Post-Game Talk: The Russian Bear Wakes Up - Pens Win!

[Gurglesons]

I wouldn't describe Malkin as a north-south guy at all, his center drives from behind his own net notwithstanding. His mindset is more all over the place, and he's often benefitted from guys like Talbot or Malone or Rust who were more north-south than he is. I think you've identified one of the issues but there are a lot more. They don't connect anywhere on the ice. Zucker constantly defers and he doesn't understand how Malkin plays. They just don't fit.

Yes Malkin works with players that play a north south game like himself.

 

[Empoleon8771]

All stats are terrible in isolation. Expected goals for not least.
Malkin had just 9 PP points during the period in question. He led or was at the very top of the league in even strength points per game at the end that period.
Why is this years team worse than last years team with Crosby absent and with Murray being horrible in the first half of the season? Outside of the PP I don't think that is the case outside a couple of games where we were too shorthanded on D (but still made it respectable).
No, but when that first line does not produce ES and is not outscoring mostly bland opposition, then it is enormously weird to compare it to one of the best and most productive lines we've had in 15 years.

If the Crosby line has been so unproductive, why do they have the same exact GF% as what the Malkin line had?

The Malkin line was more productive, but they also gave up more goals. Crosby's line is producing at a pretty good rate (around 3 goals/60) while not getting scored on at all (around 1.5 goals/60). Malkin's line was at something like 4.5 goals/60 and 2.25 goals/60. Those both end up the same GF%, and I'm willing to put a huge majority of the Crosby's line "lack of production" (in quotes because it's still really good production) on the team being a mess so far this year.

 

[LOGiK]

The thought of making a "Godfather" type offer for Barzal to be the next franchise player here kept crossing my mind yesterday.

I'd take pretty much nothing off the table aside from Sid & Geno.

1) Rust or Zucker take your pick. Even Jake though this nullifies the below line.
2) Marino or POJ take your pick
3) Poulin
4) Picks, any of them

Yep... he isn't quite as complete as Sid but my goodness.... the speed... the talent.

Even Sid saw barz ready to crank it up and said 'nah' when he was on his way to take it to pojo.

Does he even want to be on NYI long term? He signed a really small amount of time.... so I'd say there is that little possibility ..... one day........

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Frankly if you want to change up the top-6, I think the lines should be:

Guentzel-Crosby-Zucker
Kapanen-Malkin-Rust

That's the "best" setup based on who seems to mesh with who. But people are just adamant about wanting Guentzel and Malkin together, to the point where they'll blame any sort of bad play specifically on Sullivan not going with the line combinations that they want.

I got slammed on this board for suggesting the same thing in the summer.

Everyone is so scared to try Zucker on his off-wing.

That being said, I think people are writing off Zuck on that line too early. He's got 3 goals in his last 6 with those boys. Last 2 games he's been largely invisible, it's true. No shots.
But we gotta ask ourselves, what are our expectations of Zucker? I see him as a guy who should score at a 25g, 25a pace over a full season. Those stats get boosted to 30+30 if they use him on PP1. When he scored 33 in Minnesota, 7 of those were PPG's. We don't give him that chance here, so it's not fair to hold him to that standard.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Yes Malkin works with players that play a north south game like himself.

I think this assessment of Malkin is way off. He's just not a north south guy. He doesn't play that way and he doesn't develop the play that way. He's a puck carrier but that doesn't mean he's north south. The N-S guys help him simplify the play and they open up space for him to wheel and deal. They aren't the same type of player.

 

[Giskard]

Why would you ever consider breaking up that top line?

The top line is literally globetrotting right now.

Some of the stances that HFPens take just make me laugh. Guentzel-Crosby-Rust tearing apart the league since being put together? I don't care, I've been screaming about how Guentzel-Malkin-Rust needs to be a line since 2020 so I'm going to still say it! What makes it even more crazy is despite their crappy analytics, the 2nd line has been very productive since it has been put together.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust this year has so far outperformed what Guentzel-Malkin-Rust was able to do last year. You're basically advocating breaking up a stellar top line just because Malkin is playing like poop. Malkin has 2 great wingers on his line already, he needs to figure his shit out himself.

Yep because the things right now are working ... great?!

I don't see Guentzel-Crosby-Rust playing anywhere near the Guentzel-Malikin-Rust of last season, and Zucker played good with Malkin maybe one game?

If things were working right now, I wouldn't mind, but this team needs a lot more from the 2 top lines if they want to add to their single win in regulation. Yes the D and goalie sucks too, but those are harder to fix then try to switch some linemates. But evidently Sullivan thinks differently.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yep... he isn't quite as complete as Sid but my goodness.... the speed... the talent.

Even Sid saw barz ready to crank it up and said 'nah' when he was on his way to take it to pojo.

Does he even want to be on NYI long term? He signed a really small amount of time.... so I'd say there is that little possibility ..... one day........

The hard part for me is that he's from my hometown. Got mixed feelings when he's torching us.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yep because the things right now are working ... great?!

I don't see Guentzel-Crosby-Rust playing anywhere near the Guentzel-Malikin-Rust of last season, and Zucker played good with Malkin maybe one game?

If things were working right now, I wouldn't mind, but this team needs a lot more from the 2 top lines if they want to add to their single win in regulation. Yes the D and goalie sucks too, but those are harder to fix then try to switch some linemates. But evidently Sullivan thinks differently.

I posted this in a different reply, but if you're changing up the top-6 I'd rather the lines be Guentzel-Crosby-Zucker and Kapanen-Malkin-Rust. To me, that is the best setup in terms of line fit with their wingers, because I think Zucker and Guentzel fit best with Crosby while Rust and Kapanen fit best with Malkin. Kapanen has played entire seasons on LW with the Leafs, so he's certainly experienced with playing that role.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think this assessment of Malkin is way off. He's just not a north south guy. He doesn't play that way and he doesn't develop the play that way. He's a puck carrier but that doesn't mean he's north south. The N-S guys help him simplify the play and they open up space for him to wheel and deal. They aren't the same type of player.

I don’t get how you watch Malkin and think he is not a North South guy. He basically loves to go through 3 guys on the rush by himself all the time.

Malkin ain’t out there making high IQ passes behind the net. His game is built on playing simply, straightforward with his size and throwing in some creative flourish. It’s why Kapanen is working out with him right now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Weren't you adamant about keeping Kessel and playing Rust on LW?

Again, it's so obvious to see through your argument. You want to justify Guentzel and Malkin together, so you're just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks to rationalize it.

Yes, when I thought one line needed it and it was more attractive than the alternatives.

You're advocating moving two wingers to their off-wings. Alright, so is throwing 2 lines in the blender with unfamiliar combinations and 2 players on their off-wing really a more promising option than reuniting G-M-R - which we already know works great - and Zucker and Crosby, who you claim already showed good chemistry with one another? Seems like a lot more unknowns to me, and I'm not sure what the upside is supposed to be.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, when I thought one line needed it and it was more attractive than the alternatives.

You're advocating moving two wingers to their off-wings. Alright, so is throwing 2 lines in the blender with unfamiliar combinations and 2 players on their off-wing really a more promising option than reuniting G-M-R - which we already know works great - and Zucker and Crosby, who you claim already showed good chemistry with one another? Seems like a lot more unknowns to me, and I'm not sure what the upside is supposed to be.

That "one line that needed it" would have had Simon or Sheary on RW on the top line and Rust on LW on the 2nd line, so that wasn't "one guy on his off-wing".

Why would Kapanen, who has extensive experience on LW, and Zucker on their off-wings somehow be any different than Rust and Simon/Sheary on their off-wings?

 

[LOGiK]

The hard part for me is that he's from my hometown. Got mixed feelings when he's torching us.

Cool.... Im looking at his capfriendly page...
Coquitlam I'm guessing?

Never heard. You still there?

 

[Tender Rip]

If the Crosby line has been so unproductive, why do they have the same exact GF% as what the Malkin line had?

The Malkin line was more productive, but they also gave up more goals.

Look, for me this is about not disrespecting last years GMR just to pump up your Malkin BS.
Geno was individually terrible for almost all of the last game, but has otherwise been getting better and better after a poor start to the season for sure.

Then this becomes the regular old bash Malkin or Malkin fanboy thing whereby to relativize things it becomes Sid vs. Geno.

Sid has 4 goals this season. Two PP goals in the first two Flyers games and two OT goals. He has yet to score ES. He has two multi-point games on the season. He has had enough bad and/or lazy plays that nothing this season would come close to meeting any of his best spells of hockey.
During GMR last season on the other hand, Geno was amazing. It was one of the best stretches either he or Sid has ever had.
Guentzel was better then than he is now (or ever was), and Rust was at least as good as now. Yet you find it reasonable to opine that GCR have done better so far this season. It is absurd having this conversation.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Look, for me this is about not disrespecting last years GMR just to pump up your Malkin BS.
Geno was individually terrible for almost all of the last game, but has otherwise been getting better and better after a poor start to the season for sure.

Then this becomes the regular old bash Malkin or Malkin fanboy thing whereby to relativize things it becomes Sid vs. Geno.

Sid has 4 goals this season. Two PP goals in the first two Flyers games and two OT goals. He has yet to score ES. He has two multi-point games on the season. He has had enough bad and/or lazy plays that nothing this season would come close to meeting any of his best spells of hockey.
During GMR last season on the other hand, Geno was amazing. It was one of the best stretches either he or Sid has ever had.
Guentzel was better then than he is now (or ever was), and Rust was at least as good as now. Yet you find it reasonable to opine that GCR have done better so far this season. It is absurd having this conversation.

Where was I disrespecting GMR last year? They were a fantastic line last year. Where was I ever disrespecting them?

Again, the numbers say what the numbers say. You not wanting to believe them is entirely a you problem. In terms of actual results, the Crosby and Malkin lines have had the same exact GF% while Crosby's line has been a shade better analytically. That's a fact.

 

[Gurglesons]

I would keep Rust and Kapanen with their RWs and just flop Guentzel and Zucker.

Since that ain’t happening I’d flop ZAR or Tanev at this point tbh with Zucker.

 

[radapex]

I don't think Cooke used as much energy as Tanev does.

Tanev playing the way he does, he'll be dead tired playing that many minutes at 5v5. Unless you cut back his PK time.

Cooke was also simply more skilled than Tanev is.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I don’t get how you watch Malkin and think he is not a North South guy. He basically loves to go through 3 guys on the rush by himself all the time.

Malkin ain’t out there making high IQ passes behind the net. His game is built on playing simply, straightforward with his size and throwing in some creative flourish. It’s why Kapanen is working out with him right now.

Malkin loves to skate with the puck, that doesn't make him a north south guy. He's also not an east west player despite what the critics like to say. He loves to cycle the puck in the zone. Throughout his career, his best lines score all ways but they dominate in the O zone through possession and multiple touches and opening up space. Malkin liking to try to drive through the D a couple times a game doesn't change that. There's a simple, grinder mindset attached to the north south type and Malkin isn't that. He benefits from those players not because they are like him but because they open up space for him through their speed and tenacity on the puck. He works best with north south guys who also have a brain.

I think you're confusing the highlight reel center drives that Malkin sometimes does with a defined player type that he's never been and never will be. I also don't think it matters. We have 15 years (more if you go back to the KHL) of evidence of what kind of player works with Malkin. Go back through all the years and you will never find a Zucker.

 

[radapex]

Many did last year based on Crosby's performance - not Zucker's - while justifying Guentzel's move to Crosby's line as soon as he returned from injury.

But if you believe otherwise, then it should logically follow that for the good of the team, Guentzel and Rust should move to Malkin's line.

Here's the big problem... or concern. We have 1 line working well right now, and I fully believe that swapping the wingers is more likely to leave us with 0 working lines than with 2.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Here's the big problem... or concern. We have 1 line working well right now, and I fully believe that swapping the winters is more likely to leave us with 0 working lines than with 2.

Here's the amazing thing about line changes: if they do not work you can go back to what you were doing. I can't stand the argument of "it might not work because of x reason." f***ing try it and find out.

 

[LOGiK]

Cooke was also simply more skilled than Tanev is.

Cooke is one of those old school hard-nosed trouble makers and tough enough to back it up with enough skill to be useful when he's not causing havoc...

There aren't many of those players left anymore...

Cooke is one of my top 5 favorite players non sid / geno.

Who in the nhl today plays a game similar to cooke?

 

[Empoleon8771]

What's weird about Zucker so far this year is that he's not shooting a ton less this year than he was last year. In terms of shot attempts, he's at 40 in 12 games this year after being at 57 in 15 games last year. That is less (3.33 vs 3.8 shot attempts per game), but it's not crazily so. He's just doing a really shitty job at getting shots on net, fewer than half of his shot attempts have resulted in shots (19 shots on 40 attempts). That makes me think his main issue this year is decision making, where he's shooting at shitty times and passing up shots at shitty times.

Based on the eye test, I think that is supported because he seems to be deferring to Malkin a lot and then taking bad shot attempts if Malkin gets the puck back to him. I think bumping him to the bottom-6 may do good things to help him regain his shoot first mentality. I think the issue is I don't really like any of the other options to take Zucker's spot on that 3rd line, even if McCann was healthy.

I don't think Tanev would do anything for Malkin. Tanev's entire game is "skate fast and hit people", which is basically what Zucker while playing shitty is doing in that spot right now. ZAR looked good last night, but do you really want to put ZAR on your 2nd line?

 

[dogthateats]

Is GCR even that much more productive offensively than ZMK this year? Isn’t it something like:
GCR: 11 goals with 3 PPG
ZMK: 8 goals with 1 PPG

Plus there are OT goals

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is GCR even that much more productive offensively than ZMK this year? Isn’t it something like:
GCR: 11 goals with 3 PPG
ZMK: 8 goals with 1 PPG

Plus there are OT goals

You're right but I also think ZMK's production has been pretty good, though.

At 5v5, the Penguins really haven't been that bad in terms of production. They're 12th in GF/60 with 2.58, which is pretty similar to where they were last year (10th with 2.7). I think their lack of production on the powerplay has been a much bigger problem than their overall production at ES, they're pretty close to 3 goals a game this year despite having a completely incompetent PP.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust has a 3.91 GF/60 at 5v5 as a line, while Zucker-Malkin-Rust has a 3.83 GF/60 as a line. Both lines have been pretty productive since being put together. The reason they haven't been winning that many games with those lines together is because their bottom-6 scoring completely disappeared when the top-6 started scoring and they can't keep pucks out of their own net. The reason for concern with the ZMK line is that their analytics are balls, which kinda matches what I've seen from the eye test. They're scoring at a good rate but I don't think it's sustainable with how they're playing.

For comparison, GMR was at a GF/60 of 4.87 last year, but they also were getting scored on a lot more with a GA/60 of 2.44. Both of the lines this year are around 1.5-2 GA/60 at 5v5.

 

[Gurglesons]

Malkin loves to skate with the puck, that doesn't make him a north south guy. He's also not an east west player despite what the critics like to say. He loves to cycle the puck in the zone. Throughout his career, his best lines score all ways but they dominate in the O zone through possession and multiple touches and opening up space. Malkin liking to try to drive through the D a couple times a game doesn't change that. There's a simple, grinder mindset attached to the north south type and Malkin isn't that. He benefits from those players not because they are like him but because they open up space for him through their speed and tenacity on the puck. He works best with north south guys who also have a brain.

I think you're confusing the highlight reel center drives that Malkin sometimes does with a defined player type that he's never been and never will be. I also don't think it matters. We have 15 years (more if you go back to the KHL) of evidence of what kind of player works with Malkin. Go back through all the years and you will never find a Zucker.

Nah. Malkin is a north south player. You’re just wrong or taking it as a negative.

Malkin doesn’t stretch the ice like Sid and he works well with players that play tight on him like Kunitz, Rust, Kapanen, Neal, etc.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Nah. Malkin is a north south player. You’re just wrong or taking it as a negative.

Malkin doesn’t stretch the ice like Sid and he works well with players that play tight on him like Kunitz, Rust, Kapanen, Neal, etc.

Uh, ok. I don't think you have the same definition of 'north south' that I do. Malkin plays all ways and doesn't really have a defined style that fits into north south or east west categories as they've been defined for decades in the NHL. Nobody who's watched Malkin closely for the last 15 years would define him as a north south NHL player.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. You won't find a player like Zucker among the collection of wingers who have worked the best with him, or even well. Zucker would need a dramatic change of heart at this point to begin to mesh with Malkin, and that almost never happens. He doesn't fit and it's classic of this coach to keep him there.