The ROR Beatification Station and Exclusion Zone (Discussion of ROR trade goes here!)

[OkimLom]

I'm just thinking about the lost chance at a top six of:
Marjo-eich-olofsson
Skinner-ror-reino
Coached by krueger

shoot....

Skinner-Eichel-Oloffsson
[insert name]-ROR-Reinhart

 

[Orange Fanta]

shoot....

Skinner-Eichel-Oloffsson
[insert name]-ROR-Reinhart

Either way its a legit top six just a shame we needed winger help and a better d group, then we get dahlin before the ror trade and basically got more cap back with sobotka and berglund AND THEN we trade for skinner afterwards. Botts could've made his other moves without the o'reilly trade substituting in different assets. Asset management has been awful before botts though.

 

[EichHart]

shoot....

Skinner-Eichel-Oloffsson
[insert name]-ROR-Reinhart

This hurts

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Either way its a legit top six just a shame we needed winger help and a better d group, then we get dahlin before the ror trade and basically got more cap back with sobotka and berglund AND THEN we trade for skinner afterwards. Botts could've made his other moves without the o'reilly trade substituting in different assets. Asset management has been awful before botts though.

For the 1,000th time - having all these guys signed long term would never have been feasible. Unless the plan was to ice an AHL level D behind them....

Yes - it would have been possible to not make the ROR trade while still making the Skinner trade. In the short term.

But that's not the point. How do you extend Skinner, extend Reinhart, extend Dahlin, extend Montour etc while you have that extra 7.5m hit also on the books? You can't.

I would take ROR 10/10 times over Skinner... But let's not pretend that Skinner would have been a Sabre if ROR trade doesn't happen.

 

[Jim Bob]

For the 1,000th time - having all these guys signed long term would never have been feasible. Unless the plan was to ice an AHL level D behind them....

Yes - it would have been possible to not make the ROR trade while still making the Skinner trade. In the short term.

But that's not the point. How do you extend Skinner, extend Reinhart, extend Dahlin, extend Montour etc while you have that extra 7.5m hit also on the books? You can't.

I would take ROR 10/10 times over Skinner... But let's not pretend that Skinner would have been a Sabre if ROR trade doesn't happen.

The ROR trade added cap over the short term and didn't clear cap space.

The Skinner trade happened prior to Berglund walking away.

They could have easily have fit ROR and Skinner on this roster long term. Montour is a non-core piece and if they needed to save money on D, then the Miller trade likely doesn't happen.

If cap space becomes really tight, then the Sabres would need to pay the piper and give up something good to move Okposo.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

The ROR trade added cap over the short term and didn't clear cap space.

The Skinner trade happened prior to Berglund walking away.

They could have easily have fit ROR and Skinner on this roster long term. Montour is a non-core piece and if they needed to save money on D, then the Miller trade likely doesn't happen.

If cap space becomes really tight, then the Sabres would need to pay the piper and give up something good to move Okposo.

Getting Okposo's salary off the books is going to be virtually impossible. Look at what it cost Toronto to unload just one year of Marleau... It's not realistic to put this into any future roster scenario imo.

Both Berglund/Sobotka were signed for fewer years than ROR.

As I said - it would have been technically possible if you are OK with a bunch of entry level or league minimum contracts on D & in the bottom six. I'm not OK with doing that though since it likely negates any good those top six forwards could do.

Botts is fully aware of long term cap implications. There's no way he'd have made the Skinner trade if ROR didn't happen.

 

[OkimLom]

Getting Okposo's salary off the books is going to be virtually impossible. Look at what it cost Toronto to unload just one year of Marleau... It's not realistic to put this into any future roster scenario imo.

Both Berglund/Sobotka were signed for fewer years than ROR.

As I said - it would have been technically possible if you are OK with a bunch of entry level or league minimum contracts on D & in the bottom six. I'm not OK with doing that though since it likely negates any good those top six forwards could do.

Botts is fully aware of long term cap implications. There's no way he'd have made the Skinner trade if ROR didn't happen.

Or he can trade ROR away when he's not under pressure to do so, when Casey, Reinhart are further in their development.

 

[Jim Bob]

Getting Okposo's salary off the books is going to be virtually impossible. Look at what it cost Toronto to unload just one year of Marleau... It's not realistic to put this into any future roster scenario imo.

Both Berglund/Sobotka were signed for fewer years than ROR.

As I said - it would have been technically possible if you are OK with a bunch of entry level or league minimum contracts on D & in the bottom six. I'm not OK with doing that though since it likely negates any good those top six forwards could do.

Botts is fully aware of long term cap implications. There's no way he'd have made the Skinner trade if ROR didn't happen.

Having ROR and Skinner on the team together wouldn't have been an issue last season or this season.

With all the players hitting UFA after this season, you have flexibility.

And if they have ROR, perhaps they don't sign MoJo and that adds some flexibility this year and next.

ROR's $7.5M cap hit wouldn't have been unmanageable and wouldn't have created huge issues with Skinner's extension.

It would mean having to be smarter about not overpaying for non-impact guys like Vesey, Miller, Hutton, etc.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Or he can trade ROR away when he's not under pressure to do so, when Casey, Reinhart are further in their development.

Possible - but none of these players come close to replacing ROR either way.

Plus technically he would be under even more pressure to move him in this scenario since the team would be in a cap crunch....

Skinner simply wouldn't have been traded for if ROR didn't happen.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Having ROR and Skinner on the team together wouldn't have been an issue last season or this season.

With all the players hitting UFA after this season, you have flexibility.

And if they have ROR, perhaps they don't sign MoJo and that adds some flexibility this year and next.

ROR's $7.5M cap hit wouldn't have been unmanageable and wouldn't have created huge issues with Skinner's extension.

It would mean having to be smarter about not overpaying for non-impact guys like Vesey, Miller, Hutton, etc.

It would be manageable this season.

It would cause problems when it comes round to signing Dahlin, signing Reinhart, signing competent Dmen /bottom 6 forwards.

 

[Aladyyn]

It would be manageable this season.

It would cause problems when it comes round to signing Dahlin, signing Reinhart, signing competent Dmen /bottom 6 forwards.

We have our top 4 defensemen in place and could afford to move one of Montour/Risto to save cap long-term. Bottom 6 forwards are cheap when your name isn't Botterill.

 

[Sabretooth]

man I wish this were the reality where we had too many good players we'd struggle to sign them all instead of the reality where fans pretended that were the case in order to feel better about a terrible trade

 

[Jim Bob]

It would be manageable this season.

It would cause problems when it comes round to signing Dahlin, signing Reinhart, signing competent Dmen /bottom 6 forwards.

When Dahlin signs his second contract, Okposo will have two years left at $6M per. If they really need cap space, then they could give Seattle a 1st to take Okposo in the expansion draft.

Having ROR and Skinner in the fold together would allow the Sabres to have a roster akin to teams like the Caps.

Every team needs contributions from players on ELCs in today's cap NHL.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

We have our top 4 defensemen in place and could afford to move one of Montour/Risto to save cap long-term. Bottom 6 forwards are cheap when your name isn't Botterill.

At the time of the trade, very little on D was in place.

Bottom six forwards are cheap on unsuccessful teams. You can't sign guys like Larsson because too much money is tied up within the top six.

I can't think of a successful cap era team (other than Pittsburgh who have two generational talents) who loaded so much of the cap in their top 6. Toronto are the latest advert showing why you shouldn't build a team this way.

 

[OkimLom]

Possible - but none of these players come close to replacing ROR either way.

Plus technically he would be under even more pressure to move him in this scenario since the team would be in a cap crunch....

Skinner simply wouldn't have been traded for if ROR didn't happen.

Just showing an option IF the contracts are an issue (they wouldn't be) and the ease they can get relief.

As for the 2nd statement, that would require Foresight from the GM to be able to read that situation if required.

And for the 3rd statement, the Skinner trade shouldn't have happened if the ROR trade did or didn't happen.

 

[sabremike]

At the time of the trade, very little on D was in place.

Bottom six forwards are cheap on unsuccessful teams. You can't sign guys like Larsson because too much money is tied up within the top six.

I can't think of a successful cap era team (other than Pittsburgh who have two generational talents) who loaded so much of the cap in their top 6. Toronto are the latest advert showing why you shouldn't build a team this way.

Man I'd HATE being in the position Toronto is in of being a legit contender for at least the next 5 seasons. Our current position of being close to a stone cold lock to tie the league record for most consecutive seasons out of the playoffs after missing out this season and next is way better. Their fans must be filled with envy.

 

[OkimLom]

At the time of the trade, very little on D was in place.

Bottom six forwards are cheap on unsuccessful teams. You can't sign guys like Larsson because too much money is tied up within the top six.

I can't think of a successful cap era team (other than Pittsburgh who have two generational talents) who loaded so much of the cap in their top 6. Toronto are the latest advert showing why you shouldn't build a team this way.

Colorado. Tampa. Chicago (during their cup runs).

 

[Orange Fanta]

For the 1,000th time - having all these guys signed long term would never have been feasible. Unless the plan was to ice an AHL level D behind them....

Yes - it would have been possible to not make the ROR trade while still making the Skinner trade. In the short term.

But that's not the point. How do you extend Skinner, extend Reinhart, extend Dahlin, extend Montour etc while you have that extra 7.5m hit also on the books? You can't.

I would take ROR 10/10 times over Skinner... But let's not pretend that Skinner would have been a Sabre if ROR trade doesn't happen.

The problem wouldn't be ror and skinner's contracts it would be having dead weight on the roster. The team was put in a predicament well before this with tim murray too, the asset management lead to a domino effect from rushing the rebuild with trades to rushing prospects. But the ror trade was awful 7.5m is not a bad contract for a 2c on a winning team especially a 1c in ror, yeah maybe thomas was untouchable but taking two cap dumps a late first and a b+ prospect we should've got an extra prospect in either kyrou or kostin. It was well known we needed top 6 help on the wing and better d but we got none of that with the ror trade and after botts acquired that he already left a glaring hole at 2c killing any possible chance at depth scoring.

 

[Aladyyn]

At the time of the trade, very little on D was in place.

Bottom six forwards are cheap on unsuccessful teams. You can't sign guys like Larsson because too much money is tied up within the top six.

I can't think of a successful cap era team (other than Pittsburgh who have two generational talents) who loaded so much of the cap in their top 6. Toronto are the latest advert showing why you shouldn't build a team this way.

Toronto has 3 forwards making more than Jack Eichel, bad example.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Just showing an option IF the contracts are an issue (they wouldn't be) and the ease they can get relief.

As for the 2nd statement, that would require Foresight from the GM to be able to read that situation if required.

And for the 3rd statement, the Skinner trade shouldn't have happened if the ROR trade did or didn't happen.

Eh? You think the Skinner trade was bad?!

You can debate the extension (I didn't like it either) but the trade was hands down a 'win' for Botts.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Man I'd HATE being in the position Toronto is in of being a legit contender for at least the next 5 seasons. Our current position of being close to a stone cold lock to tie the league record for most consecutive seasons out of the playoffs after missing out this season and next is way better. Their fans must be filled with envy.

The last time I checked, the aim of the game was to actually win in the playoffs once you get there...

 

[Aladyyn]

The last time I checked, the aim of the game was to actually win in the playoffs once you get there...

The divisional playoff format is very stupid.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Colorado. Tampa. Chicago (during their cup runs).

Only truly 'successful' team listed there is Chicago - their big contracts were 3F & 2D - further proving my point.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

The problem wouldn't be ror and skinner's contracts it would be having dead weight on the roster. The team was put in a predicament well before this with tim murray too, the asset management lead to a domino effect from rushing the rebuild with trades to rushing prospects. But the ror trade was awful 7.5m is not a bad contract for a 2c on a winning team especially a 1c in ror, yeah maybe thomas was untouchable but taking two cap dumps a late first and a b+ prospect we should've got an extra prospect in either kyrou or kostin. It was well known we needed top 6 help on the wing and better d but we got none of that with the ror trade and after botts acquired that he already left a glaring hole at 2c killing any possible chance at depth scoring.

None of the above are points which I'm arguing against...

It was a bad trade - one which I personally think was forced (at least in part) by ownership... another dead horse - let's move on.

My issue is the narrative that the Skinner trade would have happened if the ROR trade didn't.

 

[Jame]

It would be manageable this season.

It would cause problems when it comes round to signing Dahlin, signing Reinhart, signing competent Dmen /bottom 6 forwards.

Have a spreadsheet

ROR and Skinner would have presented zero long term issues on the cap... even post Reinhart, Dahlin, etc extensions.

all it would've required was a semi competent manager....