Post-Game Talk: The Russian Bear Wakes Up - Pens Win!

[Andy99]

From looking back at clips when our centers were more dominant, I'd say they used to be much more willing to penetrate the high danger scoring areas through will power and risk taking contact at speed. They were obviously much faster back then too.

Since our wingers are so respectful of them, this new perimeter, safe mindset has crept into their games too. Kapanen is sort of an exception, but that's only the case when he's leading the charge and not just reading off Geno.

Like Jake in particular is moving so gingerly compared to pre-surgery. Probably just protecting himself. He used to be much more daring. That, combined with our playstyle and the woeful power play is making it very hard for him to have dominant games. He's still getting some points but he's not what he was.

The bottom 6 just lack scoring ability really. Have to keep our expectations low.

We succeed most when we make urgent, yet calculated pushes into the slot or to create space on the walls. For example Marino got us our first goal by keeping the play alive, pushing past his man at speed on a pinch and opening new passing options. The easy way would have been for him to make a boring, safe play along the perimeter or to just give possession away by throwing a muffin at the goalie from the wall, just to get a face-off.



There's another example. This was old school Sid. Strong push to create space, got head up and found Jake in prime real estate. Sid could have just easily passed it earlier in the play to the point, which would have ended in nothing.

Vegas are so good at making these power moves throughout their lineup. That's what has made them so good since they arrived. They challenge the defense and force them out of their structure. They are pushing guys back with speed through the neutral zone already, going right down the gut.

That's why Kapanen is so exciting for me. He's so out of our standard mold. He uses his abilities to get into the danger areas fearlessly. It creates so much more than I'm used to seeing from our Forwards. Obviously today was an off-day for him, with him bobbling the puck so much. But even tonight he got a great slapshot off from the high slot, after pushing to get space.

We need wayyy more of this attitude throughout our lineup. Zucker is capable of playing this way, but his willingness to do it is sporadic at best. He takes nights off like this game.

Basically we're way too predictable and safe. If you want to score consistently, you have to create more chaos.

completely agree...Sid and G don’t challenge the D one on one as much anymore...or should I say, when challenged by a D man or two they aren’t trying to make a move to get around them or deke them or open up space for someone else, like you described with Marino...he set up that goal even though he didn’t get a point...is it a matter of Sid and G can’t or won’t do it to conserve energy etc? Idk but it’s worrying...we need someone on their lines who are offensive threats like this, will draw the D and be able to make passes to them for scoring chances...I think that’s the biggest scoring problem, although having guys willing to go to the net regularly to get dirty goals is another...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Makes you wonder why Crosby didn't want to play with Zucker, who was much more productive on Crosby's line last year than he is on Malkin's this year, but Crosby similarly didn't find chemistry with him.

I don't think it's Crosby calling the shots there. It's probably Sullivan defaulting to the Guentzel-Crosby duo because he loves the duo.

Hard to really blame him for that, either.

 

[Tender Rip]

Well that's just false. GCR and GMR have the same exact GF% (both are at 66%), while Crosby's line is performing even better analytically.

Look at the results for yourself:

GMR
GCR

The Crosby line has been better, although it's not by a huge margin. And that's while playing with a team that has performed way worse around them than what the 2019-2020 Penguins were while Guentzel-Malkin-Rust was together.

You are talking about a short stretch of games where none of GCR are scoring at a PPG pace, where we have won ONE game in regulation and both Sid and Guentzel are minus players.
Further, all three of them have shares in a disgusting PP.

While together last season GMR was a top 3 line in the league. Any advanced stat showing performative similarities are wack.

 

[ChaosAgent]

One of my biggest issues with Malkin is how much he wants the puck on his stick.

I get that he's much more talented than Zucker and Kapanen. But it makes his line so predictable and easy to defend when they feel forced to funnel him in the puck in every single odd-man situation or any dangerous chance. Everyone in the arena knows where it's going (whether there's 200 people in the arena or 20,000).

I think it also like, takes away some of their offensive instincts and makes them into just "funnel the puck to Geno and finish." I think if Geno played off the puck more the line would be more unpredictable and Geno would get some more goals himself.

Edit: I want to add that this is a larger problem with Malkin and Letang and to a lesser extent Crosby. We've talked about the Sharks as a model of how the franchise guys become more complimentary pieces to the next generation, but the entire Penguins culture is that of deference to those 3 guys. When those three lose effectiveness the team will tank.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You are talking about a short stretch of games where none of GCR are scoring at a PPG pace, where we have won ONE game in regulation and both Sid and Guentzel are minus players.
Further, all three of them have shares in a disgusting PP.

While together last season GMR was a top 3 line in the league. Any advanced stat showing performative similarities are wack.

Okay so you're basically throwing out the results because you don't believe them?

The numbers say what the numbers say. I don't really know what else to say in that case. The Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line was great last year, just as the Guentzel-Crosby-Rust line has been this year. The fact that you want to dismiss the numbers is a you problem, that's not be saying anything insane.

If you're really going to cite +/- as why the Guentzel-Crosby-Rust line is nowhere close to the Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line, well don't call my claims "insane" and then come up with that crap

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I have to tell you that I'm not entirely sure what Jason Zucker's game is supposed to be. There seem to be a goodly amount of players on this team that lack identity or any kind of specialization that sticks out. I've been very careful to put most of the blame and accountability on Malkin for that line as is fair but I'm really starting to come around on the idea that his linemate situation is at least 33% incompatible.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't think it's Crosby calling the shots there. It's probably Sullivan defaulting to the Guentzel-Crosby duo because he loves the duo.

Hard to really blame him for that, either.

I don't blame Malkin for not finding chemistry with a winger who Crosby didn't find chemistry with either. One of our centers is in the most comfortable position imaginable, with 2 wingers he's developed chemistry with for years. The other is with two wingers he's totally unfamiliar with.

If the situations were reversed, Crosby would be the one struggling.

Perhaps Zucker is one of those wingers who simply doesn't click well with skilled centers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't blame Malkin for not finding chemistry with a winger who Crosby didn't find chemistry with either. One of our centers is in the most comfortable position imaginable, with 2 wingers he's developed chemistry with for years. The other is with two wingers he's totally unfamiliar with.

If the situations were reversed, Crosby would be the one struggling.

Perhaps Zucker is one of those wingers who simply doesn't click well with skilled centers.

Why did Crosby not find chemistry with Zucker? That's just a lie.

Sullivan deciding he liked the Guentzel-Crosby duo more than the Zucker-Crosby duo doesn't mean that Zucker and Crosby didn't mesh. Saying Crosby and Zucker didn't have chemistry because of Sullivan's lineup decisions is the same as saying Jack Johnson is a top-4 D because Sullivan played him like one.

I have to tell you that I'm not entirely sure what Jason Zucker's game is supposed to be. There seem to be a goodly amount of players on this team that lack identity or any kind of specialization that sticks out. I've been very careful to put most of the blame and accountability on Malkin for that line as is fair but I'm really starting to come around on the idea that his linemate situation is at least 33% incompatible.

He's a speedy winger who plays a physical style and scores a lot of garbage goals.

The problem on that line is Malkin, not him. He hasn't been that good to start this year but the problems are almost entirely Malkin for that line.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Why did Crosby not find chemistry with Zucker? That's just a lie.

So you believe Crosby and Zucker had good chemistry last year?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So you believe Crosby and Zucker had good chemistry last year?

Yes, of course they did. How can you possibly argue otherwise? Zucker was on like a 33 goal, 66 point pace or something like that with Crosby last year. They meshed incredibly well together.

I know exactly what you're doing. You're going to ask the next question of "so why do you want to keep Guentzel and Crosby together if Zucker and Crosby mesh", as if the only 2 responses are "Crosby and Zucker don't mesh" or "Guentzel should be with Malkin". It's a lame cop-out that ignores a ton of nuance.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

He's a speedy winger who plays a physical style and scores a lot of garbage goals.

The problem on that line is Malkin, not him. He hasn't been that good to start this year but the problems are almost entirely Malkin for that line.

I think perhaps you are out on the warpath for Malkin a bit. And that's coming from ME lol

Malkin shows either instant chemistry with new linemates or it never really comes. Tough to hold that against him. Up to the pro scouts and coaches to know him and what works or doesn't. Frankly I'm not feeling all the Malkin hate, tongue in cheek stuff aside. The powerplay is super cringe but he's been holding up his end ES for the most part and even if it is a pathetic streak -- he's the only guy currently streaking on the team. No "stupid penalties" at all this year... respectable in the dot and working with a less-than-ideal line for his needs. I'm not stoked about the hole he's in but I can acknowledge he's working at it and IS digging his way out.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yes, of course they did. How can you possibly argue otherwise? Zucker was on like a 33 goal, 66 point pace or something like that with Crosby last year. They meshed incredibly well together.

Many did last year based on Crosby's performance - not Zucker's - while justifying Guentzel's move to Crosby's line as soon as he returned from injury.

But if you believe otherwise, then it should logically follow that for the good of the team, Guentzel and Rust should move to Malkin's line.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think perhaps you are out on the warpath for Malkin a bit. And that's coming from ME lol

Malkin shows either instant chemistry with new linemates or it never really comes. Tough to hold that against him. Up to the pro scouts and coaches to know him and what works or doesn't. Frankly I'm not feeling all the Malkin hate, tongue in cheek stuff aside. The powerplay is super cringe but he's been holding up his end ES for the most part and even if it is a pathetic streak -- he's the only guy currently streaking on the team. No "stupid penalties" at all this year... respectable in the dot and working with a less-than-ideal line for his needs. I'm not stoked about the hole he's in but I can acknowledge he's working at it and IS digging his way out.

Frankly if you want to change up the top-6, I think the lines should be:

Guentzel-Crosby-Zucker
Kapanen-Malkin-Rust

That's the "best" setup based on who seems to mesh with who. But people are just adamant about wanting Guentzel and Malkin together, to the point where they'll blame any sort of bad play specifically on Sullivan not going with the line combinations that they want.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Many did last year based on Crosby's performance - not Zucker's - while justifying Guentzel's move to Crosby's line as soon as he returned from injury.

But if you believe otherwise, then it should logically follow that for the good of the team, Guentzel and Rust should move to Malkin's line.

Look at the edit I made in that post. I saw through your cop-out from the beginning. It's a lame cop-out that ignores a ton of nuance, it's a bogus argument.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I have to tell you that I'm not entirely sure what Jason Zucker's game is supposed to be. There seem to be a goodly amount of players on this team that lack identity or any kind of specialization that sticks out. I've been very careful to put most of the blame and accountability on Malkin for that line as is fair but I'm really starting to come around on the idea that his linemate situation is at least 33% incompatible.

I've been a fairly tough critic of him early on but my impression of the pros and cons of his game are below.

Pro: Skating, Acceleration, Shifty/Slippery, Instinctive finisher with great hands.
Cons: Playmaking IQ, playing off skilled centers, vision and anticipation, average to below-average on the boards

I agree with @Soggy Biscuit that we should give him a go as a line-driver with Teddy. I don't like his playmaking or decision-making with Sid & Geno despite his high ability to finish.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Look at the edit I made in that post. I saw through your cop-out from the beginning. It's a lame cop-out that ignores a ton of nuance, it's a bogus argument.

The coach's job is to put the team in the best position to win. If one of your scoring lines is floundering because of line configuration, and you have an alternative configuration that has a history of working but choose to stand pat, you're not putting your team in the best position to win.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Frankly if you want to change up the top-6, I think the lines should be:

Guentzel-Crosby-Zucker
Kapanen-Malkin-Rust

That's the "best" setup based on who seems to mesh with who. But people are just adamant about wanting Guentzel and Malkin together, to the point where they'll blame any sort of bad play specifically on Sullivan not going with the line combinations that they want.

Well that's not a good setup and you know it.

Look I'm not here to gripe about things that will never happen. Sid gets what he wants and honestly that's fine by me for the most part.

But let's maybe cut it out a bit with the whole "Malkin can just suck it. Who cares what he wants anyway what a shitbag."

Like the dude is important to the team, man. They don't win shit if he ain't goin' so maybe it's more constructive to think of ways of making that happen rather than just pushing it all aside as "Malkin blows whatever." THAT lacks nuance.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The reality of the top-6 wing situation this year is:

1. Crosby meshes with both Zucker and Guentzel
2. Malkin meshes with Guentzel, but appears to not mesh that well with Zucker.
3. Sullivan deciding to go with Guentzel-Crosby doesn't mean that Zucker-Crosby didn't mesh, just as Sullivan playing Jack Johnson like a top-4 D doesn't make Jack Johnson a top-4 D.
4. It is completely logical to stick with Guentzel-Crosby considering the vast amount of success they have had as a long. The sample size of Guentzel-Crosby dominating is dramatically bigger than the sample size of Guentzel-Malkin dominating
5. None of this excuses Malkin's terrible play on the year, and any complaints of Malkin not meshing with Zucker come largely from Malkin playing like ass this year

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Pffft OK.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

One of my biggest issues with Malkin is how much he wants the puck on his stick.

I get that he's much more talented than Zucker and Kapanen. But it makes his line so predictable and easy to defend when they feel forced to funnel him in the puck in every single odd-man situation or any dangerous chance. Everyone in the arena knows where it's going (whether there's 200 people in the arena or 20,000).

I think it also like, takes away some of their offensive instincts and makes them into just "funnel the puck to Geno and finish." I think if Geno played off the puck more the line would be more unpredictable and Geno would get some more goals himself.

Edit: I want to add that this is a larger problem with Malkin and Letang and to a lesser extent Crosby. We've talked about the Sharks as a model of how the franchise guys become more complimentary pieces to the next generation, but the entire Penguins culture is that of deference to those 3 guys. When those three lose effectiveness the team will tank.

The issue here isn't Malkin, but the other two. Every great winger Malkin has ever had eventually just said f*** it, I can play too and wasn't afraid to keep the puck or shoot it. It made the whole line dangerous. I get what you're saying about Malkin being predictable by wanting the puck, but I don't need to tell you that part of Malkin's greatness is that when he's dialed in it doesn't matter that you know the puck is going to him. He finds a way to make something happen. He plays by instinct and his instincts are still better than almost anyone playing today, when he gets out of his own way.

Zucker reminds me of a slightly harder working Brassard. I have always been interested in putting a guy like Tanev with Malkin, who is more of a Talbot mold. Zucker doesn't have the balls to play with Malkin.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The coach's job is to put the team in the best position to win. If one of your scoring lines is floundering because of line configuration, and you have an alternative configuration that has a history of working but choose to stand pat, you're not putting your team in the best position to win.

And the line is floundering because Evgeni Malkin is playing like shit, not because that line doesn't have Jake Guentzel on it.

It's really not that hard. It's so painfully obvious to see through your argument here.

Well that's not a good setup and you know it.

Look I'm not here to gripe about things that will never happen. Sid gets what he wants and honestly that's fine by me for the most part.

But let's maybe cut it out a bit with the whole "Malkin can just suck it. Who cares what he wants anyway what a shitbag."

Like the dude is important to the team, man. They don't win shit if he ain't goin' so maybe it's more constructive to think of ways of making that happen rather than just pushing it all aside as "Malkin blows whatever." THAT lacks nuance.

Why is it not? Both Kapanen and Zucker have extensive experience playing their off-wings. Guentzel and Zucker both mesh extremely well with Crosby, and Rust definitely meshes really well with Malkin and I've also really liked Kapanen with Malkin.

Trying to strawman my argument as "Malkin can just suck it, he's a shitbag" is ultra dishonest. Malkin is playing like shit and is surrounded by 2 good linemates. He needs to play better. Full stop. Even if Zucker and Malkin don't mesh well, that doesn't justify Malkin's awful play this year.

 

[Gurglesons]

I've been a fairly tough critic of him early on but my impression of the pros and cons of his game are below.

Pro: Skating, Acceleration, Shifty/Slippery, Instinctive finisher with great hands.
Cons: Playmaking IQ, playing off skilled centers, vision and anticipation, average to below-average on the boards

I agree with @Soggy Biscuit that we should give him a go as a line-driver with Teddy. I don't like his playmaking or decision-making with Sid & Geno despite his high ability to finish.

Statistically Zucker is like one of the best forecheckers / board guys in the league.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

And the line is floundering because Evgeni Malkin is playing like shit, not because that line doesn't have Jake Guentzel on it.

It's really not that hard. It's so painfully obvious to see through your argument here.



Why is it not? Both Kapanen and Zucker have extensive experience playing their off-wings. Guentzel and Zucker both mesh extremely well with Crosby, and Rust definitely meshes really well with Malkin and I've also really liked Kapanen with Malkin.

Trying to strawman my argument as "Malkin can just suck it, he's a shitbag" is ultra dishonest. Malkin is playing like shit and is surrounded by 2 good linemates. He needs to play better. Full stop. Even if Zucker and Malkin don't mesh well, that doesn't justify Malkin's awful play this year.

I don't think you have a good handle on what type of linemate meshes with Malkin, or a good handle on what's going on with his line this season.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean it's just weird to me that we've all been watching Malkin for like close to 15 years and everything he has done here but we're 100% going to give Jason Zucker the benefit of the doubt over him when it comes to line incompatibility. Because like... clearly Malkin is either just done for all of the sudden or what... doesn't care? Frustrating take at this stage of the game. Perhaps much like many guys before him... Jason Zucker is a guy that looks great on paper but won't actually work in practice.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Statistically Zucker is like one of the best forecheckers / board guys in the league.

Statistically ZAR is one of the top defensive forwards in the league.