The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Jame]

So the guy that took the blame for every lost first and said he himself needed to be better and did so by holding extra sessions on the ice, needs to step up and take the blame like a man? Seriously?

The guy that doesn’t like to lose, that guy, we don’t want him on the team...wow. All because he said he didn’t like coming to the rink. But instead of listening to why the man lost it, just get rid of him. The problem isn’t that the new GM made the roster bad on purpose and he brought a green Head Coach in to correct/captain the ship when his previous task was to be a cabinboy, essentially handicapping us from competeing every night. That’s not the problem. The problem is the guy that spoke his mind truthfully that busted his butt everynight that we only started to truly hate a month before he was traded because we finally had a true glimpse into what it was like in the room...THAT’s our real issue.

But, let’s say that he didn’t want to be here, like somehow that’s a crime, the guy that works hard, who is for the most part a good soldier, and well respected around the league, doesn’t want to be on this team, shouldn’t that send a message about state of the organization as a whole and shouldn’t we be worried just a little?

Botts failed so badly in his first year, that he made ROR the scape goat. He sold it to Pegula. And the Buffalo media (during a huge shakeup of it's own) was all too happy to carry the water for him.

 

[debaser66]

I mean as much as we all want to agree that keeping O'Reilly would look a lot better for us right now we should take solace in knowing there is no way we could keep both O'Reilly and Skinner on this team with Okposo's contract. If we don't pull the trigger on the ROR deal I doubt we land Jeff Skinner.

Now the contents of the trade are definitely something we can argue about though. The fact we couldn't get someone to produce this season out of that deal is a miss by Botts. Yes, Thompson and the 1st rounder could end up being major pieces (questionable at best) but to trade our second best player last year and not get anyone to produce this season in exchange for him is a huge blow.

With Jack out I rather have ROR than Skinner

 

[Moskau]

RYAN “woe is me” O’REILLY did not not want to be here..It’s disgusting the people that fawn over “woe is me”. Maybe the great savior should man up for once..and put the damn blame on his own shoulders...oh wait...he is in St.Louis..oh wait.

You do not say...”I’ve lost the for the game”...when you’re paid X amount of dollars to be a damn leader and you can’t accept the responsibility yourself. Piss on that attitude.

I’m sure I’ll hear the same “woe is me” responses....but but center depth..screw that. WOE didn’t want to be here because he hates losing..Woe is gone..Let’s all bite the bullet. Thanks “WOE IS ME”. I’ll give ya 2 more in St. Louis and I’m sure you’ll say “woe is me”.

None of that excuses our GM trading him away without getting a single roster worthy player back.

 

[thewookie1]

The ROR trade will always be in the back of our minds due to the What-if possibilities.

That being said, the trade sucked from a skill and player stand point but one cannot discount the fact the team has been better without him in terms of locker room behavior by everything we've been told by those who know first hand. For instance, what if without the ROR trade the Captaincy either stays in the air or Eichel never fully commits to it like he has. Look at the Avs after they traded Duchene, Mackinnon took off when the team was placed in his hands (as the undeniable #1 Center)

The ROR trade from a player angle though will always suck barring that 1st going to 2020 and winning the lottery and/or Thompson putting it all together and becoming a solid middle-6 scorer.

 

[Gabrielor]

None of that excuses our GM trading him away without getting a single roster worthy player back.

Exactly. He’s seriously banking on two unknown picks and Thompson to carry, because the nhl-ready portion of this trade was a joke.

 

[OkimLom]

The ROR trade will always be in the back of our minds due to the What-if possibilities.

That being said, the trade sucked from a skill and player stand point but one cannot discount the fact the team has been better without him in terms of locker room behavior by everything we've been told by those who know first hand. For instance, what if without the ROR trade the Captaincy either stays in the air or Eichel never fully commits to it like he has. Look at the Avs after they traded Duchene, Mackinnon took off when the team was placed in his hands (as the undeniable #1 Center)

The ROR trade from a player angle though will always suck barring that 1st going to 2020 and winning the lottery and/or Thompson putting it all together and becoming a solid middle-6 scorer.

Bott's trading ROR boils down to him ASSUMING that ROR, was such a negative influence on the team, that any other improvement on the team he made wasn't enough to overcome ONE player's attitude. Bott's is taking a big risk with a decision, the first big decision of his professional career, of sacrificing depth, talent/skill in favor of character (another assumption), is the right call.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Bott's trading ROR boils down to him ASSUMING that ROR, was such a negative influence on the team, that any other improvement on the team he made wasn't enough to overcome ONE player's attitude. Bott's is taking a big risk with a decision, the first big decision of his professional career, of sacrificing depth, talent/skill in favor of character (another assumption), is the right call.

That’s not why ROR was traded but don’t let that stop you from posting amateur conjecture like it’s fact.

 

[GellMann]

That’s not why ROR was traded but don’t let that stop you from posting amateur conjecture like it’s fact.

Yep. There is no evidence it was anything other than "last place team needs a change of course, let's move the old guy who has the most trade value of anyone we can reasonably move (ie, not Eich or Dahlin)." Anyone who asserts otherwise is making stuff up until we have even an ounce of evidence. And this evidence should be easy to get if true, in a league where we all know Mike Richards' drug of choice and that our actual locker room cancer just stopped coming because he didn't feel like it anymore, ie, the player we got back in the ROR trade.

But after months and months, there has been nothing unearthed.

So it's just a sh*t trade that has given us our two worst forwards, a malcontent in a leadership position turned AWOL, and an unclean first rounder, and a second rounder. While we get to watch the gaping hole in our center corps perform worse than the tank depth centers did (Flynn, Mitchell paced for 26/22 points, Casey/Vlad are doing like 20/10)

 

[OkimLom]

That’s not why ROR was traded but don’t let that stop you from posting amateur conjecture like it’s fact.

From all reports, it was centered around ROR's attitude and character. Botts didn't want that in the room. So he traded him 5 years before his contract expires. It sure wasn't because he was a UFA to be, or a talent issue (if it was, Botts needs to be fired yesterday). Players traded that are talented and traded before people expect, are most likely traded because management doesn't see them fit onto the team, most likely due to the player's chemistry (tied to his character/attitude) (which is questionable since he seemed to have good/great chemistry with Eichel, Okposo, Reinhart (two of which are leaders today)), and Bott's made the decision, as most GMs do, with assumptions. I say assume because they don't have a crystal ball in their office so they can't see the future and the consequences of their decisions. I probably should've said guesstimated to soften the harshness.

But if he wasn't traded for that, please explain why he was traded, unless you believe the $7 million bonus he was promised as THE reason why he was traded, the $7 million bonus that was there in the beginning when Tim Murray signed him to the deal. And I'm sure Terry Pegula the man who likes to be behind the scenes with all the franchise's big moves knew about.

 

[Aladyyn]

Yep. There is no evidence it was anything other than "last place team needs a change of course, let's move the old guy who has the most trade value of anyone we can reasonably move (ie, not Eich or Dahlin)." Anyone who asserts otherwise is making stuff up until we have even an ounce of evidence. And this evidence should be easy to get if true, in a league where we all know Mike Richards' drug of choice and that our actual locker room cancer just stopped coming because he didn't feel like it anymore, ie, the player we got back in the ROR trade.

But after months and months, there has been nothing unearthed.

So it's just a sh*t trade that has given us our two worst forwards, a malcontent in a leadership position turned AWOL, and an unclean first rounder, and a second rounder. While we get to watch the gaping hole in our center corps perform worse than the tank depth centers did (Flynn, Mitchell paced for 26/22 points, Casey/Vlad are doing like 20/10)

So ROR is an "old guy" now? He's a year older than Skinner. A year!

 

[GellMann]

So ROR is an "old guy" now? He's a year older than Skinner. A year!

The age of the Sabres' core of good players and prospects at the time was something like 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 27. The only thing I'm claiming is that, taking all tangible evidence into account, ROR was traded because Botterill wished to make a change to the core of the team after a last place season, and chose the highest trade value piece outside of Jack/Rasmus, with age being supplementary support for that line of reasoning. Not that ROR was a terrible cancer who is the reason the team was bad. There is subzero evidence that Botterill has ever thought anything remotely close to this, much less acted on it.

I wouldn't have made the same decision, but if I had, it wouldn't have been for the steaming pile we received in return.

 

[OkimLom]

The age of the Sabres' core of good players and prospects at the time was something like 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 27. The only thing I'm claiming is that, taking all tangible evidence into account, ROR was traded because Botterill wished to make a change to the core of the team after a last place season, and chose the highest trade value piece outside of Jack/Rasmus, with age being supplementary support for that line of reasoning. Not that ROR was a terrible cancer who is the reason the team was bad. There is subzero evidence that Botterill has ever thought anything remotely close to this, much less acted on it.

I wouldn't have made the same decision, but if I had, it wouldn't have been for the steaming pile we received in return.

If Botterill believed the core needed a shakeup more so than your middle 6/bottom 9 needing an injection actual talented players, then that should be evidence that he shouldn't be overseeing this. Hell, he made a smart acquisition acquiring Skinner. That right there is a big core shakeup. And he didn't NEED to take anybody out of the core to make it happen. But he can't leave well enough alone, and decided instead of really turning over guys in your bottom 6 using lesser assets to support your improved top 6 , it was wiser to move ROR, a core piece and a high value asset, to address your bottom 6. That alone is a stupid management decision.

 

[sabrebuild]

I mean as much as we all want to agree that keeping O'Reilly would look a lot better for us right now we should take solace in knowing there is no way we could keep both O'Reilly and Skinner on this team with Okposo's contract. If we don't pull the trigger on the ROR deal I doubt we land Jeff Skinner.

Now the contents of the trade are definitely something we can argue about though. The fact we couldn't get someone to produce this season out of that deal is a miss by Botts. Yes, Thompson and the 1st rounder could end up being major pieces (questionable at best) but to trade our second best player last year and not get anyone to produce this season in exchange for him is a huge blow.

Show your work. The cap fit works. Several of us have shown it to work. I’m willing to be convinced, but I need something more than just a definitive statement, for an argument that didn’t show up until it became undeniable how poor Sobotka and Berglund were as players.

 

[enthusiast]

The question of whether the team needed to move ROR or in some way benefited from his absence beyond that which is apparent to those outside the team is discrete from the question of the relative value of the return.

As to the first, I'm inclined to think that a move was probably the best for all parties.

As to the second, it's clear that the return is underwhelming and a disappointment. Presumably there might have been better returns on the market, but the only other one I recall is Montreal balking at 3OA. I think the biggest failure in the whole mess is not being able to get that first unprotected, but maybe Army played hardball.

 

[sabrebuild]

When I think about this trade through the prism of its impact on Jack it makes me wonder about Botts mindset. Was he supremely confident in Jack’s ability to step up into the vacuum? He must have been or it was reckless. putting so much pressure on Jack. Between the contract and the ROR trade there was zero room for Jack not to become what he is right now. If Jack wasn’t up to the challenge we would be royally ****ed. Don’t get me wrong. I expected Jack to be the player we see now. I just wasn’t t counting on it happening at the start of this season.

This. This is why the deal screams personal crap. Because like you said, on an individual level you put huge strain on a young kid, to not only jump his game a notch, but his leadership as well.

And even if he does elevate to this level, it still wouldn’t be enough to improve the team significantly.

I mean, think about where this team is, with the assumption that Skinner and Reinhart both jump huge levels, if Bogo is hurtish like usual and Dahlin is just okay?

I mean, literally everything went their way this season, except for Mitts. Botts basically got a win on every roll of the dice, from Skinner on pace for close to double his career goals, Hutton and Ulmark working great, McCabe, Bogo, beaulieu, Pilut.

Basically all those things worked out, and the pieces he traded for hurt the team nightly compared to literally every other roster player.

Now again, if dreakon thinks a culture change was so important, sure. But it doesn’t require a fake deadline and getting a crap return.

Every pro Botts poster for this trade is generally so eager to praise him for changing culture, that they refuse just to look at how bad the deal was from all angles, other than “culture” hopes.

I mean for what we got, we would have been better served to get a 1 for 1 trade that was at least a good nhler, even if the trade was lopsided. Injuries aside, I would rather have gotten Fabbri straight up.

At least then Jack or Sam could have had another running mate, to pair up in the top 6.

Thank god for Dahlin.

 

[sabremike]

The question of whether the team needed to move ROR or in some way benefited from his absence beyond that which is apparent to those outside the team is discrete from the question of the relative value of the return.

As to the first, I'm inclined to think that a move was probably the best for all parties.

As to the second, it's clear that the return is underwhelming and a disappointment. Presumably there might have been better returns on the market, but the only other one I recall is Montreal balking at 3OA. I think the biggest failure in the whole mess is not being able to get that first unprotected, but maybe Army played hardball.

The problem is that we were hellbent on trading him and didn't care about the return at all. The Blues GM took complete advantage of being handed every last bit of leverage in this situation. We played our hand in the worst possible manner and this was the unfortunate result. The lesson to be learned here is to never force a trade, be patient and only do a deal when you get the price you want.

 

[enthusiast]

Sure, but that can lead to the similar extreme of a Darcy-type stakeout. You can argue (successfully!) that it was rushed, but there's no guarantee that anything better was coming down the line.

 

[sabrebuild]

Botterill as a GM doesn't have a care in the world how player salary is paid out, only the cap hit. That answers the question. But then you have to ask yourself what in the world would make an owner force a trade because he was so against paying 7 mil to someone. You might not like the answer, and actually, the answer sucks no matter who you want to blame.

Dude, let’s assume that O’Reilly is a drunk devil incarnate. It’s still the summer, and you didn’t mind him on your team for three years and you are a billionaire.

Do you really think it’s a problem for the other players to have him get paid and be on the roster all summer? It didn’t hurt Colorado when they kept Duchene into the actual season.

It’s Pegula’s money, he will do as he pleases. But it’s not on the fans to just say thank you for a cheap, ego related, decision.

 

[sabremike]

Sure, but that can lead to the similar extreme of a Darcy-type stakeout. You can argue (successfully!) that it was rushed, but there's no guarantee that anything better was coming down the line.

But I can all but guarantee nothing worse was ever coming down the line either. In the words of Lou Lamorello: "If you have time use it".

 

[sabrebuild]

The question of whether the team needed to move ROR or in some way benefited from his absence beyond that which is apparent to those outside the team is discrete from the question of the relative value of the return.

As to the first, I'm inclined to think that a move was probably the best for all parties.

As to the second, it's clear that the return is underwhelming and a disappointment. Presumably there might have been better returns on the market, but the only other one I recall is Montreal balking at 3OA. I think the biggest failure in the whole mess is not being able to get that first unprotected, but maybe Army played hardball.

I’m good with any trade.

But you just came in last place. Management and the coach used the player like a workhorse for his entire time here, including with Housley and Botts. No trade talk until he pops off at the end of the season.

There clearly is no rush to trade him before the season, you have no reason to trade him before the season. The team clearly had no major problem with him in season. Because it would be really weird if they thought he was a huge problem and they played him endlessly.

That return is not based on Army playing hardball. It’s based on Botts and Pegula playing hardball with themselves.

 

[Fezzy126]

The problem is that we were hellbent on trading him and didn't care about the return at all. The Blues GM took complete advantage of being handed every last bit of leverage in this situation. We played our hand in the worst possible manner and this was the unfortunate result. The lesson to be learned here is to never force a trade, be patient and only do a deal when you get the price you want.

I disagree. There were public quotes about a roster shakeup, and ROR was at the top of the list. Additionally, most of the well known sources were reporting ROR's name (BMac, Dreger, etc.). My point is, it was well known that the Sabres were open for business and that ROR was a candidate. When someone advertises that a premiere talent is available, that should theoretically open up the market for a competitive bidding situation.

Lastly, Botts had direct working experiences with multiple gms around the league - Rutherford, Shero, Francis, Fletcher, as well as indirect experience with several others. So communications/relationships shouldn't have been a roadblock either.

The most likely answer here is that ROR just isn't as coveted around the league as many around here would believe, otherwise the market would have resulted in a better deal. The real question that no one has asked through a thousand of these f***ing threads is; why wasn't he valued higher by multiple teams (regardless of the timeline)?

 

[enthusiast]

I’m good with any trade.

But you just came in last place. Management and the coach used the player like a workhorse for his entire time here, including with Housley and Botts. No trade talk until he pops off at the end of the season.

There clearly is no rush to trade him before the season, you have no reason to trade him before the season. The team clearly had no major problem with him in season. Because it would be really weird if they thought he was a huge problem and they played him endlessly.

Valid, but this analysis overlooks the possibility that the team was operating inefficiently before and should have done something much sooner. I don't think that's an unlikely scenario, but that's my own bias against this management.

 

[sabremike]

I disagree. There were public quotes about a roster shakeup, and ROR was at the top of the list. Additionally, most of the well known sources were reporting ROR's name (BMac, Dreger, etc.). My point is, it was well known that the Sabres were open for business and that ROR was a candidate. When someone advertises that a premiere talent is available, that should theoretically open up the market for a competitive bidding situation.

Lastly, Botts had direct working experiences with multiple gms around the league - Rutherford, Shero, Francis, Fletcher, as well as indirect experience with several others. So communications/relationships shouldn't have been a roadblock either.

The most likely answer here is that ROR just isn't as coveted around the league as many around here would believe, otherwise the market would have resulted in a better deal. The real question that no one has asked through a thousand of these ****ing threads is; why wasn't he valued higher by multiple teams (regardless of the timeline)?

The answer to the last question is that the quality of executives in hockey is easily the worst most incompetent and mistake prone in all of American or Canadian pro sports. Bad decisions are made in hockey at a rate you see in no other sport.

 

[enthusiast]

The answer to the last question is that the quality of executives in hockey is easily the worst most incompetent and mistake prone in all of American or Canadian pro sports. Bad decisions are made in hockey at a rate you see in no other sport.

I think that's just one's exposure. Every sport is terrible in this regard.

 

[sabrebuild]

I disagree. There were public quotes about a roster shakeup, and ROR was at the top of the list. Additionally, most of the well known sources were reporting ROR's name (BMac, Dreger, etc.). My point is, it was well known that the Sabres were open for business and that ROR was a candidate. When someone advertises that a premiere talent is available, that should theoretically open up the market for a competitive bidding situation.

Lastly, Botts had direct working experiences with multiple gms around the league - Rutherford, Shero, Francis, Fletcher, as well as indirect experience with several others. So communications/relationships shouldn't have been a roadblock either.

The most likely answer here is that ROR just isn't as coveted around the league as many around here would believe, otherwise the market would have resulted in a better deal. The real question that no one has asked through a thousand of these ****ing threads is; why wasn't he valued higher by multiple teams (regardless of the timeline)?

Because a 7.5 million dollar cap hit that requires a huge bonus to be paid by the acquiring team chops 20 teams in the league off the list immediately.

Contending teams can’t fit him in, without potentially moving several pieces and disrupting their roster plans, which frequently are locked in with competitive teams, nmc for many stars etc.

Broke teams, Ottawa, Arizona etc, can’t afford a huge bonus like that for a non super elite player and even those they can’t afford.

So that basically only leaves maybe 5-10 teams who are potential suitors between money and roster construction during the artificial window the Sabres created.

They put out a new top dollar product out right after everyone blew their Christmas wad.

If you were a team, and team X puts out a fire sale sign and says player X1 is great, important position, producer, etc, but I’m getting rid of him ASAP and my filthy rich owner won’t pickup the lockout proof contract bonus that was wisely put in...

Would you pay full price in that market?