The ROR Beatification Station and Exclusion Zone (Discussion of ROR trade goes here!)

[Djp]

@slip

Armstrong’s take on how things played out from their pov was in an article by the Blues beat reporter.

He (Armstrong) thought the trade was dead days before it took place. So he moved on top other moves because he had a roster to fill out (like signing Bozak). He was surprised to get a call from Botts the day of the trade. I think it was 6 hours before the bonus was due.

Armstrong had already added players, so whatever they had worked out before wouldn’t work without us taking on cap hits. I just find it incredibly hard to believe Botts would be that desperate to unload ROR before the bonus unless he was told to do so. Calling Armstrong back like that roughly 6 hrs before the bonus was due strikes me as very desperate.

The unanswered question we still havent found out....

what was going on in the locker room prior to the ROR trade Was something going on dividing the team, did ROR ask to be traded.

what was the deal to start with before this final deal was...

 

[Zip15]

The unanswered question we still havent found out....

what was going on in the locker room prior to the ROR trade Was something going on dividing the team, did ROR ask to be traded.

what was the deal to start with before this final deal was...

We know there wasn't a divide between Sam, Jack, and ROR. Who the f*** cares about what any of the other replacement-level trash thought of ROR?

 

[Icicle]

STL held their top 8 trade assets off the table in a deal for a #1C. It was absurd. And Botts never should have pursued negotiations in that case.

It's also absurd, it must be said, that we couldn't get another team to beat that price. Montreal was approached for 3OA. Montreal was hungry for a 1C. Montreal is still hungry for a 1C. If Montreal could redo that negotiation now, seeing that as soon as ROR wasn't on a team covering for the entire worst defensive unit in the league and a dipso goalie, he became a Selke/Conn Smythe winner, I have little doubt Montreal would make that deal.

And we'd be sitting here with Brady Tkachuk. And I tell you, I don't think ROR would lead us to the playoffs if we could get him for free right now, so I'd still rather have a Brady Tkachuk who's 9 years younger at this point.

Montreal publicly scoffed at Botterill's ask for 3OA for ROR. Botterill literally pushed for this and couldn't get MTL to make the trade.

 

[sabremike]

"Delaying your window" as a plan... is idiotic.

Not if you are an incompetent GM trying to con his gullible owner to keep you employed forever without actually producing any results.

 

[Fjordy]

It’s just that Botterill became crazy and he was fixated on the choice in the first round. Although package Danault + Poehling and 2nd was a solid return.

 

[brian_griffin]

What window?

The window we clearly didn't have and have not since gained.

We're in chains and leg irons miles deep in a pitch black windowless silo...

Hockey Heaven.

 

[Chainshot]

I mean, it depends. We could've extended Miller/Vanek/Pominville and kept chasing the Shane Doans and Brad Richards of the world. Not that we've exactly gotten rewarded, but there's good times to get younger.

Botterill wasn't here when those moves were made. The decision that the old "Rochester core" needed to be turned over began two regimes before he took over. I'm not sure what your trying to relate here, but the excuses given voice repeatedly by people who think Botterill is doing a good job are about how THIS summer is the one where he's finally going to sort it all out. That has nothing to do with any of your response.

 

[Buffaloed]

Those who forget history are doomed to relive it. Those who don't, relive it every day.

 

[joshjull]

This particular vignette is my favorite. When it was happening, every pro trade Reinhart argument was he's slow, he's not worth the money, we need more depth, he's a locker room cancer. His bonus almost never came up, and if it did it was dismissed as not a reason for a lesser return.

Trade happens, the return is a win/win.... And definitely Pegula didn't force Botts. Botts was fixing the needed depth.

Now it was all Pegula telling his yes man to do as told.

Anf then any good move is on botts any bad move is pegula.

I'm dizzy.

I‘ve thought a lot about this trade in the last few days. The more I do the more I see it as an indictment of Botts’ dithering and somewhat of a preview of this past offseason. The bonus payment was a hinderance of sorts but its not a free pass on this trade. Scrambling to make a trade the day it was due was entirely on Botts.

Here’s why I think that.

We were reportedly shopping ROR leading up to the trade deadline. Which means Botts and the organization had decided to move from ROR about 6 months before he was traded. Plenty of time to move him well before the bonus payment. Botts had to have a pretty good idea of the interest level and a rough idea of the market well before the bonus was due. In the offseason he should have gotten an even better feel for who was interested pre-bonus.

When we get to the week leading up to the bonus. There should have been little mystery on what his options were. Its also the same time pending UFAs could talk with teams as well. If Botts had been holding out for a specific prospect (Thomas, Dunn, etc) and the Blues wouldn’t budge then. They weren’t going to budge a few days later. He had no leverage at that point. So why not rip off the bandaid and complete a Tage, 1st rounder and 2nd rounder trade that frees up 7.5mil in cap space. Its still not a great return but at least allows some flexibility to try to mitigate the loss of ROR with better players than Berglund/Sobotka using that space. Cap space that would have obviously been FAR more valuable than those two players.

For whatever reason Botts doesn’t work out a trade and take what he could get then. He keeps waiting thinking if he does it will force Armstrong to cough up the prospect he wants. Why on earth did he think he had any leverage in this situation? Armstrong effectively called his bluff with the Bozak and Perron signings. Leading to Botts calling him not long after those deals were announced that Sunday to work out a deal. Now he has to take on two cap hits in Sobotka/Berglund to make the deal happen.


Fast forward to this past offseason, where we are told, by Botts, he is looking to make moves to improve the team, especially the forwards. That he is willing to be aggressive. Then months go by and nothing happens. Season starts and now he’s handicapped himself again because the cap is a much bigger problem for trades once rosters are set.

Dithering is the word of the day.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I miss ROR

 

[Jame]

Let’s not forget in Botts rush to get a last minute deal done he didn’t even check if the guy with the NTC wanted to come to Buffalo.

 

[Gabrielor]

Let’s not forget in Botts rush to get a last minute deal done he didn’t even check if the guy with the NTC wanted to come to Buffalo.

It's a nightmare layer cake. Typed out this way, you wonder why it was possible.

Selke, Smythe winning top line center

for

decent draft pool team's 5th-6th best prospect

a guy who quit the NHL not even 1/2 of 1 season in with us

our 18-19 worst advanced statistic player, and one of the worst in the entire NHL

a 1st used on a Mark Pysyk-eske d prospect

a 2nd used to snag a 3rd pair defensive with good advanced stats on a great team

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

I‘ve thought a lot about this trade in the last few days. The more I do the more I see it as an indictment of Botts’ dithering and somewhat of a preview of this past offseason. The bonus payment was a hinderance of sorts but its not a free pass on this trade. Scrambling to make a trade the day it was due was entirely on Botts.

Here’s why I think that.

We were reportedly shopping ROR leading up to the trade deadline. Which means Botts and the organization had decided to move from ROR about 6 months before he was traded. Plenty of time to move him well before the bonus payment. Botts had to have a pretty good idea of the interest level and a rough idea of the market well before the bonus was due. In the offseason he should have gotten an even better feel for who was interested pre-bonus.

When we get to the week leading up to the bonus. There should have been little mystery on what his options were. Its also the same time pending UFAs could talk with teams as well. If Botts had been holding out for a specific prospect (Thomas, Dunn, etc) and the Blues wouldn’t budge then. They weren’t going to budge a few days later. He had no leverage at that point. So why not rip off the bandaid and complete a Tage, 1st rounder and 2nd rounder trade that frees up 7.5mil in cap space. Its still not a great return but at least allows some flexibility to try to mitigate the loss of ROR with better players than Berglund/Sobotka using that space. Cap space that would have obviously been FAR more valuable than those two players.

For whatever reason Botts doesn’t work out a trade and take what he could get then. He keeps waiting thinking if he does it will force Armstrong to cough up the prospect he wants. Why on earth did he think he had any leverage in this situation? Armstrong effectively called his bluff with the Bozak and Perron signings. Leading to Botts calling him not long after those deals were announced that Sunday to work out a deal. Now he has to take on two cap hits in Sobotka/Berglund to make the deal happen.


Fast forward to this past offseason, where we are told, by Botts, he is looking to make moves to improve the team, especially the forwards. That he is willing to be aggressive. Then months go by and nothing happens. Season starts and now he’s handicapped himself again because the cap is a much bigger problem for trades once rosters are set.

Dithering is the word of the day.

I think Botterill genuinely thought Sobotka and Berglund could be temporarily fillers at center and wanted 1st + prospect + NHL player in the deal. He was unaware those two guys had become terrible in the past few years. He also incorrectly believed Tage was NHL ready.

 

[SabresFan26]

I think Botterill genuinely thought Sobotka and Berglund could be temporarily fillers at center and wanted 1st + prospect + NHL player in the deal. He was unaware those two guys had become terrible in the past few years. He also incorrectly believed Tage was NHL ready.

Agree with this. I think Botts decided to move on from ROR and didn’t see him in this teams future. Botts was probably asking for Thomas or someone else and then caved for Tage.

Berglund and Sobotka did have decent 5v5 stats and face off winning percentage to replace ROR but clearly it didn’t pan out. He saw it as a deal to give us more depth now and help for the future once we contend more.

 

[Chainshot]

Agree with this. I think Botts decided to move on from ROR and didn’t see him in this teams future. Botts was probably asking for Thomas or someone else and then caved for Tage.

Berglund and Sobotka did have decent 5v5 stats and face off winning percentage to replace ROR but clearly it didn’t pan out. He saw it as a deal to give us more depth now and help for the future once we contend more.

Berglund and Sobotka (and Thompson too) had some of the worst metrics of anyone not just is St Louis but in the league.

 

[SabresFan26]

Berglund and Sobotka (and Thompson too) had some of the worst metrics of anyone not just is St Louis but in the league.

Once again I didn’t say that. I said they had good 5v5 points to replace RORs which is I assume Botterills mentality to replacing that scoring and adding “depth”. Not talking corsi or possession metrics which were obviously not good.

 

[Aladyyn]

Once again I didn’t say that. I said they had good 5v5 points to replace RORs which is I assume Botterills mentality to replacing that scoring and adding “depth”. Not talking corsi or possession metrics which were obviously not good.

Then Botterill is horribly unqualified for his job...

 

[SabresFan26]

Then Botterill is horribly unqualified for his job...

Yes he was wrong and made a bad deal

 

[sabrebuild]

I just consider that after year 1, Botts made the decisions he did. And you have to think he might really not have a real understanding of the league, despite his time in Pittsburgh.

The Penguins in just a ten year period when Botts was around, fired bad coachs, midseason, and saw great responses from their talent.

And after seeing Housley for a year, and having to know the lack of forward help was on his moves, like multiple ahl players and with Dahlin in the fold, he chose to keep his coach and that he valued O'Reilly low enough as to accept that deal.

It's.... Sort of incredible. Especially with so much term left. They clearly didn't expect to be contenders, so how could it possibly hurt to hold onto him until xmas or later, to maximize value. There is zero way he could hurt the room, as the incredibly hard working veteran player, by being around for a few months.

Botts was a firing Housley, no O'Reilly trade and a more aggressive pursuit of young talent, from building a good team.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

Montreal publicly scoffed at Botterill's ask for 3OA for ROR. Botterill literally pushed for this and couldn't get MTL to make the trade.

So he went from wanting the 3rd overall pick to taking a big pile of garbage.

 

[Correct]

The unanswered question we still havent found out....

what was going on in the locker room prior to the ROR trade Was something going on dividing the team, did ROR ask to be traded.

what was the deal to start with before this final deal was...

I think it's simpler than fans make it.

ROR spoke publically about something that made the team look really bad. We got re-branded as Hockey Heaven, and here's a star player talking about losing his love for the game. They wanted to get rid of the "problem" with the easy solution rather than the hard one (a deep cultural cleanse).

Furthermore, he left a bad taste in the Pegula's mouthes by crashing into Tim Horton's immediately after signing a huge contract. The $10M bonus dodge was out of principle. Many rich people will go to the moon and back over a $5 bill if they're mad enough. That's from personal experience.

Pegula gave the order. No doubt about it. A rookie GM, who was incompetent then and is incompetent now, made a desperate trade with the clock ticking. Here we are a few years later. Everybody got what they deserved, except the fans.

Edit:
To add to this, why else are the Pegulas totally unmoved by the enormity of the bad trade and are still happy with Botterill? It's because they gave the order.

That's why they didn't care about taking on all those bad contracts (which they would if this was all about money). It's because it was out of principle.

 

[sabremike]

I think it's simpler than fans make it.

ROR spoke publically about something that made the team look really bad. We got re-branded as Hockey Heaven, and here's a star player talking about losing his love for the game. They wanted to get rid of the "problem" with the easy solution rather than the hard one (a deep cultural cleanse).

Furthermore, he left a bad taste in the Pegula's mouthes by crashing into Tim Horton's immediately after signing a huge contract. The $10M bonus dodge was out of principle. Many rich people will go to the moon and back over a $5 bill if they're mad enough. That's from personal experience.

Pegula gave the order. No doubt about it. A rookie GM, who was incompetent then and is incompetent now, made a desperate trade with the clock ticking. Here we are a few years later. Everybody got what they deserved, except the fans.

Edit:
To add to this, why else are the Pegulas totally unmoved by the enormity of the bad trade and are still happy with Botterill? It's because they gave the order.

That's why they didn't care about taking on all those bad contracts (which they would if this was all about money). It's because it was out of principle.

Simpler explanation: The Pegulas are the most incompetent and unsuccessful owners in modern NHL history. 9 seasons of full control, ZERO playoff appearances and the team never even came close in any of them.

 

[joshjull]

I think Botterill genuinely thought Sobotka and Berglund could be temporarily fillers at center and wanted 1st + prospect + NHL player in the deal. He was unaware those two guys had become terrible in the past few years. He also incorrectly believed Tage was NHL ready.

I seriously doubt those two players were initially discussed as a part of a deal, Berglund in particular, due to the time line of events.


**Berglund had a full NTC clause for the 17-18 season that didn’t expire until the end of June. His next contract year had a modified NTC. He had to submit a 20 team list that would kick in July 1st, 2018. Thats the list he forgot to submit.**

Both Armstrong and Botts would have known at the end of June Berglund was unavailable unless he was willing to waive. There is also no way either GM could know Berglund would forget to submit his modified 20 team list by the deadline several days later.

If we were truly trying to acquire Berglund as part of the deal at the end of June that fell apart. Then we would have required Berglund’s camp to be notified to see if they would waive. His camp clearly had no idea what was playing out until the trade happened.

Which leads me to believe Armstrong took advantage of the opportunity presented by Berglund’s screw up and Botts desperation to unload his (Berglund’s) contract.


** @dotcommunism Am I correct in my understanding (laid out above) of the NTC lasting until the end of June?

 

[Correct]

Simpler explanation: The Pegulas are the most incompetent and unsuccessful owners in modern NHL history. 9 seasons of full control, ZERO playoff appearances and the team never even came close in any of them.

They're dolts who found a dolt just like them in Botterill. They all speak the same dolt-language.

 

[Orange Fanta]

I'm just thinking about the lost chance at a top six of:
Marjo-eich-olofsson
Skinner-ror-reino
Coached by krueger