalo ranted about how Ruff "stifled offensive talent" and celebrated when he was fired.

Honestly Housley could be a terrible coach, but I'm ready to see another year before jumping down his throat. And I understand, a year or 2 is a long time to wait.
 

Sabre the Win

Joke of a Franchise
Jun 27, 2013
12,303
4,975
Housley had Nolan.. Are you arguing that Des was a better player than Nolan because they had near equal outputs?
He didn't have to play him as much as he did. Also singling out one player as the downfall to Housleys season isnt helping you at all.

Bylsma had just as many downfalls on the roster and still finished with more points.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

Guilty of Being Right
Mar 1, 2008
18,243
1,847
Upstate NY
Which is why blaming the GM/coach tandem is basically the easiest cop out answer possible for any bad team. It's never technically wrong. Especially if you ignore context... ie. Botteril had half an offseason, expansion draft and a limited FA pool to turn over half the team, which had about equal chance of working out or not working out. Of course, even the best players on the team already largely disgruntled from the seasons prior so what were the odds of it working out really.

But... the players are bad, Botts picked the players, therefore Botts is bad. Easy peasy. Let's wait until August, cut Botts loose, give the new GM a month to fix the team, then blame him for all of life's problems.
Botterill’s process for his first offseason was inarguably bad. He didn’t realize he had severely compromised his forward depth, and his communication with Housley was so bad that neither realized none of the team’s defensemen could play their new system. They also put needless barriers in front of in-house upgrades in the name of “development,” even though most of that group didn’t benefit from overripening.

The organizational response to this was to be really bad and blame the players.
 
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Dreakon13

Registered User
Jun 28, 2010
4,286
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Mighty Taco, NY
He didn’t realize he had severely compromised his forward depth
Depth in general was severely compromised WAY before Botts took the job.

his communication with Housley was so bad that neither realized none of the team’s defensemen could play their new system
I don't think that's necessarily a lack of communication? How would they know how well players would really take to the new system before actually seeing them try it in a real game? Once they did, and realized that the team apparently couldn't play pro hockey if it wasn't stretch passes and dump & chase (not that they really could with that either)... Housley pretty quickly tried to simplify things, but the long-standing toxic locker room and confidence issues made it too little too late. Until the pressure was off at least.

They also put needless barriers in front of in-house upgrades in the name of “development,” even though most of that group didn’t benefit from overripening.
The problem wasn't "overripening", it was that Rochester shared the same attitude and talent issues as the Sabres. Rochester has the ability to be really good next year with all the young NHL upside talent coming in... so long as our fear of "overripening" prospects doesn't lead to them depleting Rochester for another year. Tempting as it may be.
 
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Dreakon13

Registered User
Jun 28, 2010
4,286
1,319
Mighty Taco, NY
To be fair most of us would have scratched him 6 dozen games
Half the team should've been scratched 6 dozen games.

Point being, he didn't have some unhealthy obsession with playing Nolan. He didn't "LOVE" Nolan. Whether it was "soon enough" or not (in a season where it took 30-40 games for more than two of our forwards to show up)... he realized what he had in Nolan and appropriately made him the 13th forward when all was said and done.
 

jc17

Registered User
Jun 14, 2013
11,035
7,765
If it takes you 69 games to figure out Jordan Nolan is trash, maybe you shouldn't be an NHL coach?

Stanley cup winning coach Darryl Sutter played him 64 games in 13-14.

This is a pointless conversation. No one likes Nolan. It would have been great if someone else had his minutes. Him playing games for the Sabres is questionable, but doesn't define Housley as a bad coach or Botterill as a bad GM.
 

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