The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Dreakon13]

Trading one very good player for 3 bad players is objectively bad. So far, the best asset acquired in this trade is the fact that one of the bad players mysteriously quit mid-season.

Most quality for quantity trades are "objectively bad" if you look at the direct impact on the ice immediately following them... but they happen. There tend to be other factors involved, like futures and/or cap implications. Maybe something something culture shake up something something depending on the state of the room prior to it.

EDIT: Even with Berglund the cap outlook was brighter after the trade, and Thompson's career isn't over quite yet. Plus the picks.

 

[toomuchsauce]

Most quality for quantity trades are "objectively bad"... but they happen. There tend to be other factors involved.

Such trades don't have to be objectively bad. I'm not saying that the team who gets the best player automatically "wins" the trade. The Sabres seemed intent on trading O'Reilly, and they had depth issues, so a "quantity" trade to fill out the depth forwards would have been okay, had it worked. Instead, they spectacularly failed. They acquired 3 guys. One guy quit (and most people thought that was actually a good thing). The other two guys are two of the most ineffective players in the entire NHL. As a result, the Sabres depth is not just bad, but "tank era" bad. They literally would have been better off trading O'Reilly for just the pick and trying to fill out the roster in other ways.

 

[Dreakon13]

One guy quit (and most people thought that was actually a good thing). The other two guys are two of the most ineffective players in the entire NHL. As a result, the Sabres depth is not just bad, but "tank era" bad. They literally would have been better off trading O'Reilly for just the pick and trying to fill out the roster in other ways.

Berglund leaving was great from a cap perspective, bad from a team perspective. Not anything against him really, we just need the cap space more the next few years. Sobotka was always meant to be a plug. It was all about Thompson and the picks.

I'd be lying if I said I don't want more out of Thompson, but the way people have basically wrapped up the kids development/career with the Sabres in 39 games to prove a point about the ROR trade is hilarious and frustrating in equal measure.

 

[Zip15]

Most quality for quantity trades are "objectively bad" if you look at the direct impact on the ice immediately following them... but they happen. There tend to be other factors involved, like futures and/or cap implications. Maybe something something culture shake up something something depending on the state of the room prior to it.

EDIT: Even with Berglund the cap outlook was brighter after the trade, and Thompson's career isn't over quite yet. Plus the picks.

Prior to Berglund losing his love for the game (in Buffalo), there wasn't any notable cap relief until Year 3 of a post-ROR world.

 

[toomuchsauce]

Berglund leaving was great from a cap perspective, bad from a team perspective. Not anything against him really, we just need the cap space more the next few years. Sobotka was always meant to be a plug. It was all about Thompson and the picks.

I'd be lying if I said I don't want more out of Thompson, but the way people have basically wrapped up the kids development/career with the Sabres in 39 games to prove a point about the ROR trade is hilarious and frustrating in equal measure.

I am just accurately describing the players the Sabres acquired in the ROR trade. Berglund and Sobotka were bad and continued to be bad here. I would probably think more of Tage Thompson if he was playing in the AHL and performing relatively well. But, since that's not happening, all I have to go on is his performance in the NHL. And it's bad. What else am I supposed to say about him when evaluating this trade?

 

[OkimLom]

Most quality for quantity trades are "objectively bad" if you look at the direct impact on the ice immediately following them... but they happen. There tend to be other factors involved, like futures and/or cap implications. Maybe something something culture shake up something something depending on the state of the room prior to it.

EDIT: Even with Berglund the cap outlook was brighter after the trade, and Thompson's career isn't over quite yet. Plus the picks.

Even With Berglund in the lineup they still look like they would need to reinvest into finding a top 6 center, a role we had locked up.

If this is all done to help with the cap then we should be seeing cost-effective contracts going forward. Hopefully after this bridge we can get Reinhart for cheap, you know the other winger with good chemistry with Eichel that is on the other side of the winger many would have no problem signing for 8 million per.

Oh also, without any further proof, looks like we’ll have to invest in some more top 6 as well.

 

[Gabrielor]

Man do I wish that we had another point producer center right now...

 

[ISeeStars]

Man do I wish that we had another point producer center right now...

I mean as much as we all want to agree that keeping O'Reilly would look a lot better for us right now we should take solace in knowing there is no way we could keep both O'Reilly and Skinner on this team with Okposo's contract. If we don't pull the trigger on the ROR deal I doubt we land Jeff Skinner.

Now the contents of the trade are definitely something we can argue about though. The fact we couldn't get someone to produce this season out of that deal is a miss by Botts. Yes, Thompson and the 1st rounder could end up being major pieces (questionable at best) but to trade our second best player last year and not get anyone to produce this season in exchange for him is a huge blow.

 

[sabremike]

The only thing keeping this trade from Ron Francis and Ulfie for John Cullen and Zalapski level awful is that it's not going to result in the Sabres being relocated to Alabama.

 

[OkimLom]

I mean as much as we all want to agree that keeping O'Reilly would look a lot better for us right now we should take solace in knowing there is no way we could keep both O'Reilly and Skinner on this team with Okposo's contract. If we don't pull the trigger on the ROR deal I doubt we land Jeff Skinner.

Now the contents of the trade are definitely something we can argue about though. The fact we couldn't get someone to produce this season out of that deal is a miss by Botts. Yes, Thompson and the 1st rounder could end up being major pieces (questionable at best) but to trade our second best player last year and not get anyone to produce this season in exchange for him is a huge blow.

Disagree about the Skinner/Okposo/ROR portion. Of the 3 guys, if we would be looking at production, Okposo would be gone 1st assuming Botts didn’t have an issue with ROR. The cap hit of ROR vs Berglund/Sobotka was similar. If we were able to land Skinner while he was here, we could’ve handled it. Long term we had Pommers coming off the books and a couple more guys, along with in two years even more cap coming off. It could’ve worked.

 

[sabremike]

Here's the problem: the Duchene situation in Colorado was a thousand times more toxic than the ROR situation. They were under far more pressure to unload the guy. But do you know what Sakic did? He waited. He was patient and waited for the right deal. To use one of Lou Lamorello's favorite lines: "If you have time use it". As a result Sakic got a top 5 pick in one of the most loaded drafts ever and a good shot at ending up with Jack Hughes. Compare that to Botts rushing to get rid of ROR, and better was it being common knowledge that there was no way he wouldn't be traded by July 1st (a deadline we foolishly imposed on ourselves that handed any other trade partner complete and total leverage) and we trade him for pennies on the dollar. The goal of trading an assett is to get good value for that assett and Botts absolutely failed to do that. The only way he gets off the hook here is if this was forced by ownership, in which case this whole organization is beyond screwed.

 

[OkimLom]

Here's the problem: the Duchene situation in Colorado was a thousand times more toxic than the ROR situation. They were under far more pressure to unload the guy. But do you know what Sakic did? He waited. He was patient and waited for the right deal. To use one of Lou Lamorello's favorite lines: "If you have time use it". As a result Sakic got a top 5 pick in one of the most loaded drafts ever and a good shot at ending up with Jack Hughes. Compare that to Botts rushing to get rid of ROR, and better was it being common knowledge that there was no way he wouldn't be traded by July 1st (a deadline we foolishly imposed on ourselves that handed any other trade partner complete and total leverage) and we trade him for pennies on the dollar. The goal of trading an assett is to get good value for that assett and Botts absolutely failed to do that. The only way he gets off the hook here is if this was forced by ownership, in which case this whole organization is beyond screwed.

Nope, doesn’t get off the hook for me even if Pegula and company are involved. The only thing that changes is my increasing distrust into this ownership.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The only way he gets off the hook here is if this was forced by ownership, in which case this whole organization is beyond screwed.

Botterill as a GM doesn't have a care in the world how player salary is paid out, only the cap hit. That answers the question. But then you have to ask yourself what in the world would make an owner force a trade because he was so against paying 7 mil to someone. You might not like the answer, and actually, the answer sucks no matter who you want to blame.

 

[OkimLom]

Like I said it’s sugar coated most likely. I know there’s no proof but why risk it when we’ve turned things around this year. That’s not the only article on the “locker room issues” but everything is speculation.

Mackinnon exploded offensively and reached his potential when Duchene left. Eichel has exploded with ROR gone.

Edit: here’s another Peter Forsberg on Matt Duchene: "Put him on the bench and trade him

There are a few ways to lookat that statement about Eichel exploding without ROR. Not diving further into that statement can lead to few interpretations.

If you’re saying Eichel has exploded because ROR is no longer here to hold him back from scoring himself, then that is laughably a bad take seeing as they rarely played together at even strength, and on the PP when they did play together, Eichel’s numbers are down in a season where is prospering.

If you are saying he has exploded without ROR here because now the coaching staff isn’t leaning on ROR anymore for the heavy lifting, and Jack is getting more opportunities and more icetime, then that could be false as well as Eichel is getting the 3rd most minutes on average per game, but even if he was getting more, then that is on Housley’s deployment.

What is most likely happening is that we are seeing the natural progression of a young superstar that we probably would’ve seen if ROR was here or not.

If there is any situation where ROR is a hinderance to Eichel it would be special teams, and if you’re of the mindset that ROR was holding him back, we would see an improvement of his numbers on the PP, not a decrease or at best the average of how Jack usually performs.

As for the locker room, Jack quite honestly has the personality of someone who takes over a room moreso than ROR, and since his 2nd year Jack has taken more and more control of the room. IMO, I don’t buy into the idea that Jack was being blocked being called captain because ROR was here. If Jack wanted to be captain all he had to do was take it. ROR’s personality lends himself to be a good supporter.

 

[Goathead]

There are a few ways to lookat that statement about Eichel exploding without ROR. Not diving further into that statement can lead to few interpretations.

If you’re saying Eichel has exploded because ROR is no longer here to hold him back from scoring himself, then that is laughably a bad take seeing as they rarely played together at even strength, and on the PP when they did play together, Eichel’s numbers are down in a season where is prospering.

If you are saying he has exploded without ROR here because now the coaching staff isn’t leaning on ROR anymore for the heavy lifting, and Jack is getting more opportunities and more icetime, then that could be false as well as Eichel is getting the 3rd most minutes on average per game, but even if he was getting more, then that is on Housley’s deployment.

What is most likely happening is that we are seeing the natural progression of a young superstar that we probably would’ve seen if ROR was here or not.

If there is any situation where ROR is a hinderance to Eichel it would be special teams, and if you’re of the mindset that ROR was holding him back, we would see an improvement of his numbers on the PP, not a decrease or at best the average of how Jack usually performs.

As for the locker room, Jack quite honestly has the personality of someone who takes over a room moreso than ROR, and since his 2nd year Jack has taken more and more control of the room. IMO, I don’t buy into the idea that Jack was being blocked being called captain because ROR was here. If Jack wanted to be captain all he had to do was take it. ROR’s personality lends himself to be a good supporter.

Natural progression yes, but in both cases I think the “changing of the guard” played a part in aiding that progression. Colorado became Mack’s team when Duchy left and Buffalo became Eich’s team when ROR left. Both players stepped up in a big way once Duch and ROR left. But it’s not just about Eich and Mack both teams in general started playing much better.

 

[Dubi Doo]

The ripple effects of this trade are going to be felt for years to come, and I fear those effects will be felt heavily in the playoffs. f***, Botts screwed the pooch with this trade. At best, he took the long route to contention, which was unnecessary.

I dont think any GM in the league had an easier road to contention than Botts did once he won the lottery, but some how he made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be.

 

[sabremike]

I still have absolutely no idea why we willingly took back Sobotka. He was literally one of the most awful players in the entire league, acquiring him was like acquiring a drum of nuclear waste. He is a guy that they should've had to give us more picks as a sweetner for taking him off their hands.

 

[OkimLom]

Natural progression yes, but in both cases I think the “changing of the guard” played a part in aiding that progression. Colorado became Mack’s team when Duchy left and Buffalo became Eich’s team when ROR left. Both players stepped up in a big way once Duch and ROR left. But it’s not just about Eich and Mack both teams in general started playing much better.

Again, I don’t think ROR was blocking Eichel from stepping up. He came to the Sabres when Jack did. There was no changing of the guard in that sense. If there was a changing of the guard it was when Gorges, Moulson were no longer on the roster. It was pretty much Jack’s team, it was just a matter of time before Jack himself stood up.

Buffalo didn’t play better, they just received better goaltending and thank s in large part to Jack’s progression.

 

[enthusiast]

Lest ye forget: post about the trade, not about other posters.

 

[Moskau]

Murray failed because he wasted assets.

Most people didn’t expect Buffalo to be where they are at.

He did, but Tim Murray never wasted an asset the way Botteril wasted Ryan O'Reilly.

Right now they're trending to being exactly what many of us thought they would be. An 80 point team that relies on one line and wishes it didn't make such a failure of a trade on July 1st. They need to find some secondary scoring and it needs to be quick.

 

[schpaff]

He did, but Tim Murray never wasted an asset the way Botteril wasted Ryan O'Reilly.

Right now they're trending to being exactly what many of us thought they would be. An 80 point team that relies on one line and wishes it didn't make such a failure of a trade on July 1st. They need to find some secondary scoring and it needs to be quick.

RYAN “woe is me” O’REILLY did not not want to be here..It’s disgusting the people that fawn over “woe is me”. Maybe the great savior should man up for once..and put the damn blame on his own shoulders...oh wait...he is in St.Louis..oh wait.

You do not say...”I’ve lost the for the game”...when you’re paid X amount of dollars to be a damn leader and you can’t accept the responsibility yourself. Piss on that attitude.

I’m sure I’ll hear the same “woe is me” responses....but but center depth..screw that. WOE didn’t want to be here because he hates losing..Woe is gone..Let’s all bite the bullet. Thanks “WOE IS ME”. I’ll give ya 2 more in St. Louis and I’m sure you’ll say “woe is me”.

 

[HaNotsri]

He did, but Tim Murray never wasted an asset the way Botteril wasted Ryan O'Reilly.

Right now they're trending to being exactly what many of us thought they would be. An 80 point team that relies on one line and wishes it didn't make such a failure of a trade on July 1st. They need to find some secondary scoring and it needs to be quick.

I’m not arguing against your post but Fasching and Lehner were quite wasteful. He spent a 3rd on a phonecall to Vesey and another 3rd on Bylsma.
And then it was that time that he forgot to call back to GMs asking about our rentals at the deadline.
GMTM could waste assets like no other. The ROR move stands out as Botts only risky move, if you look at his body of work here it’s pretty much the most risk averse it can be except for the ROR deal.

It must have been group think or an order from Pegs.
It’s our Erat/Forsberg deal.

 

[Gordo21]

We miss Berglund

 

[Der Jaeger]

Where have you gone, Ryan O'Reilly
Sabres nation turns its lonely eyes to you
Wu wu wu
What's that you say, Mr. Botterill
The Factor has left and gone away
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey

 

[OkimLom]

RYAN “woe is me” O’REILLY did not not want to be here..It’s disgusting the people that fawn over “woe is me”. Maybe the great savior should man up for once..and put the damn blame on his own shoulders...oh wait...he is in St.Louis..oh wait.

You do not say...”I’ve lost the for the game”...when you’re paid X amount of dollars to be a damn leader and you can’t accept the responsibility yourself. Piss on that attitude.

I’m sure I’ll hear the same “woe is me” responses....but but center depth..screw that. WOE didn’t want to be here because he hates losing..Woe is gone..Let’s all bite the bullet. Thanks “WOE IS ME”. I’ll give ya 2 more in St. Louis and I’m sure you’ll say “woe is me”.

So the guy that took the blame for every lost first and said he himself needed to be better and did so by holding extra sessions on the ice, needs to step up and take the blame like a man? Seriously?

The guy that doesn’t like to lose, that guy, we don’t want him on the team...wow. All because he said he didn’t like coming to the rink. But instead of listening to why the man lost it, just get rid of him. The problem isn’t that the new GM made the roster bad on purpose and he brought a green Head Coach in to correct/captain the ship when his previous task was to be a cabinboy, essentially handicapping us from competeing every night. That’s not the problem. The problem is the guy that spoke his mind truthfully that busted his butt everynight that we only started to truly hate a month before he was traded because we finally had a true glimpse into what it was like in the room...THAT’s our real issue.

But, let’s say that he didn’t want to be here, like somehow that’s a crime, the guy that works hard, who is for the most part a good soldier, and well respected around the league, doesn’t want to be on this team, shouldn’t that send a message about state of the organization as a whole and shouldn’t we be worried just a little?