Post-Game Talk: The Russian Bear Wakes Up - Pens Win!

[Pittsburgh1776]

I mean it's just weird to me that we've all been watching Malkin for like close to 15 years and everything he has done here but we're 100% going to give Jason Zucker the benefit of the doubt over him when it comes to line incompatibility. Because like... clearly Malkin is either just done for all of the sudden or what... doesn't care? Frustrating take at this stage of the game. Perhaps much like many guys before him... Jason Zucker is a guy that looks great on paper but won't actually work in practice.

This, more or less.

 

[Gurglesons]

Statistically ZAR is one of the top defensive forwards in the league.

What does this mean? ZAR is a solid player in his role as is Zucker.

The fact that the coach is stubborn and won’t move Zucker when he is clearly not working with Malkin doesn’t make him an ineffective winger that has low IQ and no identity.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean it's just weird to me that we've all been watching Malkin for like close to 15 years and everything he has done here but we're 100% going to give Jason Zucker the benefit of the doubt over him when it comes to line incompatibility. Because like... clearly Malkin is either just done for all of the sudden or what... doesn't care? Frustrating take at this stage of the game. Perhaps much like many guys before him... Jason Zucker is a guy that looks great on paper but won't actually work in practice.

I just really don't get how people can try to give Malkin a pass when he's failing to make 20 foot passes, and somehow it's his linemates fault instead of his fault.

Zucker and Malkin don't appear to mesh that well, but the failures of that 2nd line are Malkin playing like shit. I don't know why you need to strawman it as Malkin must obviously be done.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

What does this mean? ZAR is a solid player in his role as is Zucker.

I guess we just see things differently. I see ZAR's statistical effectiveness as an accident of circumstance. I see an average-to below average player who often bumbles around the ice in a vanilla way. Likewise with Zucker, who has above average stats but looks off over time in every role he's been used on this team. I also see a guy who plays almost no role in the good things that happen with L2, yet the stats show a different story. The eye test is telling me something different.

 

[Tender Rip]

Okay so you're basically throwing out the results because you don't believe them?

The numbers say what the numbers say. I don't really know what else to say in that case. The Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line was great last year, just as the Guentzel-Crosby-Rust line has been this year. The fact that you want to dismiss the numbers is a you problem, that's not be saying anything insane.

If you're really going to cite +/- as why the Guentzel-Crosby-Rust line is nowhere close to the Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line, well don't call my claims "insane" and then come up with that crap

Sid has 2 goals since the line was put together. Both of them in OT. Great to get game winners when you score, but a reflection of how that line is doing it is not.
We have three wins against the Rags during that period, one of them our one and only ES win.

We have played one legitimately good team for that duration, Boston, where Sid was pointless and -4. And as imperfect as plus/minus is, over time it does matter as an indicator as to whether your efforts are contributing to winning when you are on the ice. In periods where Sid or Malkin's lines actually do play great hockey both ways, plus/minus always reflects this. Ditto when they don't.

The GCR line is obviously a good line and we should always expect it to be. My problem is with anyone talking about anything on the Pens so far this season meriting comparison to what GMR did last season. It is is utterly ludicrous.

Malkin had 40 points in 27 games and was +11 in a period where all the opponents focus was on that line. Guentzel and Rust both with gaudy stats as well, and we were having our best period of the season in terms of wins. Its some of the best and most dynamic hockey we have seen from a Penguins line over the entirety of the Sid/Geno era, and you want to compare it to something happening in THIS season so far?

 

[ChaosAgent]

The issue here isn't Malkin, but the other two. Every great winger Malkin has ever had eventually just said f*** it, I can play too and wasn't afraid to keep the puck or shoot it. It made the whole line dangerous. I get what you're saying about Malkin being predictable by wanting the puck, but I don't need to tell you that part of Malkin's greatness is that when he's dialed in it doesn't matter that you know the puck is going to him. He finds a way to make something happen. He plays by instinct and his instincts are still better than almost anyone playing today, when he gets out of his own way.

Zucker reminds me of a slightly harder working Brassard. I have always been interested in putting a guy like Tanev with Malkin, who is more of a Talbot mold. Zucker doesn't have the balls to play with Malkin.

You want a guy who has never played on a successful Pens team - the Pens have sucked the entirety of the time Zucker has been here through almost no fault of his own - to take the bull by the horns and be selfish when he's on a line with Malkin.

Easier said than done.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's also really obvious to me that a lot of the defense of Malkin stems from the fact that this board has complained about not reuniting the Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line since even before the play-ins last year. To me, any sort of defense of Malkin's play this year falls into the "Sullivan isn't doing what I want, so I'm blaming that for everything" category. There is certainly precedent for this, you still have people who blame the failures of the Malkin-Kessel duo in 2019 as being caused entirely by Jack Johnson.

This board has a conclusion for what it wants and argues backwards to support it. When Malkin can't make a 20 foot pass, it's because he doesn't have Guentzel on his line. When Malkin and Kessel were complete duds as a duo in 2018-2019, it was because they played in front of Jack Johnson.

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess we just see things differently. I see ZAR's statistical effectiveness as an accident of circumstance. I see an average-to below average player who often bumbles around the ice in a vanilla way. Likewise with Zucker, who has above average stats but looks off over time in every role he's been used on this team. I also see a guy who plays almost no role in the good things that happen with L2, yet the stats show a different story. The eye test is telling me something different.

How did Zucker look off with Crosby last year?

Zucker’s game is built on speed and behind the net play. Malkin’s isn’t. That’s where the issues are coming. Zucker isn’t really a north south guy like Malkin.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

completely agree...Sid and G don’t challenge the D one on one as much anymore...or should I say, when challenged by a D man or two they aren’t trying to make a move to get around them or deke them or open up space for someone else, like you described with Marino...he set up that goal even though he didn’t get a point...is it a matter of Sid and G can’t or won’t do it to conserve energy etc? Idk but it’s worrying...we need someone on their lines who are offensive threats like this, will draw the D and be able to make passes to them for scoring chances...I think that’s the biggest scoring problem, although having guys willing to go to the net regularly to get dirty goals is another...

I think in Sid's case it's largely a style he adopted after the concussions to protect himself. He's very wary of slowing down and bracing before contact. Head on a swivel. Something I noticed right away when he returned. It's hurt his and his linemates' production.
He puts that aside in the playoffs though and plays more risky.

In Malkin's case I would say it's often a question of motivation and the fact that he's less eager to score himself than he did in his youth. He enjoys setting up linemates more. So he takes the easy way out. That's to the Pens detriment though. Geno's way too good of a shooter to only average like 2 shots per game. His best years are when he was the trigger man.

I was watching goal compilations of his during his peak offensive years. A common theme I noticed is he used to score from range at a remarkable rate, at 5 on 5 . They'd hit him as the trailer and he'd just blow the goalie away.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sid has 2 goals since the line was put together. Both of them in OT. Great to get game winners when you score, but a reflection of how that line is doing it is not.
We have three wins against the Rags during that period, one of them our one and only ES win.

We have played one legitimately good team for that duration, Boston, where Sid was pointless and -4. And as imperfect as plus/minus is, over time it does matter as an indicator as to whether your efforts are contributing to winning when you are on the ice. In periods where Sid or Malkin's lines actually do play great hockey both ways, plus/minus always reflects this. Ditto when they don't.

The GCR line is obviously a good line and we should always expect it to be. My problem is with anyone talking about anything on the Pens so far this season meriting comparison to what GMR did last season. It is is utterly ludicrous.

Malkin had 40 points in 27 games and was +11 in a period where all the opponents focus was on that line. Guentzel and Rust both with gaudy stats as well, and we were having our best period of the season in terms of wins. Its some of the best and most dynamic hockey we have seen from a Penguins line over the entirety of the Sid/Geno era, and you want to compare it to something happening in THIS season so far?

There are a bunch of things I can point out here. Just a few:

1. +/- is a terrible stat, especially in small sample sizes
2. You're looking at total production when the Penguins powerplay this year has been dreadful. You're saying the line hasn't been as good because they have no PPG players on the line, but they have no PPG players on the line solely because of a bad powerplay. Take out Malkin's powerplay production last year during that stretch and how do his numbers look?
3. Guentzel-Crosby-Rust is playing on a substantially worse team this year than what Guentzel-Malkin-Rust played for last year, and they're beating their results analytically
4. The Penguins playing like shit this year does not by default make a line from last year better than a line from this year.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It's also really obvious to me that a lot of the defense of Malkin stems from the fact that this board has complained about not reuniting the Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line since even before the play-ins last year. To me, any sort of defense of Malkin's play this year falls into the "Sullivan isn't doing what I want, so I'm blaming that for everything" category. There is certainly precedent for this, you still have people who blame the failures of the Malkin-Kessel duo in 2019 as being caused entirely by Jack Johnson.

This board has a conclusion for what it wants and argues backwards to support it. When Malkin can't make a 20 foot pass, it's because he doesn't have Guentzel on his line. When Malkin and Kessel were complete duds as a duo in 2018-2019, it was because they played in front of Jack Johnson.

Yeah, of the list of things to complain about with Sully the Guentzel-Malkin thing just doesn't make it for me.

Would I try it? Sure I guess. But is it obvious? Nah.

 

[LOGiK]

I had a crazy dream that Barzal was a penguin...


'make a wish..... baby.... and love'll make it come true'

 

[ChaosAgent]

I had a crazy dream that Barzal was a penguin...


'make a wish..... baby.... and love'll make it come true'

Rust, POJ, Poulin, 1st for Barzal and I wouldn't regret it one iota.

What a player.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

You want a guy who has never played on a successful Pens team - the Pens have sucked the entirety of the time Zucker has been here through almost no fault of his own - to take the bull by the horns and be selfish when he's on a line with Malkin.

Easier said than done.

Of course it is, but it's a prerequisite to have any sustained success with Malkin. If Talbot and Fedotenko can do it, you'd expect some of our higher pedigree guys to do it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, of the list of things to complain about with Sully the Guentzel-Malkin thing just doesn't make it for me.

Would I try it? Sure I guess. But is it obvious? Nah.

I legitimately think the wing duos should be Guentzel-Zucker and Kapanen-Rust. I'm not joking at all when I say that, that is the setup I think maximizes fit on their lines. IMO Rust meshes better with Malkin than he does with Crosby and Kapanen and Malkin have looked excellent together, while Guentzel and Zucker both mesh better with Crosby than they do with Malkin. Rust, Kapanen and Zucker all have experience playing their off-wings as well.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I legitimately think the wing duos should be Guentzel-Zucker and Kapanen-Rust. I'm not joking at all when I say that, that is the setup I think maximizes fit on their lines. IMO Rust meshes better with Malkin than he does with Crosby and Kapanen and Malkin have looked excellent together, while Guentzel and Zucker both mesh better with Crosby than they do with Malkin. Rust, Kapanen and Zucker all have experience playing their off-wings as well.

I think having guys on their off wings makes us even more vulnerable on the D-zone. For that, I'd pass.

Offensively you're right though.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

How did Zucker look off with Crosby last year?

Zucker’s game is built on speed and behind the net play. Malkin’s isn’t. That’s where the issues are coming. Zucker isn’t really a north south guy like Malkin.

I wouldn't describe Malkin as a north-south guy at all, his center drives from behind his own net notwithstanding. His mindset is more all over the place, and he's often benefitted from guys like Talbot or Malone or Rust who were more north-south than he is. I think you've identified one of the issues but there are a lot more. They don't connect anywhere on the ice. Zucker constantly defers and he doesn't understand how Malkin plays. They just don't fit.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

It's also really obvious to me that a lot of the defense of Malkin stems from the fact that this board has complained about not reuniting the Guentzel-Malkin-Rust line since even before the play-ins last year. To me, any sort of defense of Malkin's play this year falls into the "Sullivan isn't doing what I want, so I'm blaming that for everything" category. There is certainly precedent for this, you still have people who blame the failures of the Malkin-Kessel duo in 2019 as being caused entirely by Jack Johnson.

This board has a conclusion for what it wants and argues backwards to support it. When Malkin can't make a 20 foot pass, it's because he doesn't have Guentzel on his line. When Malkin and Kessel were complete duds as a duo in 2018-2019, it was because they played in front of Jack Johnson.

I don't think anyone's arguing that.

 

[LOGiK]

Rust, POJ, Poulin, 1st for Barzal and I wouldn't regret it one iota.

What a player.

I think the penguins have what it would take to get barzal..... between jake (which we'd absolutely need for jake/sid/barz) to rust (maybe even e-rod =P) to pojo and marino.... pojo and marino. Heh... sounds like a bad 80's sitcom...

Is it worth dismantling the entire team for one player? For barzal............ hahah.... part of me says yes because of the rebuild... and I just straight up would die if I got to watch him play every night in a pens sweater.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And the line is floundering because Evgeni Malkin is playing like shit, not because that line doesn't have Jake Guentzel on it.

It's really not that hard. It's so painfully obvious to see through your argument here.

Whatever you attribute his play to, the problem is that it's happening and since the team is going nowhere with the 2nd line struggling, something needs to be done.

Your solution is to play a bunch of players on their off-wings?

K.

It seems odd to contort the line-up in that way when you've already established that you believe Zucker and Crosby worked well together without Guentzel, but at least it's trying something different.

 

[Tender Rip]

There are a bunch of things I can point out here. Just a few:

1. +/- is a terrible stat, especially in small sample sizes
2. You're looking at total production when the Penguins powerplay this year has been dreadful. You're saying the line hasn't been as good because they have no PPG players on the line, but they have no PPG players on the line solely because of a bad powerplay. Take out Malkin's powerplay production last year during that stretch and how do his numbers look?
3. Guentzel-Crosby-Rust is playing on a substantially worse team this year than what Guentzel-Malkin-Rust played for last year, and they're beating their results analytically
4. The Penguins playing like shit this year does not by default make a line from last year better than a line from this year.

All stats are terrible in isolation. Expected goals for not least.
Malkin had just 9 PP points during the period in question. He led or was at the very top of the league in even strength points per game at the end that period.
Why is this years team worse than last years team with Crosby absent and with Murray being horrible in the first half of the season? Outside of the PP I don't think that is the case outside a couple of games where we were too shorthanded on D (but still made it respectable).
No, but when that first line does not produce ES and is not outscoring mostly bland opposition, then it is enormously weird to compare it to one of the best and most productive lines we've had in 15 years.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

The reason people want Guentzel to be tried on L2 is that the line was not just good or ok. It was some of the most lights out hockey we've seen from any line in the past 5 years. There was no objective reason to not try it again when we were losing against Montreal. It was a political decision to keep Crosby happy. I'd like to try Guentzel on L2 this year because Zucker doesn't fit with L2, but I'd settle for Rust or Tanev with Malkin and Kapanen. It's either about playing the best lineup or making stars happy, at some point those two things don't align and decisions have to be made.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Whatever you attribute his play to, the problem is that it's happening and since the team is going nowhere with the 2nd line struggling, something needs to be done.

Your solution is to play a bunch of players on their off-wings?

K.

It seems odd to contort the line-up in that way when you've already established that you believe Zucker and Crosby worked well together without Guentzel, but at least it's trying something different.

Weren't you adamant about keeping Kessel and playing Rust on LW?

Again, it's so obvious to see through your argument. You want to justify Guentzel and Malkin together, so you're just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks to rationalize it.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think the penguins have what it would take to get barzal..... between jake (which we'd absolutely need for jake/sid/barz) to rust (maybe even e-rod =P) to pojo and marino.... pojo and marino. Heh... sounds like a bad 80's sitcom...

Is it worth dismantling the entire team for one player? For barzal............ hahah.... part of me says yes because of the rebuild... and I just straight up would die if I got to watch him play every night in a pens sweater.

The thought of making a "Godfather" type offer for Barzal to be the next franchise player here kept crossing my mind yesterday.

I'd take pretty much nothing off the table aside from Sid & Geno.

1) Rust or Zucker take your pick. Even Jake though this nullifies the below line.
2) Marino or POJ take your pick
3) Poulin
4) Picks, any of them

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Cant wait for Fat Smelly Porn Man to once again run his lard hole about how Jake is small, over the hill, soft, not a Hextall/Burke player and how much of a short peak he had and how we should trade him today on the Fat Smelly Porn Man Show at Can't put down the fork O'clock.