The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't even play the "bad vibe effect" on teammates angle. There's enough smoke to suggest that O'Reilly was/is an alcoholic, and that after some embarrassing events with O'Reilly, Kane, and Lehner (not to mention TM's lack of professionalism in some settings) that the organization simply didn't want that kind of drama and potentially negative influences among a young and growing roster.

That goes beyond some "woe is me" vibe that could get players' mojo going the wrong direction (even if that was true, it's not enough to force a trade). Being a tangibly poor influence for a bunch of 20ish guys trying to become professionals representing the team in a positive light, does warrant a trade. Some people will downplay the DWI H&R, but you better believe the day after that happened O'Reilly was scratched off the list of EVER wearing a "C" on a Sabres sweater. Mitigate that all you want, but some people think that stuff matters A LOT, and that provides a strong basis to consider trading him at some point.

For many people (and I'm going to be fairly confident that the Pegulas and Botterill are these types) no on-ice value is enough to offset a guy that has ****ed up off-ice and made unwise comments to the media during a time when the team needed resilient leadership. The whole "lost my love for the game" stuff is just a small topper to the bigger picture. It's overblown by some here for sure, because I don't think the argument those posters use is the main issue. I think the organization wanted to sweep away the negatives and start over with professionalism and character as a focal point. Kane traded, Lehner simply left to become a UFA, and O'Reilly traded after his comments were the icing on that "unprofessional cake" that was baking since his DWI. Berglund goes AWOL, his contract is terminated asap.

The O'Reilly trade was part of a bigger culture change that the Pegulas chose to pursue, and Botterill probably is on board with that based on some comments he's made about character. This argument over whether O'Reilly was a Debbie Downer in the locker room is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[sabrebuild]

The argument in favor of keeping ROR is that the team is more talented with him on it.

That is 100% true. However, the best teams are NOT always the most talented teams. Far too many fans make the mistake that the more talented team is always going to be better.

In the case of ROR, his trade allowed Jack to be the unquestioned #1 center. Instead of ROR being out there doing the heavy lifting, Jack is taking responsibility at both ends of the ice, and the team is thriving. Yes, ROR should have been used in a different role (as the #2 scoring center). However, just the change in the way the team operates via Jack's now unquestioned leadership instead of sharing the spotlight with ROR is enough of a validation of the trade

If a team needs to trade a talented player because the coach refuses to play him properly, then reassess your decision making. That’s absurd.

When Eichel was healthy and on, he has dominated this team with his personality since he was a rookie. I don’t think anyone could reasonably say, that O’Reilly was a dominant locker room personality, it’s a point by many of his detractors. Nor think that Jack wasn’t already the juice and Alpha in the room for this group. Which is a minor disagreement I would have with you and @joshjull.

But forget that stuff. I have never thought O’Reilly should never be traded under any circumstance, I just operate from a policy of what is best for the team. And that includes trading anyone.

But assuming they decided that Jack wouldn’t be strong enough to leapfrog O’Reilly in the room, or that O’Reilly’s attitude was a real problem, in the end the tell that this was personal was the refusal to pay the bonus. I mean it’s possible that Pegula is out of money, but I think that is pretty wildly unlikely.

So at the end of the day, before we think management made a good choice for the return or for Jack taking over the team, while playing similar minutes and not taking the crazy minutes O’Reilly was made to play, let’s just remember for purely personal reasons we traded a star high value asset for less than he was worth specifically to avoid writing a relatively small check for a billionaire making a fortune in Buffalo.

On the whole I’m very happy the Pegula’s have helped the city and all the teams under them.

But I believe in honestly looking at things. And in this case, the simple truth is ego outweighed the fans and the team’s best interests for success, by simply not making the trade after the bonus was paid. They could have traded him anytime before the season and still giving Eichel the reins.

That doesn’t mean the picks or Tage will not eventually be useful pieces and help stop the bleeding from the trade. But we basically traded O’Reilly on a good contract as prices explode, for a similar return as a UFA E. Kane.

Pegula pooped on us for that one. On balance for having the guts to tank and spend lavishly in general, poop will wash right off. But I like to know when I’m getting pooped on.

 

[Buff15Sabres]

That’s not what I’m arguing. I’m saying Jack was essentially handed the opportunity to be top dog with this trade. Thats just a fact. How he responded to that is entirely on him. That he got the chance is due to the fact that ROR got traded.

It's impossible that we could've both kept RoR and named Jack captain?

I think we would've named Jack captain after giving him that contract, even if RoR is still on the team.

Maybe RoR wasn't a great "fit" for the team. That doesn't mean we needed to trade him at fire-sale price.

 

[joshjull]

It's impossible that we could've both kept RoR and named Jack captain?

I think we would've named Jack captain after giving him that contract, even if RoR is still on the team.

Maybe RoR wasn't a great "fit" for the team. That doesn't mean we needed to trade him at fire-sale price.

Where did I say anything about it being “impossible” to name Jack captain if ROR was still here?

Where did I say anything about the return in the trade?


Many of the responses to my posts in this thread are reminders why I try to avoid it. Its a lot of projecting what posters want to discuss as oppose to addressing what I actually posted. Its truly maddening.

 

[HaNotsri]

It’s ironic that this trade destroyed what little depth with had.
Only having one funcional line after half a season is pretty terrible.

 

[KingBran]

You think St Louis would trade OReilly back with the position they're in? Still seems well liked here

Blues fan here in peace. 100% no. ROR has been fantastic for us. Blues fans and FO love the guy. He is killing it and has been the only player that has given 100% every game he has played.

Blues problems are not because of ROR. Tarasenko isn't playing like Tarasenko, Bozak has been a dud. Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester havent been playing like Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester and Allen was total garbage to start the season.

I think more of Buffalo's success has to do with the emergence of Skinner and a lot less to do with ROR being traded.

I really see the trade and how the teams are playing as purely coincidental. Lets not forget the season isn't even half over yet. Blues have also played the least amount of games of any team in the NHL.

 

[Chainshot]

Blues fan here in peace. 100% no. ROR has been fantastic for us. Blues fans and FO love the guy. He is killing it and has been the only player that has given 100% every game he has played.

Blues problems are not because of ROR. Tarasenko isn't playing like Tarasenko, Bozak has been a dud. Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester havent been playing like Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester and Allen was total garbage to start the season.

I think more of Buffalo's success has to do with the emergence of Skinner and a lot less to do with ROR being traded.

I really see the trade and how the teams are playing as purely coincidental. Lets not forget the season isn't even half over yet. Blues have also played the least amount of games of any team in the NHL.

There are a number of issues helping them. Timely goaltending has been huge for Buffalo. But so too has the Dahlin pick and getting Bogosian healthy -- essentially they swapped up Broke-gosian into someone who is good and swapped out a sieve like Tennyson for Dahlin. They get up the ice so much better than they did. And the forwards mostly come back to make it happen. Jack taking a step has helped, Skinner being a fit there has helped.

 

[Woodhouse]

I just love waiting until the 2020 Draft or 2020-21 season to *maybe* get an asset that can consistently contribute from the ROR trade. Meanwhile, ROR's production doesn't skip a beat in STL and BUF could clearly use him at 2C. That's always been my constant gripe with the trade from the jump. Maybe a draft day trade with CAR would have been more palatable to me, but maybe Botts couldn't get both Lindholm and Skinner that way in fantasy-land, who really knows.

 

[Beerz]

You think St Louis would trade OReilly back with the position they're in? Still seems well liked here

I doubt they'd trade a guy they just paid 7 mill plus for 40 games. Not to mention he is their best player

 

[Beerz]

I just love waiting until the 2020 Draft or 2020-21 season to *maybe* get an asset that can consistently contribute from the ROR trade. Meanwhile, ROR's production doesn't skip a beat in STL and BUF could clearly use him at 2C. That's always been my constant gripe with the trade from the jump. Maybe a draft day trade with CAR would have been more palatable to me, but maybe Botts couldn't get both Lindholm and Skinner that way in fantasy-land, who really knows.

Probably couldn't get them to pay the bonus

 

[sabremike]

Probably couldn't get them to pay the bonus

From "from this point forwards the purpose of the Buffalo Sabres is to win the Stanley Cup" to "Let's give up our best tradable asset for pennies on the dollar to save $7 million bucks". Wonderful.

 

[sabremike]

One thing I always think of when the subject of ROR being this terrible person: on my Buffalo trip in the team store I met a father and daughter who were somehow affiliated with the team (may have been a charity or agency dedicated to public service, I can't recall exactly) and wearing ROR jerseys. They told me he was the greatest guy you will ever meet and how much they loved and missed him. Might be something for everyone to think about.

 

[enthusiast]

Let's not dance around suggesting a player has substance issues, whether or not it's true.

 

[Buff15Sabres]

Where did I say anything about it being “impossible” to name Jack captain if ROR was still here?

Where did I say anything about the return in the trade?


Many of the responses to my posts in this thread are reminders why I try to avoid it. Its a lot of projecting what posters want to discuss as oppose to addressing what I actually posted. Its truly maddening.

You didn't literally use the word "impossible" but you did say: "I’m saying Jack was essentially handed the opportunity to be top dog with this trade. Thats just a fact. How he responded to that is entirely on him. That he got the chance is due to the fact that ROR got traded."

I'm not trying to project here, but that seems like a pretty clear statement (Jack is only captain b/c of the RoR trade). If I misinterpreted your statement my original post was a question so you could clarify and elaborate on your position.



You didn't say anything about the return of the trade. That was just my general outlook on this trade and not in response to anything you said in that post.

 

[toomuchsauce]

I still can't believe they couldn't make something around Poehling work with Montreal. Poehling, [X] and Mtl 2nd round pick in 2019. How would that not work for either team?

 

[Havok89]

I still can't believe they couldn't make something around Poehling work with Montreal. Poehling, [X] and Mtl 2nd round pick in 2019. How would that not work for either team?

How is this any different than Tage Thompson + first ? You’ve still depleted any secondary scoring without immediate help.

 

[sabremike]

The fact that Botts made this deal with the idea of getting depth and all 3 guys he got were total washouts (2 have no business being in the NHL, 1 had modest value but literally quit on the team) is mindblowing. He traded a guy who is going to be an all star and didn't even get a single useful player in return. If the depth he had gotten was actually useful this whole thing wouldn't nearly be as bad a move as it is right now. Maybe some of his draft picks pan out but this move makes me seriously question his ability to evaluate talent.

 

[Gordo21]

The fact that Botts made this deal with the idea of getting depth and all 3 guys he got were total washouts (2 have no business being in the NHL, 1 had modest value but literally quit on the team) is mindblowing. He traded a guy who is going to be an all star and didn't even get a single useful player in return. If the depth he had gotten was actually useful this whole thing wouldn't nearly be as bad a move as it is right now. Maybe some of his draft picks pan out but this move makes me seriously question his ability to evaluate talent.

I actually liked the trade until Berglund quit on us

 

[Dreakon13]

The fact that Botts made this deal with the idea of getting depth and all 3 guys he got were total washouts (2 have no business being in the NHL, 1 had modest value but literally quit on the team) is mindblowing. He traded a guy who is going to be an all star and didn't even get a single useful player in return. If the depth he had gotten was actually useful this whole thing wouldn't nearly be as bad a move as it is right now. Maybe some of his draft picks pan out but this move makes me seriously question his ability to evaluate talent.

Not that the other side of this argument needs to be rehashed yet again, but I don't think it's necessarily "mindblowing". All it shows is that NHL depth is harder to acquire than it seems, and this trade was always about things that didn't necessarily mean an improvement in raw talent this year (cap flexibility, culture change, futures, ROR's bonus, etc).

I don't think we can blame the Berglund situation on Botts, and even if you wanted to blame him that unloaded cap space is HUGE in our favor.

I don't think Thompson's career is over after this year personally, as it seems many do believe. He's got tools, just needs to find his toolbox. Considering we have 6-7 other players struggling along with him, it'll be that much harder for him to work his way out of it.

Sobotka was a dump. /shrug

And the picks will be nice.

It was a huge trade, possibly tenure defining for Botts, and I get people's urge to put it under the microscope every step of the way... but there's also nothing wrong with just taking a breath, keeping an open mind and leaving it be for a little while as the pieces play out.

 

[joshjull]

You didn't literally use the word "impossible" but you did say: "I’m saying Jack was essentially handed the opportunity to be top dog with this trade. Thats just a fact. How he responded to that is entirely on him. That he got the chance is due to the fact that ROR got traded."

I'm not trying to project here, but that seems like a pretty clear statement (Jack is only captain b/c of the RoR trade). If I misinterpreted your statement my original post was a question so you could clarify and elaborate on your position.



You didn't say anything about the return of the trade. That was just my general outlook on this trade and not in response to anything you said in that post.

Fair enough I’ll elaborate.

Think of it like this. We had a 1-2 punch of Jack/ROR who were equally valuable while also being in a tier above everyone else. To keep with the analogy I’ll call them the co-top dogs. They shared that burden last year. Remove ROR via trade and you now have Jack alone in the top dog tier. The trade also effectively makes Jack captain with enormous expectations and pressure on him coming into year 1 of his huge contract.

Jack’s play prior to this season was good but wasn’t going to be nearly good enough with ROR gone. He would need to raise his game to an entirely different level to bring what was needed. All while simultaneously handling the role of captain.

The top dog comment wasn’t about Jack getting named captain. It was about everything that was in front of Jack after ROR was moved out. Being named captain was only part of it and something that could happen with or without ROR here.

My question was more along the lines of would Jack have elevated his game to the level its at right now with ROR here? Or was it the challenge, jolt to the system or whatever you want to call it of ROR’s departure that helped push him to where he is now. I don’t know.

 

[joshjull]

When I think about this trade through the prism of its impact on Jack it makes me wonder about Botts mindset. Was he supremely confident in Jack’s ability to step up into the vacuum? He must have been or it was reckless. putting so much pressure on Jack. Between the contract and the ROR trade there was zero room for Jack not to become what he is right now. If Jack wasn’t up to the challenge we would be royally f***ed. Don’t get me wrong. I expected Jack to be the player we see now. I just wasn’t t counting on it happening at the start of this season.

 

[debaser66]

So the plan of culture change was just play the top line in 2018/19.

 

[nickdawg95]

yo guys are such spazzes seriously remember when we would lose by 3-4 goals night in and night out, now we get an OTL and you guys turn into RoR " woooe me this is terrible i don't love this team" we needed to get rid of the emo for the greater good of this team.

Now we need to bring up the young bucks,

Oloff and Smith called up in the new year

Elle Thompson down

in all honestly thompson would of never made the team had smith not gotten injured

 

[Dreakon13]

When I think about this trade through the prism of its impact on Jack it makes me wonder about Botts mindset. Was he supremely confident in Jack’s ability to step up into the vacuum? He must have been or it was reckless. putting so much pressure on Jack. Between the contract and the ROR trade there was zero room for Jack not to become what he is right now. If Jack wasn’t up to the challenge we would be royally ****ed. Don’t get me wrong. I expected Jack to be the player we see now. I just wasn’t t counting on it happening at the start of this season.

Sounds like one of those questions that we'll never really know the answer to, but everyone will have very strong opinions on why they believe what they do.

IMO, Botts pulled the trigger on the ROR trade for a few reasons but mostly for the culture shock. There were only a few players he could move to really do that, and the others were all either younger, different and/or more coveted positions, or higher on the food chain than ROR organizationally. I don't think he believed any one player would step up as Eichel has, but rather hoping everyone would kick it up a notch after sending that message and see who floats to the top.

That being said, he for sure gave Eichel a handsome contract believing he could be the player we're seeing this year. Maybe it's all connected and there's a certain reckless element to it, but I have a hard time faulting the guy for taking more drastic measures with a perpetually awful team and a reportedly toxic lockerroom.

 

[toomuchsauce]

Trading one very good player for 3 bad players is objectively bad. So far, the best asset acquired in this trade is the fact that one of the bad players mysteriously quit mid-season.

That first round pick better be good.