The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Aladyyn]

Is Ryan O'Reilly a 1C? Yes, he is in the ~22-35 range among all centers. Is he a 1C on a contender? Hell no. RoR is the ultimate supporting center. But you cannot be considered a premier high end 1C when you have never reacher 30 goals, 40 assists, 65 points or made it past round 1 in the first 9 seasons of your career.

RoR will likely finish with career highs across the board. 30-35 goals, 40-45 assists and ~75 points is a reasonable estimate based on current pace. Unfortunately he turns 28 in a month and was never a good skater to begin with. Sooner rather then later his skating will deteriorate, and when he reaches 30/31 he is likely a ~55 point player at that point since his skating will not hold up enough to allow him to continue receiving 20+ mins a night.

If RoR never held out inflating his salary and he was signed to a deal closer to 6,6.5 mil instead of 7.5 mil then he would likely be here. But at his current pay, Botts knew he could not allocate 23.5 mil on Eichel, RoR and Okposo for the next 4 coming into this season. Not with Reinhart, Dahlin, Mitts, and McCabe among others who would need new deals prior to the big 3s deals expiring.

At some point though you need to question why a supposed franchise shutdown center has made the playoffs twice in 10 seasons with minimal production and no games past the first round.

It is because RoR is a supporting piece, not a foundational one. A cup contender can not have RoR as one of its top 2 forwards. He is best suited as a 2C being the 4th or 5th best option. Unfortunately he was paid as a superstar when he signed his deal.

Why are you making up completely arbitrary cutoffs just so ROR doesn't fit? Why are you acting like this is basketball where one player can determine everything?

ROR is better than any center on the Predators and yet they are perennial contenders. Sort of throws a wrench into the whole theory too.

 

[coastal]

Would love to have known the personality dynamics at play.

A single player can kill a whole locker room... even if that player is talented.

Not saying ROR was that guy, but with 2 teams now moving on from him... it makes you wonder.

That and playing bumper cars with a Timmy Hos almost immediately after signing the largest contract in Sabres’ history was just an awful start to his so-called tenure in Buffalo.

 

[joshjull]

You know what builds a winning culture? Winning games. You know how you win games? With guys like ROR centering your second line, not Vladamir Sobotka.

Its a lot of different things that come together and winning is a part of it. But you and others oversell it as the redeeming savior in and of itself.

In a recent radio interview one of the guys wearing a letter feels getting the culture right comes before winning and that it takes time to get it right (the culture that is).

Bogosian - I think winning can help a lot of things. The culture needs to be buckled down before you start winning games. There's no timeline on that. Some teams it happens right away, some teams it takes years. #Sabres

That could be interpreted as it took the Sabres years to get the culture right (or buckled it down as Bogo said) and now that they have they're winning.

 

[truthbluth]

God the O'Reilly trade feels as bad today as it did Oct 1

 

[Chainshot]

God the O'Reilly trade feels as bad today as it did Oct 1

Worse, having seen the replacements "performance".

 

[Zip15]

Worse, having seen the replacements "performance".

This afternoon, I opened a Word doc and wrote out the reasons I hated this trade. I got to #8, knew I wasn't done, and got too pissed off to continue. An awful trade from the second it was agreed to.

 

[slip]

I'm still stunned the character vet we brought in to replace ROR quit on the team 1/3 of way through the season. I mean what the f***.

 

[BFLO]

What are the chances that the 1st round draft pick we got from the trade out preforms ROR career wise? Even if the pick gets deferred to next year and ends up top 10, it's still a really low chance right? And then we can't really count on that player contributing until 2023 and reaching their prime until 2025? And that's if they even pan out.

 

[OkimLom]

I had a novel typed up about my hatred of the trade. I decided not to post it. Everything that needs to be said at this point has been said by myself and others. I don't think there's going to be anything new to talk about until we see what happens with the 1st round pick, whether it was traded for immediate help or used to draft someone.

 

[enthusiast]

Once again, don't post lazy one-liners. I'm trying to be lenient in the midst of the franchise meltdown, but post better.

 

[Gabrielor]

Jack and Ryan with some good friendly all-star banter.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I thought the purpose of the trade for Sabres was to get long term cap relief from the 7.5m ROR. An added bonus for Sabres was when Bergland retired and got any additional 3.85m of cap space. So it wasn't so much the players and picks in return, it's how to spend that free 11m a year.

 

[OkimLom]

I thought the purpose of the trade for Sabres was to get long term cap relief from the 7.5m ROR. An added bonus for Sabres was when Bergland retired and got any additional 3.85m of cap space. So it wasn't so much the players and picks in return, it's how to spend that free 11m a year.

Cap relief he wasn’t going to get better I ntil 2 years after the trade. He got lucky with Berglund losing the love the game...And now we’re at a point where we may have to reinvest into another center via free agency, which most likely is tiers worse than ROR, or we spend another year with the trial by fire of Mittelstadt centering your second scoring line and continue to give Sobotka more time at center.

 

[BuffaloGooner]

I miss him here

 

[Gabrielor]

He should still be a Sabre.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I miss him here

Big mistake, everytime I see him play I get a little sad that hes not in this organization anymore.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

The only possible justifiable reason from the Sabres point of view for making that trade is if ROR demanded a trade and threatened to sit out the season. Even then you wait for a better return than the one we got.

The whole thing with the deadline for the bonus money reeks of non-hockey reasons. Botts threatened the price would be higher after the deadline and then immediately caved just in time.

Why would ROR care who pays him that bonus on July 1st? He's getting that money either way. Why would a GM take a lesser return before the deadline when he could get a better return after? It's a bad hockey move to rush to trade him for that return before the deadline. The only ones that would care about paying bonus money which didn't affect the cap would be the owner.

Even if it was owner meddling, I'm not completely giving Botts a pass. He either overvalued the players coming back or was fine taking cap dumps in addition to make the deal even worse. Both of those possibilities would be bad. There was no need to take on bad players with bad cap hits.

 

[Yatzhee]

The only possible justifiable reason from the Sabres point of view for making that trade is if ROR demanded a trade and threatened to sit out the season. Even then you wait for a better return than the one we got.

The whole thing with the deadline for the bonus money reeks of non-hockey reasons. Botts threatened the price would be higher after the deadline and then immediately caved just in time.

Why would ROR care who pays him that bonus on July 1st? He's getting that money either way. Why would a GM take a lesser return before the deadline when he could get a better return after? It's a bad hockey move to rush to trade him for that return before the deadline. The only ones that would care about paying bonus money which didn't affect the cap would be the owner.

Even if it was owner meddling, I'm not completely giving Botts a pass. He either overvalued the players coming back or was fine taking cap dumps in addition to make the deal even worse. Both of those possibilities would be bad. There was no need to take on bad players with bad cap hits.

I can understand the frustration as a fan given ROR's skills. And without knowledge of what all actually went on, some media (Vogl being one of them, but not the only one) have reported that ROR's trade was to prevent the "woe's me" mindset from infecting the room, specifically the young'ns.

But the bolded statement, it just baffles me how any rational person could actually believe that an owner, the individual or group who actually OWN the Product, can be considered a meddler. I mean, they PAID MONEY to OWN the PRODUCT. It's theirs, not the fans, not the city, not the players. The very reason they are called OWNERS, is because they actually OWN it. Just shake my head.

 

[sabrebuild]

The only possible justifiable reason from the Sabres point of view for making that trade is if ROR demanded a trade and threatened to sit out the season. Even then you wait for a better return than the one we got.

The whole thing with the deadline for the bonus money reeks of non-hockey reasons. Botts threatened the price would be higher after the deadline and then immediately caved just in time.

Why would ROR care who pays him that bonus on July 1st? He's getting that money either way. Why would a GM take a lesser return before the deadline when he could get a better return after? It's a bad hockey move to rush to trade him for that return before the deadline. The only ones that would care about paying bonus money which didn't affect the cap would be the owner.

Even if it was owner meddling, I'm not completely giving Botts a pass. He either overvalued the players coming back or was fine taking cap dumps in addition to make the deal even worse. Both of those possibilities would be bad. There was no need to take on bad players with bad cap hits.

Well said.

 

[sabrebuild]

I can understand the frustration as a fan given ROR's skills. And without knowledge of what all actually went on, some media (Vogl being one of them, but not the only one) have reported that ROR's trade was to prevent the "woe's me" mindset from infecting the room, specifically the young'ns.

But the bolded statement, it just baffles me how any rational person could actually believe that an owner, the individual or group who actually OWN the Product, can be considered a meddler. I mean, they PAID MONEY to OWN the PRODUCT. It's theirs, not the fans, not the city, not the players. The very reason they are called OWNERS, is because they actually OWN it. Just shake my head.

Can one not own something, and be a meddler?

To have fun with this logic game, by definition is not the owner the only person with the ability to meddle?

Is Dan Snyder a meddler? Or Jerry Jones? Vs Bob Kraft or Young Wirtz in Chicago?

I mean obviously people just mean a rich non hockey person trying to tell experts what to do to the detriment of the franchise.

 

[joshjull]

The only possible justifiable reason from the Sabres point of view for making that trade is if ROR demanded a trade and threatened to sit out the season. Even then you wait for a better return than the one we got.

The whole thing with the deadline for the bonus money reeks of non-hockey reasons. Botts threatened the price would be higher after the deadline and then immediately caved just in time.

Why would ROR care who pays him that bonus on July 1st? He's getting that money either way. Why would a GM take a lesser return before the deadline when he could get a better return after? It's a bad hockey move to rush to trade him for that return before the deadline. The only ones that would care about paying bonus money which didn't affect the cap would be the owner.

Even if it was owner meddling, I'm not completely giving Botts a pass. He either overvalued the players coming back or was fine taking cap dumps in addition to make the deal even worse. Both of those possibilities would be bad. There was no need to take on bad players with bad cap hits.

Hardly the only reason. The bonus thing was most likely from the owners. As in if we've decided to move on from this guy then get him out before we pay him his bonus of 7.5mil. Which is understandable.

 

[Aladyyn]

Hardly the only reason. The bonus thing was most likely from the owners. As in if we've decided to move on from this guy then get him out before we pay him his bonus of 7.5mil. Which is understandable.

"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence, will be to win a Stanley Cup."

 

[joshjull]

"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence, will be to win a Stanley Cup."

Is this supposed to be a clever counterpoint? I don't blame ownership for not wanting to pay 7.5mil to a player they were moving on from. His contract is yet another of Murray's f*** ups. No reason for his contract to be almost entirely made up of July 1st bonus payments each year. If the premise was making it lockout proof then only two years needed to be that. As in the only 2 possible years the CBA could expire and lead to a lockout. Its not like those years were a mystery. He was such a stupid GM

 

[Aladyyn]

Is this supposed to be a clever counterpoint? I don't blame ownership for not wanting to pay 7.5mil to a player they were moving on from. His contract is yet another of Murray's **** ups. No reason for his contract to be almost entirely made up of July 1st bonus payments each year. If the premise was making it lockout proof then only two years needed to be that. As in the only 2 possible years the CBA could expire and lead to a lockout. Its not like those years were a mystery. He was such a stupid GM

AHAHAHAHAHAHA you can't be serious

 

[joshjull]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA you can't be serious

Yes I am. Look at Jack's contract. Only 2 years have a July bonus payment. That would be the two years a lockout could happen. Murray, as with most things during his tenure, overdid something he didn't have to. I'm hoping you can grasp the issue is the structure of ROR's deal not his 7.5mil cap hit or that he got a long term big money contract like that.

Like your previous post you addressed nothing and were snarky. There is nothing remotely shocking an owner wouldn't want to pay a 7.5mil "bonus payment" to a player heading out the door. The only reason that bonus is even in play is our previous GM. Is it the most egregious thing a GM could do? Of course not, but it adds to the list.