OT: The OT Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bojack Horvatman

IAMGROOT
Jun 15, 2016
4,262
7,582
The arguments from the 2nd group are basically this :

1) Nobody can take away my right to drive a car! I have the right to do whatever I want on the roads and don't need to be sober or have a license!

2) How dare my employer ask me to wear a uniform! And threaten to fire me if I don't! My rights are being taken away!

It's a variation on the long-ongoing problem that most people simply don't understand the difference between freedom of speech and freedom from consequences. 'Freedom of speech' means you can say what you want without fear of being thrown in jail by the government. It doesn't mean your job is protected if you go online and trash your employer and they find out. Likewise, people are free to not get the vaccine if they want. But it doesn't mean it isn't totally legal and right for there to be consequences of that decision.

It's basically a group of ignorant, entitled idiots who think they should be able to act however they want whenever and wherever they want without any consequences, ever. And are absolutely shocked when there are.

100%. I think a big part of it is how politicized this issue has become, and how much misinformation and media attention there is about it. Pandemic measures are really no different than other laws we have in place for the safety of the general public. You don't hear about complaints about driving laws, fire and electric codes, OSHA, water treatment and quality laws, campfire bans etc. At least not to this degree. If people were forced to wear masks as regular ppe like steel toe boots and hard hats there would be zero fuss about muh freedoms. But because masks were apart of this "plandemic and great reset", it is tyranny. If there was more new coverage from the right wing media about camp fire bans being against your freedom and government tyranny, you would see protests about camp fire bans.
 

tradervik

Hear no evil, see no evil, complain about it
Sponsor
Jun 25, 2007
2,377
2,509

mriswith

Registered User
Oct 12, 2011
4,238
7,553
I have found that having a reasonable conversation in good faith with anyone on covid, if their opinion differs from my own even a little bit, to be nearly impossible. I have tried a lot.

99.9% of people think in completely ideological terms about covid. I don't think it's that high for other political issues, although it is increasing. I actually read a fair amount of the scientific journal articles on covid and when I reference them, people dismiss it out of hand for overestimating covid or underestimating covid depending on their leanings. I can literally send them a link to one of the top scientific journals and have them handwave it away, it's amazing. Outright denial of facts, data and statistics.

I am not sure how this trend could slow down. BC has been pretty middle of the road for covid measures, lots of places have been a lot more extreme in both directions. You'd think there would be some common ground for discussion, like "if not with the measures you dislike, then how can we ensure that we cooperate together so that the extremely contagious virus kills substantially less people and doesn't overwhelm the hospitals" on the one side, and "how can we ensure that unlike every other crisis, temporary authoritarian emergency powers actually end up being temporary for once" on the other side.

But everyone instantly gets emotional and ideological, and you get nowhere. I've mostly given up trying. It's a scary trend, because ideologues on both the left and the right push radicalization forward and that's how you end up repeating the 20th century all over again, but with a 21st century technology twist.
 
Last edited:

Jimnastic

Canucks Diehard
Nov 13, 2017
463
628
Sydney
I am in Australia. Last weekend their were protests in planned in Sydney and Melbourne. Sydney cancelled all trains and bus stops in the city centre for the period of the rally. Taxis and Ubers were told they would be fined ($10K????) if they dropped someone downtown. And the police fined anyone who was in the downtown area without a valid reason. Yay.

In Melbourne about 3000 people protested. The police arrested over 200 and fined over 500 with $5000 fines. Also yay.
 

rypper

21-12-05 it's finally over.
Dec 22, 2006
16,561
20,616
I am in Australia. Last weekend their were protests in planned in Sydney and Melbourne. Sydney cancelled all trains and bus stops in the city centre for the period of the rally. Taxis and Ubers were told they would be fined ($10K????) if they dropped someone downtown. And the police fined anyone who was in the downtown area without a valid reason. Yay.

In Melbourne about 3000 people protested. The police arrested over 200 and fined over 500 with $5000 fines. Also yay.

I would support fines like that for protesting in front of a hospital, delaying ambulances, or harassing health care workers.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
I have found that having a reasonable conversation in good faith with anyone on covid, if their opinion differs from my own even a little bit, to be nearly impossible. I have tried a lot.

99.9% of people think in completely ideological terms about covid. I don't think it's that high for other political issues, although it is increasing. I actually read a fair amount of the scientific journal articles on covid and when I reference them, people dismiss it out of hand for overestimating covid or underestimating covid depending on their leanings. I can literally send them a link to one of the top scientific journals and have them handwave it away, it's amazing. Outright denial of facts, data and statistics.

I am not sure how this trend could slow down. BC has been pretty middle of the road for covid measures, lots of places have been a lot more extreme in both directions. You'd think there would be some common ground for discussion, like "if not with the measures you dislike, then how can we ensure that we cooperate together so that the extremely contagious virus kills substantially less people and doesn't overwhelm the hospitals" on the one side, and "how can we ensure that unlike every other crisis, temporary authoritarian emergency powers actually end up being temporary for once" on the other side.

But everyone instantly gets emotional and ideological, and you get nowhere. I've mostly given up trying. It's a scary trend, because ideologues on both the left and the right push radicalization forward and that's how you end up repeating the 20th century all over again, but with a 21st century technology twist.

There should of course be nothing political about listening to scientists and following the evidence, public health safety and managing a pandemic. The social consequences of COVID have been devastating for me. I don't talk to my parents anymore because they refuse to acknowledge that the virus is real and will not get the vaccine. I don't want people like that in my life. So I have no parents any more. I couldn't care less about their political leanings but this has nothing to do with politics for me. It's about science, logic and reason. They stopped watching the news because they didn't like what it was saying, so they declared it fake and instead found people on the internet to tell them exactly what they wanted to hear. This is an approach to information acquisition validated by recent US politics that is absolutely terrifying to me. Two people can form different opinions if they are operating from the same set of facts, but if people are simply inventing facts and acting like their made-up facts are defensible opinions then there is no way to make headway.

This is the part of the pandemic that I feel has not gotten much attention, but regardless of how the next year or 3 years or 5 years or 10 years shakes out, the social ramifications are permanent and relationships are being forever damaged. I don't see how I will ever recover from it to be honest.
 

RandV

It's a wolf v2.0
Jul 29, 2003
26,868
4,973
Vancouver
Visit site
I am not sure how this trend could slow down. BC has been pretty middle of the road for covid measures, lots of places have been a lot more extreme in both directions. You'd think there would be some common ground for discussion, like "if not with the measures you dislike, then how can we ensure that we cooperate together so that the extremely contagious virus kills substantially less people and doesn't overwhelm the hospitals" on the one side, and "how can we ensure that unlike every other crisis, temporary authoritarian emergency powers actually end up being temporary for once" on the other side.

But everyone instantly gets emotional and ideological, and you get nowhere. I've mostly given up trying. It's a scary trend, because ideologues on both the left and the right push radicalization forward and that's how you end up repeating the 20th century all over again, but with a 21st century technology twist.

Right from the start it doesn't help that I think this is completely irrational.

From a Canada/US perspective if you're worried about potential authoritarian scope creep in the 21st century, will we got off on the wrong foot right from the start when the war on terror created mass surveillance. The vast majority of people happily adopted smart phones that allow tech companies to vacuum up vast quantities of data to profile you, and social media has enabled disinformation campaigns on a vast scale.

In comparison 5 years from now Covid-19 will barely be a blip on the radar. First off most restrictions/policies are being implemented at the provincial/state level. They incur major debt, hurt/kill businesses, and if not being tolerated for a global pandemic are massively unpopular. Not to mention the majority of stuff being implemented already exists in one form or another: passports, vaccine requirements, showing your phone to get in the door, etc etc. The moment we can put this pandemic behind us no government is going to attempt to keep any of this in place, in Canada especially if they even tried it they'd quickly be shown the door at the next election.

When it comes down to it people just need to stop using WWII to put everything into context, especially when the majority spouting these things probably only understand the cliff notes version of it.
 

Blue and Green

Out to lunch
Dec 17, 2017
3,515
3,542
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
 

logan5

Registered User
May 24, 2011
6,197
4,404
Vancouver - Mt. Pleasant
Yeah, there are two groups involved here.

1) The generally left-leaning super-granola 'natural healing' types who don't understand chemistry and think any sort of synthesized chemical is evil and have been anti-vax long before COVID.

2) The right-wing Trump base ignorant white trash 'muh freedoms!' crowd who don't understand the difference between freedom of speech/choice and freedom from consequence and who are paranoid of the government and conspiracies. And don't give a shit about anybody but themselves.

Both are dumb as f*** but the second group is worse.

It's definitely way more of #2. Using the American example, the most left leaning states are the most vaccinated.
 

M2Beezy

Objective and Neutral Hockey Commentator
Sponsor
May 25, 2014
45,953
31,391
There should of course be nothing political about listening to scientists and following the evidence, public health safety and managing a pandemic. The social consequences of COVID have been devastating for me. I don't talk to my parents anymore because they refuse to acknowledge that the virus is real and will not get the vaccine. I don't want people like that in my life. So I have no parents any more. I couldn't care less about their political leanings but this has nothing to do with politics for me. It's about science, logic and reason. They stopped watching the news because they didn't like what it was saying, so they declared it fake and instead found people on the internet to tell them exactly what they wanted to hear. This is an approach to information acquisition validated by recent US politics that is absolutely terrifying to me. Two people can form different opinions if they are operating from the same set of facts, but if people are simply inventing facts and acting like their made-up facts are defensible opinions then there is no way to make headway.

This is the part of the pandemic that I feel has not gotten much attention, but regardless of how the next year or 3 years or 5 years or 10 years shakes out, the social ramifications are permanent and relationships are being forever damaged. I don't see how I will ever recover from it to be honest.
Really tough choices there Melvin, I have done the same tho I dont have parents but with other family who have gone completely insane over Covid by denying it, denying vaccines or now saying its a personal choice.

Like f***, is drinking and driving a personal choice? Or smoking on an airplane or restaurant?

Not taking the vaccine causes health problems for other people. This aint fair.

Tough choice Melvin but principled and admirable
 

Bad Goalie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
20,103
8,839
Today I saw a very scary, but seemingly very true printed statement.

It read, "We have entered the Golden Age of Stupidity". It follows the pattern of the medieval times history calls the Dark Ages.

The leaders and the people who followed them turned their brains against anything logical, factual, or scientific. It was primarily a religious theory pushed by the church who gained all the power and wealth when taking down the thinkers, philosophers, scienece minded, etc. It only worked because the masses accepted the words of the clerics as gospel. They burned people alive for voicing disagreement with them among the other many methods they had of silencing the non believers.

In the US today a certain number of talk radio and cable TV personalities have somehow earned acceptance of all the non facts and conspiracy theories they spew. Certain political hacks have learned that by backing these viewpoints, the huge throngs of wackos who have swallowed this kool-aid then vote to put them in office. Other members of their party who may not agree with the stupidity go along with it in lockstep or simply don't say anything, but vote along the party lines for fear if they speak otherwise, they will lose their cushy elected positions and the income they pick up from supporting certain lobbyists. We now see any perceived traitors in he party threatened with primaries for their offices.

I hate to bring him up but Trump was the biggest beneficiary of this political style. He pushed and backed all kinds of shit he didn't even care about because the followers would love him. If you go back in his history, the guy has never been a Christian in any way, yet he told the devout religious right he would back their desires and promised to do everything in hjis power to rid the land of abortion. He put judges on the supreme court who are now crawling along to declare Roe/Wade unconstitutional and once again completely eliminate abortion in the US. If you are really a person who follows the teaching of JC you couldn't accept that guy for a second, but they ignore the list of unchristian behaviors and policies he embraced because they will get the one thing they elected him for. The "party of the people" is marching in lock step to eliminate a vast number of freedoms that certain groups of Americans have worked decades or longer to achieve.

I'll stop.
 

RandV

It's a wolf v2.0
Jul 29, 2003
26,868
4,973
Vancouver
Visit site
Today I saw a very scary, but seemingly very true printed statement.

It read, "We have entered the Golden Age of Stupidity". It follows the pattern of the medieval times history calls the Dark Ages.

The leaders and the people who followed them turned their brains against anything logical, factual, or scientific. It was primarily a religious theory pushed by the church who gained all the power and wealth when taking down the thinkers, philosophers, scienece minded, etc. It only worked because the masses accepted the words of the clerics as gospel. They burned people alive for voicing disagreement with them among the other many methods they had of silencing the non believers.

Actually let me stop you there first. This is what lots of us learned in school but the term "Dark Ages" has become outdated by modern scholars/historians/archaeologists who have learned a lot about the time period over the last few decades and no longer consider it "dark" but rather just full of misconceptions.

To cheat a little and borrow wikipedia for a summary:

Modern popular use

Science historian David C. Lindberg criticised the public use of 'dark ages' to describe the entire Middle Ages as "a time of ignorance, barbarism and superstition" for which "blame is most often laid at the feet of the Christian church, which is alleged to have placed religious authority over personal experience and rational activity".[55] Historian of science Edward Grant writes that "If revolutionary rational thoughts were expressed in the Age of Reason, they were made possible because of the long medieval tradition that established the use of reason as one of the most important of human activities".[56] Furthermore, Lindberg says that, contrary to common belief, "the late medieval scholar rarely experienced the coercive power of the church and would have regarded himself as free (particularly in the natural sciences) to follow reason and observation wherever they led".[57] Because of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire due to the Migration Period a lot of classical Greek texts were lost there, but part of these texts survived and they were studied widely in the Byzantine Empire and the Abbasid Caliphate. Around the eleventh and twelfth centuries in the High Middle Ages stronger monarchies emerged; borders were restored after the invasions of Vikings and Magyars; technological developments and agricultural innovations were made which increased the food supply and population. And the rejuvenation of science and scholarship in the West was due in large part to the new availability of Latin translations of Aristotle.[58]
Another view of the period is reflected by more specific notions such as the 19th-century claim[59][60] that everyone in the Middle Ages thought the world was flat.[60][61] In fact, lecturers in medieval universities commonly advanced the idea that the Earth was a sphere.[62] Lindberg and Ronald Numbers write: "There was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference".[63] Other misconceptions such as: "the Church prohibited autopsies and dissections during the Middle Ages", "the rise of Christianity killed off ancient science", and "the medieval Christian church suppressed the growth of natural philosophy", are cited by Numbers as examples of myths that still pass as historical truth, although unsupported by current research.[64]

Hard to say if there is a good equivalent to the modern problem, because the internet and social media is new to humanity and puts a new twist on it. I'm not a historian but if I had to take a stab at it I'd look at the Protestant Reformation. You had a new revolutionary technology in the printing press allowing people to publish and spread their thoughts & ideas on a massive scale, Luther putting down the Catholic church and basically declaring everyone's own interpretation of the bible can be correct leading to all sorts of wacky ideas (do your own research!), and a massive fracturing of European societies.

So I'd say what we have today is kind of a dumber version of the Protestant Reformation, and without the excessive violence. Also while I'm talking about this if anyone wants a good listen Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast episode Prophets of Doom is a great 4 hours of storytelling on what might be the wackiest episode of that time period, a little known event called the Munster rebellion. Costs $3 but it's worth it.
 

logan5

Registered User
May 24, 2011
6,197
4,404
Vancouver - Mt. Pleasant
Today I saw a very scary, but seemingly very true printed statement.

It read, "We have entered the Golden Age of Stupidity". It follows the pattern of the medieval times history calls the Dark Ages.

The leaders and the people who followed them turned their brains against anything logical, factual, or scientific. It was primarily a religious theory pushed by the church who gained all the power and wealth when taking down the thinkers, philosophers, scienece minded, etc. It only worked because the masses accepted the words of the clerics as gospel. They burned people alive for voicing disagreement with them among the other many methods they had of silencing the non believers.

In the US today a certain number of talk radio and cable TV personalities have somehow earned acceptance of all the non facts and conspiracy theories they spew. Certain political hacks have learned that by backing these viewpoints, the huge throngs of wackos who have swallowed this kool-aid then vote to put them in office. Other members of their party who may not agree with the stupidity go along with it in lockstep or simply don't say anything, but vote along the party lines for fear if they speak otherwise, they will lose their cushy elected positions and the income they pick up from supporting certain lobbyists. We now see any perceived traitors in he party threatened with primaries for their offices.

I hate to bring him up but Trump was the biggest beneficiary of this political style. He pushed and backed all kinds of shit he didn't even care about because the followers would love him. If you go back in his history, the guy has never been a Christian in any way, yet he told the devout religious right he would back their desires and promised to do everything in hjis power to rid the land of abortion. He put judges on the supreme court who are now crawling along to declare Roe/Wade unconstitutional and once again completely eliminate abortion in the US. If you are really a person who follows the teaching of JC you couldn't accept that guy for a second, but they ignore the list of unchristian behaviors and policies he embraced because they will get the one thing they elected him for. The "party of the people" is marching in lock step to eliminate a vast number of freedoms that certain groups of Americans have worked decades or longer to achieve.

I'll stop.
Ron Paul was right all along. America is slipping deeper into Fascism
 

Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
40,792
32,318
Kitimat, BC
Just a reminder that no political discussion is allowed guys. If you want to keep discussing the COVID situation, that’s OK as long as it all stays civil and non-political.
 

Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
40,792
32,318
Kitimat, BC
There should of course be nothing political about listening to scientists and following the evidence, public health safety and managing a pandemic. The social consequences of COVID have been devastating for me. I don't talk to my parents anymore because they refuse to acknowledge that the virus is real and will not get the vaccine. I don't want people like that in my life. So I have no parents any more. I couldn't care less about their political leanings but this has nothing to do with politics for me. It's about science, logic and reason. They stopped watching the news because they didn't like what it was saying, so they declared it fake and instead found people on the internet to tell them exactly what they wanted to hear. This is an approach to information acquisition validated by recent US politics that is absolutely terrifying to me. Two people can form different opinions if they are operating from the same set of facts, but if people are simply inventing facts and acting like their made-up facts are defensible opinions then there is no way to make headway.

This is the part of the pandemic that I feel has not gotten much attention, but regardless of how the next year or 3 years or 5 years or 10 years shakes out, the social ramifications are permanent and relationships are being forever damaged. I don't see how I will ever recover from it to be honest.

I'm really sorry to hear that, Melvin. Truly.

It's like a twisted variation of that "Rule 34" joke. If a topic exists, you can find something both advocating for it and decrying it on the internet. Never before has confirmation bias reigned so supreme.
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,536
8,705
A friend's parent will probably never go home again after having the misfortune of having to go to an over-capacity hospital in a place where all these dumb motherf***ers won't stop basically intentionally getting hospitalized with covid.

I can't remember which of you dumb assholes were going on about "well if the vaccine is so good, why does it matter to anyone else if I don't get it," but I hope that one day you gain that little sliver of self-awareness needed to notice that everyone around you f***ing hates you.
 
Last edited:

RussianRacket

He/Him/His Pronouns
Dec 29, 2019
3,970
3,673
Coast Salish Unceded Territory
When it comes down to it people just need to stop using WWII to put everything into context, especially when the majority spouting these things probably only understand the cliff notes version of it.
Disagree with the first part, agree with the second part. I don't think using the most significant catastrophe/crisis in the history of mankind as a reference point is necessarily a bad thing. For talking about how supposedly authoritative our government is being over vaccines, WWII is the outstanding example of how emergency measures in Canada have historically been enacted, been temporary, and been done away with when the need is no longer there. The War Measures Act was used in both World Wars (and the October Crisis), but we don't live in a permanent War Measures Act society. Likewise, WWII can be used as a reference point for what actual discrimination and persecution looks like in Canada, i.e. Japanese Internment Camps. The anti-vaxx conspiracy idiots likely don't even understand the cliff notes version of WWII and thus have no actual reference point to what emergency measures and persecution in Canadian society actually is. They ain't being thrown in camps, the government ain't taking their property or banning them from owning land.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bojack Horvatman

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,965
16,559
A friend's parent will probably never go home again after having the misfortune of having to go to an over-capacity hospital in a place where all these dumb motherf***ers won't stop basically intentionally getting hospitalized with covid.

I can't remember which of you dumb assholes were going on about "well if the vaccine is so good, why does it matter to anyone else if I don't get it," but I hope that one day you gain that little sliver of self-awareness needed to notice that everyone around you f***ing hates you.

that's so incredibly sad, and so obviously predictable
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad