The worst trade of JR’s Penguins career (so far)...

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Let me know when we pick 1,2,1,2 four years in a row under a JR team.

We won’t be able to, the picks will have been traded.

 

[TySmith4Norris]

Not totally fair to JR but as a hindsight one the pick he moved for Perron was used to select Barzal

That one stings more than a few times each season

I realize Perron became Hagelin and cups, etc. just is interesting to consider

 

[Gurglesons]

We won despite Hainsey. He in no way helped the effort. He was a net neutral in that, he didn't do bad enough to make us lose. Fact is, we were frequently hammered in our own zone for long periods due to his inability to skate, clear a puck, or make a good first pass.

Go look back at GDT's past the Flyers series and there is endless complaining about his level of play. People were just incredibly forgiving because we ended up winning. I wasn't forgiving or willing to magically become delusional about Hainsey's performance.

I thought a 2nd was about double what we should have paid for him.

Like I said, two ways to judge - at the time value in a vacuum and then with hindsight. Brassard is a good trade to demonstrate the differences between the two.

What Flyers series did Hainsey play in?

Without Hainsey we don’t win the cup. Dude was a rock for us despite what this forum said and I would’ve gladly signed him for two more years like the Leafs did. He would have been a superb bottom pairing guy for us.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Brassard. And honestly it's not close. So many assets for a useless 3c.

 

[Gurglesons]

Brassard. And honestly it's not close. So many assets for a useless 3c.

At the time it looked like a homerun, but if we are taking in hindsight I don't see how it can be anything else unless we lose a lottery pick that ends up being 1-3 for Zucker.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

What Flyers series did Hainsey play in?

Without Hainsey we don’t win the cup. Dude was a rock for us despite what this forum said and I would’ve gladly signed him for two more years like the Leafs did. He would have been a superb bottom pairing guy for us.

I never understand hate on Hainsey given what he was here to do, and am eternally grateful for this wonderful sequence ('sup, Jimmy Neal?) I'll never forget.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The trade to acquire Kapanen was probably the worst. Not even about his ability, but in an offseason where GMs dumped cap for whatever they could get, Rutherford decides to trade a 1st + prospect when the Leafs needed to get rid of him. Just a colossal misreading of the market.

 

[PaulD]

It's the Reaves trade. The Reaves trade made me realize he didn't know what he was doing and everything up to that point was just happy accidents.

Nailed it !

 

[PaulD]

Reaves trade.

Runner up - Not replacing Sullivan after his third straight play off elimination.

 

[JRS91]

It's too early to tell.

I can see why Hornqvist was traded. Crosby didn't want him on his line, despite working there. It seems like it was the same way with Malkin, albeit he wasn't as effective there. He was a 30+ third line player making $5.3M a season that wasn't really helping our powerplay the way he had in the past. That said, he brought a lot of intangibles.

I don't think it's his worst trade, yet. The worst trade in my opinion was the Brassard trade. Now, hindsight is 20/20. We needed a third line center, but it started a chain reaction. Letting Bonino walk, meant we started the season with Greg McKegg. Rutherford then traded for Sheahan, who wasn't bad given the expectations. He then traded a top goalie prospect, a 1st and 3rd round pick, Reaves (another poor trade), and Cole for Brassard. Losing Cole was a bigger deal than I think people thought. We've been through so many defenseman since then. I'm not saying having Ian Cole would've made this team perfect, but ever since losing Daley and Cole (The circumstances were understandable at the time) without properly replacing them has hurt this team the most in my opinion. It's right up there with not properly replacing Bonino.

 

[PaulD]

At the time it looked like a homerun, but if we are taking in hindsight I don't see how it can be anything else unless we lose a lottery pick that ends up being 1-3 for Zucker.

Only some Pens fans thought (hoped) "home run". The four teams he has played for since leaving the Pens are seeing the same thing. SPLAT !

Ridiculous trade by JR.

 

[PaulD]

It's too early to tell.

I can see why Hornqvist was traded. Crosby didn't want him on his line, despite working there. It seems like it was the same way with Malkin, albeit he wasn't as effective there. He was a 30+ third line player making $5.3M a season that wasn't really helping our powerplay the way he had in the past. That said, he brought a lot of intangibles.

I don't think it's his worst trade, yet. The worst trade in my opinion was the Brassard trade. Now, hindsight is 20/20. We needed a third line center, but it started a chain reaction. Letting Bonino walk, meant we started the season with Greg McKegg. Rutherford then traded for Sheahan, who wasn't bad given the expectations. He then traded a top goalie prospect, a 1st and 3rd round pick, Reaves (another poor trade), and Cole for Brassard. Losing Cole was a bigger deal than I think people thought. We've been through so many defenseman since then. I'm not saying having Ian Cole would've made this team perfect, but ever since losing Daley and Cole (The circumstances were understandable at the time) without properly replacing them has hurt this team the most in my opinion. It's right up there with not properly replacing Bonino.

JR needed to, and should have gone out oh his way to keep Daley.

 

[Pens1566]

Not touching the Horny/MM trade in this context. Just completely too early.

The whole Reaves to Brassard chain just stinks of bad asset management to me. I'd put that at the top of my list.

 

[brewski420]

Not totally fair to JR but as a hindsight one the pick he moved for Perron was used to select Barzal

That one stings more than a few times each season

I realize Perron became Hagelin and cups, etc. just is interesting to consider

Somehow Barzal wouldn't be the same player under Sullivan!!

 

[LOGiK]

I never understand hate on Hainsey given what he was here to do, and am eternally grateful for this wonderful sequence ('sup, Jimmy Neal?) I'll never forget.

Whats this???

Crowd? Competent hockey?

Seems like a different life time at this point.

 

[SEALBound]

What Flyers series did Hainsey play in?

Without Hainsey we don’t win the cup. Dude was a rock for us despite what this forum said and I would’ve gladly signed him for two more years like the Leafs did. He would have been a superb bottom pairing guy for us.

Whoop, I meant Columbus. I was looking at 2018 highlights and had the Flyers open on Capfriendly.

The trade to acquire Kapanen was probably the worst. Not even about his ability, but in an offseason where GMs dumped cap for whatever they could get, Rutherford decides to trade a 1st + prospect when the Leafs needed to get rid of him. Just a colossal misreading of the market.

I think this is a little bit of narrative building without facts. Everyone knew that Toronto was going to make a trade or two but that doesn't mean they were going to let their valuable assets go for peanuts. There were also three other suiters for Kapanen IIRC. JR was the one willing to give the 1st they wanted. Kapanen was his guy and JR gets his guy. We didn't have a 2nd at the time either so the price we paid was likely the only price we could have.

I always think it's funny when people make statements like "Just a colossal misreading of the market" when you have absolutely zero clue what the market actually is, what GMs wants and needs are, how they value players, etc. It's like criticizing a surgeon when he makes a minor error. Let's not pretend there was an email that went out league-wide that said "we will take anything we can get for Kapanen. A 7th?"

It's too early to tell.

I can see why Hornqvist was traded. Crosby didn't want him on his line, despite working there. It seems like it was the same way with Malkin, albeit he wasn't as effective there. He was a 30+ third line player making $5.3M a season that wasn't really helping our powerplay the way he had in the past. That said, he brought a lot of intangibles.

I don't think it's his worst trade, yet. The worst trade in my opinion was the Brassard trade. Now, hindsight is 20/20. We needed a third line center, but it started a chain reaction. Letting Bonino walk, meant we started the season with Greg McKegg. Rutherford then traded for Sheahan, who wasn't bad given the expectations. He then traded a top goalie prospect, a 1st and 3rd round pick, Reaves (another poor trade), and Cole for Brassard. Losing Cole was a bigger deal than I think people thought. We've been through so many defenseman since then. I'm not saying having Ian Cole would've made this team perfect, but ever since losing Daley and Cole (The circumstances were understandable at the time) without properly replacing them has hurt this team the most in my opinion. It's right up there with not properly replacing Bonino.

You mention hindsight being 20/20 but then use it to justify everything, lol. Cole wrote his own ticket out of town. He was not a good dman for us the last year he was here. He was regularly outplayed by Hunwick and then got into pissing matches with Sullivan via the media. Sorry, he did more to get himself traded than JR did. Truthfully, it wasn't until Hunwick's injury and ultimate return did we start to feel the hurt but that's shakey, at best, the premise for evaluating another trade as predicting injuries and return level of play is impossible. We would have been able to afford Cole anyway so the point is kinda mute. We didn't lose vs the Caps because of not having Cole.

The Bonino things is always a point of contention in that Bonino, even before the Cup finals were over, ranted and raved on how great Nashville was. He also wanted an elevated role on the team and more money. Things we couldn't really give him. So "just resign Bonino" doesn't always work that way as the player has to actually sign the contract and want to stay. He wouldn't take the lowerish offer from JR so he tested the market for all of two seconds before signing where he wanted to go at the money he wanted to play the role he was promised. The bar in "replacing" is always "spend no assets and get better than performance". Our expectations for 3C have been irreversibly ruined by Staal. Sheahan was the average 3C and everyone loathed him and thought we overspent. Then JR goes and gets Brassard. Messy but he made it work. Brassard was a premium 2C at that point in time and a big game player...exactly what we wanted and it just didn't work out. I maintain that 3C is the toughest role to fill and maintain on any team. Not too often you find a good, long term fit. If they excel like you want, they want more ice time or more money. If they don't, you want a better 3C and the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Looking back at all of the trades JR has done, I don't see any that are catastrophic. Lots of picks out the door but I think I maybe saw one or two players taken AROUND those picks we gave away that have done anything of measure. Barzel being the major one. In that time, we won 2 Cups and were in a great position for a three-peat, and generally speaking, have been contenders. We've also gotten a lot of good trades and signings that have refilled the coffers.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think for those saying “everyone knew that Toronto had to move Kapanen.” Look at what just happened with Dubois.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

2017 offseason is what I am most annoyed with.

- Reaves trade.

- Signing Hunwick (which is technically worse than it may seem considering that his replacement after he got traded was Johnson).

- Showing Bonino the door, and not replacing him at all. This would later lead to that awful Brassard trade.

- Not trading Sheary for good value when he could literally only play with Crosby.

 

[JRS91]

You mention hindsight being 20/20 but then use it to justify everything, lol. Cole wrote his own ticket out of town. He was not a good dman for us the last year he was here. He was regularly outplayed by Hunwick and then got into pissing matches with Sullivan via the media. Sorry, he did more to get himself traded than JR did. Truthfully, it wasn't until Hunwick's injury and ultimate return did we start to feel the hurt but that's shakey, at best, the premise for evaluating another trade as predicting injuries and return level of play is impossible. We would have been able to afford Cole anyway so the point is kinda mute. We didn't lose vs the Caps because of not having Cole.

The Bonino things is always a point of contention in that Bonino, even before the Cup finals were over, ranted and raved on how great Nashville was. He also wanted an elevated role on the team and more money. Things we couldn't really give him. So "just resign Bonino" doesn't always work that way as the player has to actually sign the contract and want to stay. He wouldn't take the lowerish offer from JR so he tested the market for all of two seconds before signing where he wanted to go at the money he wanted to play the role he was promised. The bar in "replacing" is always "spend no assets and get better than performance". Our expectations for 3C have been irreversibly ruined by Staal. Sheahan was the average 3C and everyone loathed him and thought we overspent. Then JR goes and gets Brassard. Messy but he made it work. Brassard was a premium 2C at that point in time and a big game player...exactly what we wanted and it just didn't work out. I maintain that 3C is the toughest role to fill and maintain on any team. Not too often you find a good, long term fit. If they excel like you want, they want more ice time or more money. If they don't, you want a better 3C and the cycle keeps repeating itself.

Looking back at all of the trades JR has done, I don't see any that are catastrophic. Lots of picks out the door but I think I maybe saw one or two players taken AROUND those picks we gave away that have done anything of measure. Barzel being the major one. In that time, we won 2 Cups and were in a great position for a three-peat, and generally speaking, have been contenders. We've also gotten a lot of good trades and signings that have refilled the coffers.

The issue with Rutherford is if he doesn't get what he wants, he makes the situation 10 times worse.

I never said you offer those guys the world or even that they wanted to stay here long-term. I'm saying Rutherford didn't properly replace them. He didn't properly replace Bonino, so he ended up with Greg McKegg. Greg McKegg obviously wasn't a regular NHL forward, let alone a third line center so he made a low-risk move on Sheahan.

Sheahan was decent, but Rutherford wanted more. So he traded for Brassard, which to be fair to Rutherford, was just one of those situations that didn't pan out. I don't blame Rutherford for Brassard playing poorly and not fitting here. I blame Rutherford for prioritizing trading for Ryan Reaves rather than trying to get a third line center. Ryan Reaves, a player we absolutely didn't need. If Rutherford traded a 1st round pick in 2017 for a third line center, whoever that would've been and they didn't work out, so be it. At least he tried to prioritize a point of need, but he didn't. Instead he thought the back-to-back Stanley Cup champions needed a guy that played 7-8 minutes a night to teach Tom Wilson a lesson.

Once again, he doesn't get what he wants, so he makes his situation a lot worse. He's not patient. He traded a first round pick for Zucker (who's being misused) and he traded a first round pick for Kapanen. I'm not saying those two are bad players, but had he waited there were free agents that could've equally served those top-six roles at similar cap hits without giving up assets. He made a mistake on Hunwick and instead of learning from his mistake, he signed an even worse defenseman in Jack Johnson while dumping Sheary for nothing to make cap space for Jack Johnson. It's about wasting assets with Rutherford. It's about not being patient and overspending and making knee-jerk moves too early. Our third line center could be Erik Haula right now. We could've had Mike Hoffman on a cheap one year deal or Craig Smith on a cheap team-friendly deal. These are deals the Penguins missed out on because Rutherford needed his guy. Once again, I'm not knocking Zucker or Kapanen, they're both good players and right now Zucker is being misused, but it's a matter of principle.

 

[Pens x]

I think for those saying “everyone knew that Toronto had to move Kapanen.” Look at what just happened with Dubois.

Toronto is like $30,000 under the cap right now. They had to dump salary to get under the cap to sign guys like Brodie and others. Dubas HAD to dump KK to upgrade their D. How on earth to you give a team your best draft pick over the last 8 or 9 years and one of your three best prospects for a guy the opposing team HAD to get rid of. JR clearly misplayed the market here.

Columbus didn’t HAVE to trade Dubois right now.

JR got destroyed in this trade, and it has nothing to do with KK per se. A third line player doesn’t fetch that much for a team desperately trying to unload salary.

 

[Gurglesons]

Toronto is like $30,000 under the cap right now. They had to dump salary to get under the cap to sign guys like Brodie and others. Dubas HAD to dump KK to upgrade their D. How on earth to you give a team your best draft pick over the last 8 or 9 years and one of your three best prospects for a guy the opposing team HAD to get rid of? JR clearly misplayed the market here.

Columbus didn’t HAVE to trade Dubois right now.

Toronto didn't have to trade Kapanen either.

 

[Pens x]

Toronto didn't have to trade Kapanen either.

They had to dump cap to sign Brodie. You have to dump your third line player when the return is a good prospect and 15th overall pick without retaining any salary.

 

[Gurglesons]

They had to dump cap to sign Brodie. You have to dump your third line player when the return is a good prospect and 15th overall pick without retaining any salary.

I must have missed where they signed Brodie prior to trading Kapanen.

Why don't you go back to criticizing Teddy Bleuger?

 

[Pens x]

I must have missed where they signed Brodie prior to trading Kapanen.

Why don't you go back to criticizing Teddy Bleuger?

I said Blueger is more deserving than Jank. I also said that Blueger isn’t good enough to carry a line if he’s stuck with McCann and another poor winger. I still think a McCann Blueger Tanev/Rodrigues combo would be a poor third line, offensively.

Tanev, Jank and McCann went cold fast after their two game solid performance. You really rubbed it in my face that the third line was clicking. (For all of 2 games)

The line then faded to the point where it was dismantled.

 

[Gurglesons]

I said Blueger is more deserving than Jank. I also said that Blueger isn’t good enough to carry a line if he’s stuck with McCann and another poor winger. I still think a McCann Blueger Tanev/Rodrigues combo would be a poor third line, offensively.

Tanev, Jank and McCann went cold fast after their two game solid performance. You really rubbed it in my face that the third line was clicking. (For all of 2 games)

The line then faded to the point where it was dismantled.

Through 6 GPs

Bleuger - 2G - 2A - 55 PT Pace
McCann - 2G - 2A - 55 PT Pace
Tanev - 2G - 1 A - 41 PT Pace
Jankowski - 1 G - 2 A - 41 PT Pace
Sceviour - 2G 27 PT Pace
Rodrigues - 1G 14 PT Pace