OT: The OT Thread Part 5: New HF Talk

[ThreeOfAPerfectPair]

 

[Drivesaitl]

I hope this is not the beginning of a slippery slope towards US-style politics.

Look at the electoral map. Its significant that you could go all the Way from Hudsons Bay to the West coast and not hit anything but Conservative ridings. With hardly any liberal ridings in sight.

By last count 12 liberal elected in half of this country, the Western half. Same old same old.

Toronto. I won't even comment.

 

[Spawn]

Possible pause for thought.

You simply don't share the beliefs and mores and values of the province. But in democracy the electorate isn't often stated to be wrong, as you are stating, and a majority of Canadians voted Conservative last night.

More than 2/3 of the country voted for someone other than Trudeau.

This is the lowest popular vote of any government in the History of Canada.

Maybe you don't respect the plurality of the votes.

Which makes your vision of democracy hard to respect..

A majority of Canadians absolutely did not vote conservative.

A very small percentage of people voted conservative over liberal. An overwhelming majority of Canadians voted left vs right.

 

[syz]

Possible pause for thought.

You simply don't share the beliefs and mores and values of the province. But in democracy the electorate isn't often stated to be wrong, as you are stating, and a majority of Canadians voted Conservative last night.

More than 2/3 of the country voted for someone other than Trudeau.

This is the lowest popular vote of any government in the History of Canada.

Maybe you don't respect the plurality of the votes.

Which makes your vision of democracy hard to respect..

Take it up with the FPTP. That said neither the Liberals (despite stating the contrary 4 years ago) nor the Conservatives (despite their attempted spin tonight) nor the Bloc (right now, at least) have any real desire for electoral reform.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Good thing Trudeau followed through with his devout promises on electoral reform.. (sarcasm font)

Another oddity is the NDP having twice the votes as the Bloc and far less seats. Or the Green party having the same amount of votes as the Bloc but with the Bloc occupying 10X more seats.

Its a broke system.

 

[Cloned]

Take it up with the FPTP. That said neither the Liberals (despite stating the contrary 4 years ago) nor the Conservatives (despite their attempted spin tonight) nor the Bloc (right now, at least) have any real desire for electoral reform.

What other systems are practical though? Proportional representation isn’t necessarily without its pitfalls either.

 

[Oilhawks]

What other systems are practical though? Proportional representation isn’t necessarily without its pitfalls either.

Benevolent dictatorship?

Or whatever Metal Gear Solid 2 was about.

 

[Cloned]

Good thing Trudeau followed through with his devout promises on electoral reform.. (sarcasm font)

Another oddity is the NDP having twice the votes as the Bloc and far less seats. Or the Green party having the same amount of votes as the Bloc but with the Bloc occupying 10X more seats.

Its a broke system.

Well the Bloc is a disgrace anyways. A true spit on your grave type of betrayal of Confederation. A federal party based on separatist nationalism? What kind of nonsense is that?

 

[Cloned]

Benevolent dictatorship?

I have enough of that on HF.

 

[Drivesaitl]

A majority of Canadians absolutely did not vote conservative.

A very small percentage of people voted conservative over liberal. An overwhelming majority of Canadians voted left vs right.

44% of the vote was to right parties. Not a "very small percentage" That's a somewhat specious look in anycase as parties are increasingly centrist in present day politics.

Further there is presently one mainstream National Conservative party and 3-4 mainstream left oriented parties.

In anycase it doesn't change that the ruling govt got less than a third of the votes and LESS than the Conservative party obtained.

 

[harpoon]

A very small percentage of people voted conservative over liberal. An overwhelming majority of Canadians voted left vs right

A very small percentage? Talk about living in a dream world. Anything to say about the vote totals that @ThreeOfAPerfectPair just posted?

 

[Cloned]

44% of the vote was to right parties. Not a "very small percentage" That's a somewhat specious look in anycase as parties are increasingly centrist in present day politics.

Further there is presently one mainstream National Conservative party and 3-4 mainstream left oriented parties.

In anycase it doesn't change that the ruling govt got less than a third of the votes and LESS than the Conservative party obtained.

What, you don’t consider the PPC a mainstream party?

 

[Drivesaitl]

A very small percentage? Talk about living in a dream world. Anything to say about the vote totals that @ThreeOfAPerfectPair just posted?

Nothing other than denial apparently.

Well, this will be an interesting 1 or 2 yrs.

The weakest mandate ever Granted to any Prime Minister in the history of Canada. You'd never know it from the speech tonight or Trudeau appearing at the SAME TIME to pre-empt the speeches of two other party leaders. An act of defiance never seen before in any election here. Alberta and Sask and much of the country are important, but not important enough that Trudeau could wait for the other speeches to occur.

important to note that Trudeau didn't pre-empt the bloc speech and would never do that. We got to hear all 15mins of that one live..

 

[syz]

A very small percentage? Talk about living in a dream world. Anything to say about the vote totals that @ThreeOfAPerfectPair just posted?

Are you suggesting that 1.4 isn't a small percentage?

Have to admit though, not at all surprised that this has already become a Conservative talking point. Even after Scheer said that it didn't matter before the election.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The whole election story. GTA 45liberal 5 conservative. One City deciding for Canada once again. The Liberals got 30% of their electoral wins all in the GTA. What a working system.

 

[Spawn]

44% of the vote was to right parties. Not a "very small percentage" That's a somewhat specious look in anycase as parties are increasingly centrist in present day politics.

Further there is presently one mainstream National Conservative party and 3-4 mainstream left oriented parties.

In anycase it doesn't change that the ruling govt got less than a third of the votes and LESS than the Conservative party obtained.

Not sure how 34.4% and 1.6% gets you to 44. Unless you’re trying to include the bloc as a right party? Now that would be specious...

Damn, I’d love if there was a couple mainstream conservative parties. They’d never be in power again. The conservative strength is entirely in the fact that they don’t have other parties to compete with on the right.

 

[McKappa]

Thank God that the PPC didn't gain any traction.

Wexit is the stupidest idea in Canadian politics rigtt now

 

[Drivesaitl]

Not sure how 34.4% and 1.6% gets you to 44. Unless you’re trying to include the bloc as a right party? Now that would be specious...

Damn, I’d love if there was a couple mainstream conservative parties. They’d never be in power again. The conservative strength is entirely in the fact that they don’t have other parties to compete with on the right.

I wouldn't say the Bloc were left or liberal minded. I dare say a lot of people fearful of them wouldn't either. I did include them as a right wing party. They even have right wing extremism platforms. They do strike me as right wing at least in regards to social platforms and societal engineering. Many consider them an extremist party.

The conservative party demise is due to a spell of really bad leadership, still getting over reform fractures, and having what is a really poor war room presently. There is no dominance of the Canadian landscape left wing or right wing. I guess you're too young to remember when the Liberals had only 40 seats under John Turner or were in disarray as little as a decade ago.

The Bloc are very aligned now with Legault, how would figure they are not right leaning. The CAQ are as right as it gets on this continent.

 

[oXo Cube]

Hilarious to watch all the trumpers in here whining about how their party just lost an election despite "winning" the popular vote.

Of course they didn't even win that if you actually think about it for half a second.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Hilarious to watch all the trumpers in here whining about how their party just lost an election despite "winning" the popular vote.

Of course they didn't even win that if you actually think about it for half a second.

Enjoy more embarrassments of a Trudeau led govt, only this time a Minority govt subject to much more scrutiny and feet held over the fire. The Liberals won't be able to control the house as easily as they did with a landslide type majority.

In anycase, as mentioned before, the era of populist politics has worked hard to straddle centrist platform. The Liberals win because they have a far better war room at this point and that the Cons are still shattered from Reform and Alliance leanings. The Cons lost their way as Charles Adler adroitly stated last night. He had a lot of good comments on where its gone wrong for the Conservatives and Scheer who threw this election away with myriad bad advice.

While it can seem that theres more left than right its really just the liberals being better at straddling right. The Cons get too easily shuffled off center by some antiquated background and stances that do them no favors. The Liberals to their credit have been more responsive to the shifting Canadian realities.

But the Liberals are pretty Center. The NDP or the Green Party would more indicate how limited the support is for more positioned to leftist policy.

Center of the spectrum is where the votes are, try to argue differently.

 

[oXo Cube]

Enjoy more embarrassments of a Trudeau led govt, only this time a Minority govt subject to much more scrutiny and feet held over the fire. The Liberals won't be able to control the house as easily as they did with a landslide type majority.

In anycase, as mentioned before, the era of populist politics has worked hard to straddle centrist platform. The Liberals win because they have a far better war room at this point and that the Cons are still shattered from Reform and Alliance leanings. The Cons lost their way as Charles Adler adroitly stated last night. He had a lot of good comments on where its gone wrong for the Conservatives.

I can't say I'm a huge fan of the LPC and especially not Justin Trudeau specficially.

But they need to keep winning because both the CPC and the province of Alberta need to get their shit together yesterday and they've both made it clear that that isn't going to happen until it's forced on them.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Without getting you guys to mad at me

Discussion I had on line with a #wexit person

Them-"we gotta leave canada"
Me "how?"
Them "we leave"
Me,"what's your plan"
Them "we f***ing leave"
Me "how do you leave"
Them "we f***jng leave"
Me "how about joing the USA"
Them "yeah..that's an idea"
Me "you want trump as your leader?"
Them "f*** ya"

You get the idea. I truly think a few people think it would be easy to leave Canada and join the usa.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

IMO, Scheer lost this election because he couldn't speak french. Quebec and the other french canadian ridings were the low hanging fruit that Scheer couldn't capitalize on because he couldn't communicate his message in both official languages. Those french anti-liberal votes went to the bloc in QC and to the Greens in NB. If you look at most of the french ridings, the conservatives finished a very distant 2nd or 3rd.

This was the easiest election to win for the conservatives. They just had to point out all of Trudeau's flaws in french and english and they would have won a majority.

As for @Drivesaitl Toronto observations. Conservatives will never win in the Toronto core because the general feeling there is that any right wing party is "literally worse than you know who"

The path to a conservative majority was always through Quebec and the Conservatives selected a leader who couldn't speak french. Epic Fail. That's like selecting Eakins over Krueger level of failure.

The election was lost for the conservatives in the first french debate.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I can't say I'm a huge fan of the LPC and especially not Justin Trudeau specficially.

But they need to keep winning because both the CPC and the province of Alberta need to get their **** together yesterday and they've both made it clear that that isn't going to happen until it's forced on them.

Absolutely, and if you see my edits I agree entirely. Agree with pretty much everything Adler had to say last night and I do say its a pity not more of it is online yet. He nailed the election and the Conservatives failure again last night. Make no mistake it was blatant failure. The Trudeau term in office was so bad anything but victory is clear failure. Scheer tried to dress it otherwise in his speech but as many indicated it comes off as self saving. The Cons need to turf him pronto.

The Cons had several strong women in their fold and Scheer is known to have canvassed very poorly to woman. Really I'd be more comfortable with any of these Woman candidates who would be far more popular leaders and would be more positioned to upseat Trudeau and his own specious brand of feminism.

Conservatives have 'brand problem' among female voters, pin hopes on Scheer, star women MPs to reverse trend

The old con party did it all wrong.

 

[Drivesaitl]

IMO, Scheer lost this election because he couldn't speak french. Quebec and the other french canadian ridings were the low hanging fruit that Scheer couldn't capitalize on because he couldn't communicate his message in both official languages. Those french anti-liberal votes went to the bloc in QC and to the Greens in NB. If you look at most of the french ridings, the conservatives finished a very distant 2nd or 3rd.

This was the easiest election to win for the conservatives. They just had to point out all of Trudeau's flaws in french and english and they would have won a majority.

As for @Drivesaitl Toronto observations. Conservatives will never win in the Toronto core because the general feeling there is that any right wing party is "literally worse than you know who"

The path to a conservative majority was always through Quebec and the Conservatives selected a leader who couldn't speak french. Epic Fail. That's like selecting Eakins over Krueger level of failure.

The election was lost for the conservatives in the first french debate.

Scheer lost the election because he couldn't speak to women. Period. Whether it should be the case is up for grabs but he was easily pigeon holed on anti women sentiments and he failed to dispel it. Many pundits pointed this out.

The Election wasn't lost in Quebec. The Bloc helped ensure that. It was lost in GTA, and then later the chance to make it closer was lost in Lower Mainland. If BC votes anywhere in line with the west of WC this is a hung election. It was that close.