The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Yatzhee]

Yes I am. Look at Jack's contract. Only 2 years have a July bonus payment. That would be the two years a lockout could happen. Murray, as with most things during his tenure, overdid something he didn't have to. I'm hoping you can grasp the issue is the structure of ROR's deal not his 7.5mil cap hit or that he got a long term big money contract like that.

Like your previous post you addressed nothing and were snarky. There is nothing remotely shocking an owner wouldn't want to pay a 7.5mil "bonus payment" to a player heading out the door. The only reason that bonus is even in play is our previous GM. Is it the most egregious thing a GM could do? Of course not, but it adds to the list.

Well said.

 

[joshjull]

I'm still stunned the character vet we brought in to replace ROR quit on the team 1/3 of way through the season. I mean what the ****.

This is something. A player steps away from the NHL to deal with whatever he had to in his personal life to get back to a happy place. A decision that's going to cost him millions of dollars which hints at the severity of the situation. That's being used to score cheap points in trade debate? #winning

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Basically, every season O'Reilly was a Sabre would have a countdown to trade day drama decision built in to the contract. Trade him in the off-season before the bonus, get less value because the other team instantly pays out 7.5 mil. Trade him after the bonus, hope you get enough to justify that you already paid his season salary, and pay him 7.5 mil to be on the team for another couple days/weeks. It's a @#$% sandwich for an owner on either side of the trade to handle.

 

[joshjull]

Basically, every season O'Reilly was a Sabre would have a countdown to trade day drama decision built in to the contract. Trade him in the off-season before the bonus, get less value because the other team instantly pays out 7.5 mil. Trade him after the bonus, hope you get enough to justify that you already paid his season salary, and pay him 7.5 mil to be on the team for another couple days/weeks. It's a @#$% sandwich for an owner on either side of the trade to handle.

In fairness its only an issues if they choose to trade him.

 

[sabremike]

"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence, will be to win a Stanley Cup."

Here's something I've been thinking about: if this trade never happens the most devastating flaw this team has (besides a coach with the tactical acumen of a bag of hammers) would not exist and we would be headed to the playoffs for sure. The playoff revenue would've covered quite a bit of that $7.5 million bonus. Also if they pay the bonus, get actual things of value back that can help now instead of at least half a decade from now and it gets us into the playoffs same thing.

 

[DJN21]

Here's something I've been thinking about: if this trade never happens the most devastating flaw this team has (besides a coach with the tactical acumen of a bag of hammers) would not exist and we would be headed to the playoffs for sure. The playoff revenue would've covered quite a bit of that $7.5 million bonus. Also if they pay the bonus, get actual things of value back that can help now instead of at least half a decade from now and it gets us into the playoffs same thing.

bring back hockey heaven so all my old shirts are relevant again!

 

[Gordo21]

Here's something I've been thinking about: if this trade never happens the most devastating flaw this team has (besides a coach with the tactical acumen of a bag of hammers) would not exist and we would be headed to the playoffs for sure. The playoff revenue would've covered quite a bit of that $7.5 million bonus. Also if they pay the bonus, get actual things of value back that can help now instead of at least half a decade from now and it gets us into the playoffs same thing.

So you don't think we should have traded O'Reilly?

 

[sabrebuild]

Is this supposed to be a clever counterpoint? I don't blame ownership for not wanting to pay 7.5mil to a player they were moving on from. His contract is yet another of Murray's **** ups. No reason for his contract to be almost entirely made up of July 1st bonus payments each year. If the premise was making it lockout proof then only two years needed to be that. As in the only 2 possible years the CBA could expire and lead to a lockout. Its not like those years were a mystery. He was such a stupid GM

To not blame ownership for what your describing required two assumptions.

First, that ownership had no idea about O’Reilly’s contract and just let Murray do a deal that Pegula wasn’t comfortable with. Which is pretty difficult to accept, given how involved Pegulas shown to be.

Second, that we the fans, who pay for this whole fun game, and the people that management has told that they only care about winning, should bear the burden of watching a worse product over a few million bucks.

In a regular person’s life, ya I can see not wanting to avoid paying a big chunk of cash for what you might perceive as a small gain.

In pro sports that is literally the name of the game. Spending way too much money to find every advantage. That decision is the biggest spit in the fans eye of this whole thing.

I mean think about the math. For Pegula, 7 million is the equivalent of like $200 for a middle class earner. For the price of Glass seats, Pegula took a lesser offer.

I don’t see how you can’t blame ownership for that.

Jj, it’d be like you putting one of your kids in a less advantageous position in school, work, social, whatever, because you had a pissing match with someone and you were not willing to help your kid out by sucking up your pride and forking over $100 bucks.

 

[Gordo21]

Does anybody think that maybe, just maybe, it may be time to move forward from this?

 

[ZZamboni]

Does anybody think that maybe, just maybe, it may be time to move forward from this?

If you mean move on and don’t discuss this topic again? Well, you can always use the cool feature that ignores threads so you don’t see them. Or continue to see the thread title but choose not to click into it.
Others want to discuss from time to time, this topic. Now you can take swipes at those that want to discuss it, if that makes you feel better. But it’s unnecesary and won’t stop those that want to discuss this topic still.

 

[Gordo21]

If you mean move on and don’t discuss this topic again? Well, you can always use the cool feature that ignores threads so you don’t see them. Or continue to see the thread title but choose not to click into it.
Others want to discuss from time to time, this topic. Now you can take swipes at those that want to discuss it, if that makes you feel better. But it’s unnecesary and won’t stop those that want to discuss this topic still.

Thanks!!

I may go a different direction however and choose to discuss No Goal and Wide right

 

[joshjull]

To not blame ownership for what your describing required two assumptions.

First, that ownership had no idea about O’Reilly’s contract and just let Murray do a deal that Pegula wasn’t comfortable with. Which is pretty difficult to accept, given how involved Pegulas shown to be.

Second, that we the fans, who pay for this whole fun game, and the people that management has told that they only care about winning, should bear the burden of watching a worse product over a few million bucks.

In a regular person’s life, ya I can see not wanting to avoid paying a big chunk of cash for what you might perceive as a small gain.

In pro sports that is literally the name of the game. Spending way too much money to find every advantage. That decision is the biggest spit in the fans eye of this whole thing.

I mean think about the math. For Pegula, 7 million is the equivalent of like $200 for a middle class earner. For the price of Glass seats, Pegula took a lesser offer.

I don’t see how you can’t blame ownership for that.

Jj, it’d be like you putting one of your kids in a less advantageous position in school, work, social, whatever, because you had a pissing match with someone and you were not willing to help your kid out by sucking up your pride and forking over $100 bucks.

This is quite the mental gymnastics and life parallel.

** I do blame ownership for failing spectacularly with their Murray hire. But Murray’s individual mistakes and blunders are his own. I’m continually amazed at the lengths some posters go to defend him.

**No it’s not at all like what I would or would not do for my kids. Do you even grasp how batty it is to compare what a businessman would do in a business situation with how I would handle a situation for one of my kids? The factors driving those decisions are not the same. Unless you think the Pegulas love Botts like they love their own son.

**No I don’t blame the owners for not wanting to hand a player a 7.5mil parting gift. Nor do I view it as them spitting in the face of fans.

**Of course the owner knows about the contract. Never said otherwise. He signed off on it after Murray negotiated it, was probably also consulted while the negotiations took place. Are you advocating he should have “meddled” and not trusted his GM? Odd stance coming from you.

** You say pro sports is about “spending way too much to gain any advantage”. You say that it’s the name of the game. Curious that mindset was missing when you were vigorously arguing against Jack’s contract and hammering Botts over it. It’s almost as if your standards ebb and flow depending on your target. Handing 7.5mil to ROR as he walks out the door = good. Paying Jack top dollar = bad.

**I don’t think it would have done much to add value. Especially with a team like the Blues who didn’t care about paying the bonus. Why would they suddenly add to any deal because we paid the bonus? If anything Botts was bluffing with a weak hand.

 

[Aladyyn]

I can't believe we're blaming Tim Murray for acquiring a great player and signing him to a perfectly reasonable contract.

 

[OkimLom]

This is quite the mental gymnastics and life parallel.

** I do blame ownership for failing spectacularly with their Murray hire. But Murray’s individual mistakes and blunders are his own. I’m continually amazed at the lengths some posters go to defend him.

**No it’s not at all like what I would or would not do for my kids. Do you even grasp how batty it is to compare what a businessman would do in a business situation with how I would handle a situation for one of my kids? The factors driving those decisions are not the same. Unless you think the Pegulas love Botts like they love their own son.

**No I don’t blame the owners for not wanting to hand a player a 7.5mil parting gift. Nor do I view it as them spitting in the face of fans.

**Of course the owner knows about the contract. Never said otherwise. He signed off on it after Murray negotiated it, was probably also consulted while the negotiations took place. Are you advocating he should have “meddled” and not trusted his GM? Odd stance coming from you.

** You say pro sports is about “spending way too much to gain any advantage”. You say that it’s the name of the game. Curious that mindset was missing when you were vigorously arguing against Jack’s contract and hammering Botts over it. It’s almost as if your standards ebb and flow depending on your target. Handing 7.5mil to ROR as he walks out the door = good. Paying Jack top dollar = bad.

**I don’t think it would have done much to add value. Especially with a team like the Blues who didn’t care about paying the bonus. Why would they suddenly add to any deal because we paid the bonus? If anything Botts was bluffing with a weak hand.

I think there's a huge gap of information that us fans are not privy to. There may be a situation where it's similar to what you discussed about the bonus, it may not be. I think at this point, anybody who can say for certain what happened, no matter which way you want to look at it, is only going off speculation. If it did have to do with bonus money, then it will be quite interesting to see if Skinner gets any type of bonus in his contract and how much that would be, if he does re-sign here.

 

[joshjull]

I think there's a huge gap of information that us fans are not privy to. There may be a situation where it's similar to what you discussed about the bonus, it may not be. I think at this point, anybody who can say for certain what happened, no matter which way you want to look at it, is only going off speculation. If it did have to do with bonus money, then it will be quite interesting to see if Skinner gets any type of bonus in his contract and how much that would be, if he does re-sign here.

I didn’t say he was traded because of the “bonus”. I’m saying the decision to move him was already made. So I get it if the owner didn’t want to pay him 7.5mil as he went out the door.

Skinner will likely get the same structure Jack did. Where salary is paid as a bonus the two years the NHL could get locked out.

 

[joshjull]

I can't believe we're blaming Tim Murray for acquiring a great player and signing him to a perfectly reasonable contract.

I can believe you still aren’t grasping it’s about the structure of it. Honestly everything you’ve posted on this has shown a very poor grasp of the topic being put forth.

 

[sabrebuild]

This is quite the mental gymnastics and life parallel.

** I do blame ownership for failing spectacularly with their Murray hire. But Murray’s individual mistakes and blunders are his own. I’m continually amazed at the lengths some posters go to defend him.

**No it’s not at all like what I would or would not do for my kids. Do you even grasp how batty it is to compare what a businessman would do in a business situation with how I would handle a situation for one of my kids? The factors driving those decisions are not the same. Unless you think the Pegulas love Botts like they love their own son.

**No I don’t blame the owners for not wanting to hand a player a 7.5mil parting gift. Nor do I view it as them spitting in the face of fans.

**Of course the owner knows about the contract. Never said otherwise. He signed off on it after Murray negotiated it, was probably also consulted while the negotiations took place. Are you advocating he should have “meddled” and not trusted his GM? Odd stance coming from you.

** You say pro sports is about “spending way too much to gain any advantage”. You say that it’s the name of the game. Curious that mindset was missing when you were vigorously arguing against Jack’s contract and hammering Botts over it. It’s almost as if your standards ebb and flow depending on your target. Handing 7.5mil to ROR as he walks out the door = good. Paying Jack top dollar = bad.

**I don’t think it would have done much to add value. Especially with a team like the Blues who didn’t care about paying the bonus. Why would they suddenly add to any deal because we paid the bonus? If anything Botts was bluffing with a weak hand.

It’s really not that complicated.

First paragraph, I’m not defending Murray at all, it’s weird that you read it that way. I’m saying it’s odd for you to give Pegula a pass saying Murray made a horrible deal, as if it was him in a vacuum. One, I don’t think that contract breakdown is particularly bad league wide for a player of O’Reilly’s caliber. And I suspect it was part of getting O’Reilly to sign and not test out free agency. But either way, feel free to blame Murray for the contract, I just don’t see how it takes Pegula off the hook in the slightest. It’s not about whether Pegula should have meddled, it’s just a matter of him knowing fully well what the contract required.

Paragraph 2, it’s only batty if you took a metaphor super literal. And Botts wouldn’t be the kids in that metaphor, the fans are. Apologies if that was difficult to follow. But if we are on the subjective difference of a businessman, Pegula can’t have it both ways. You don’t get credit for talking about oil wells if you need cash and at the same time say it’s a business decision to trade a player for less to save a few dollars.

Paragraph 3, It’s not handing a player a parting gift. O’Reilly was getting his money one way or the other. What Pegula chose was not getting a better return so he didn’t have to write the check.

Now you may not see that as spitting in the fans face, we can just disagree. But I don’t really understand how trading an asset for less, to save a tiny amount of money in Pegula’s sports empire, that without doubt hurt them on the ice, at the bare minimum for the short term, is not a slap to the fans. But hey we have only been patient for 6-7 years...

Paragraph 4, answered this already.

Paragraph 5, I’ll be as pleasant as I can here, but this attack is both beneath you and completely missing the point. By a lot. Spending way too much money to win is spending a ton of money on coaches, equipment, analytics, ice improvements, etc. It’s compliance buyouts that don’t hurt your cap. It’s spending more on scouting then the state of Montana has tax revenue.

Overpaying a year early a player in a cap world, with a finite amount of resources, with all of the contractual leverage, is a completely different topic. If you think those two things O’Reilly payment is good, Eichel top dollar is bad, is an accurate description, I think you might have hit your head. It’s almost like you don’t get it at all.

Paragraph 6, confirmation that you don’t get it, even when not failing at snark. I won’t guarantee what could have been available. But there is always more value with less cash having to be paid out. And without a time crunch they could have dragged it out till the fall if they absolutely had to remove the tumor. But you know that.

The reveal tho is that obviously St. Louis was willing to pay the bonus, arguing about how much more they would give up to avoid the bonus is irrelevant. The point is how many other teams, particularly cash poor teams that you eliminated by making a part of the deal a huge balloon payment. This is a big deal for at least ten teams, particularly teams that have financial issues. Like Arizona or Florida. And the ripple effect of perhaps getting a better deal from one of those poor teams who could use a top center. Or even more likely, the market in general is more competitive, forcing St.Louis to up their offer.

Basic market question. If your St. Louis, would you possibly make your best offer when you know the Sabres are trying to avoid this payment and you know how few teams are in a position to take that payment on and are ready to move significant pieces? Or do you offer some meh futures, your third or fourth best prospect and cap dumps? Knowing full well if the Sabres don’t take it, you can always try again to up the offer in assets and avoid the salary?

If you want to talk “business”, then our businessman was penny wise and pound foolish. He ran an auction with the “threat” of charging more after the bonus and the Blues made a lowball offer and it worked.

Ego makes for dumb business.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Well, Botts sure did change the sour attitude in the lockerroom this year. The players he added really brought this team together, and it's showing.

Or...is it possible that losing a lot weighs on professional athletes who wouldn't be where they are today unless they were competitive as f***. Hopefully, the craziness after this Carolina game gets one of Housley or Botts canned before Botts can botch another trade to 'fix' the culture.

 

[Jim Bob]

Well, Botts sure did change the sour attitude in the lockerroom this year. The players he added really brought this team together, and it's showing.

Or...is it possible that losing a lot weighs on professional athletes who wouldn't be where they are today unless they were competitive as ****. Hopefully, the craziness after this Carolina game gets one of Housley or Botts canned before Botts can botch another trade to 'fix' the culture.

Winning cures everything.

Losing causes everything.

Just win, baby.

 

[Member 308457]

Unfortunately, the Sabres got ripped badly twice each on the O'Reilly and Kane deals. In the first two deals, Buffalo's rookie GM gave up players who are now thriving with their new teams in return for guys who had to be traded again, once this GM was fired. With the second trades of ROR/Kane, Buffalo's next rookie GM received throw-away players in return for O'Reilly and Kane, who are now thriving away from Buffalo too. Ultimately, Tage Thompson and Bogosian might be our only payback from all four of these disaster blockbuster trades.

 

[GellMann]

I can't believe St. Louis has managed to overcome a crippling locker room personality and his PPG pace and outstanding defensive play from the best 1C they've had in decades. Look at them in a playoff spot. If you just removed the anchor from their 1C spot, they'd probably win the cup and President's trophy and Lombardi trophy and a Nobel Prize.

 

[sufferer]

I can't believe St. Louis has managed to overcome a crippling locker room personality and his PPG pace and outstanding defensive play from the best 1C they've had in decades. Look at them in a playoff spot. If you just removed the anchor from their 1C spot, they'd probably win the cup and President's trophy and Lombardi trophy and a Nobel Prize.

I'm not even sure what I'm allowed to express in this thread but I like this post.

 

[Beerz]

Yup.



Trade still sucks.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I'm not even sure what I'm allowed to express in this thread but I like this post.

There's really not much left to add, but I'm sure I'll find a way. All that's left is the bitterness that peaks after every passing game. I have so much disgust with this franchise, atm. From the top all the way down to Housley- it's been a gongshow.

 

[slip]

Unfortunately, the Sabres got ripped badly twice each on the O'Reilly and Kane deals. In the first two deals, Buffalo's rookie GM gave up players who are now thriving with their new teams in return for guys who had to be traded again, once this GM was fired. With the second trades of ROR/Kane, Buffalo's next rookie GM received throw-away players in return for O'Reilly and Kane, who are now thriving away from Buffalo too. Ultimately, Tage Thompson and Bogosian might be our only payback from all four of these disaster blockbuster trades.

Grigorenko and Zadarov are hardly thriving for Colorado. Compher seems to be doing okay.

However you slice it, Murray gave up little for ROR, and Botts got even less back when he traded him.