The Offseason Thread (Previously Retool vs Rebuild)

[Columbus Jack]

For whatever reason, folks on this site are unbothered by the risks of a nuclear rebuild, and willing to take chances on prospects that might not pan out, while the risks of taking on an established superstar loom large. Perhaps it is no surprise that the boards began as "hockeysfuture boards", because people sure love them their futures.

And personally, I do too! Following the development of young players is one of the few redeeming things when your team sucks. What pulls me towards the trade, in this specific instance, is that our organizational depth chart at wing is projected to be very deep and flat in a few years. Trading off from our forward depth to get a real star #1C looks much better in that light.



We're not short on support pieces. I don't know where this idea comes from. We can't support Laine, true, but that's because he's a pure complement and a special case. Eichel isn't like that. He needs topline capable wingers but we've got Bjorkstrand, an unambiguous topline wing, and several young wingers who could develop into a second-best wing type of role. And Laine, if you like him. And we're only slated to get deeper on the wings. By 2023 (with the potential UFAs asterisked):

LW	C	RW
Nyquist*	Roslovic	Bjorkstrand
Texier	Voronkov	Laine*
Domi*	Angle	Marchenko
Foudy	Dunne	Chinakhov
Robinson*	Stenlund*	Atkinson
Jenner*		Bemstrom
Hofmann*		TFW

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Keep in mind that on top of this,

#1 - there's a lot of spending money available, whatever we lose in Jones, Werenski, the various UFAs, we have to spend money somewhere to stay above the cap floor. So that means good players coming in that also need roster spots.

#2 - there's a new wave of prospects coming in from this draft, the #5 pick is probably going to be on the Jackets roster by 2023, if not 2022.

So yeah I'm not bothered by moving out some of the depth to get a star or two.

So we're penciling a bunch of prospects in our top 6 and calling them support pieces? They are wide unknowns, albeit unknowns I like the potential of but unknowns nonetheless. They have yet to prove anything at the NHL level, pretty crazy to me to call them legit support pieces. Texier I like but who knows if he bounces back, let's freaking hope so. The rest of those guys have limited to no experience in the NHL, those aren't legit support pieces. At least not support pieces on any winning team that I know of. Sure they can develop into good players but let's hold the phone on calling them anything more than hopeful prospects. Years of being a CBJ fan should really be drilled in to everyone by now that promising prospects does not equal future good team.

That being said, if we truly lose Jones, Werenski, and other UFAs, God only know how much money they are going to throw a James Wisniewski type FA to sign here to stay above the cap. Just because we have to spend money does not mean it will be spent on the right players and it certainly doesn't guarantee that we will be any good anytime soon. Keep building in through the draft and then trade them for that high profile star forward, this team is still a bunch of unknowns/suck.

 

[majormajor]

So we're penciling a bunch of prospects in our top 6 and calling them support pieces? They are wide unknowns, albeit unknowns I like the potential of but unknowns nonetheless. They have yet to prove anything at the NHL level, pretty crazy to me to call them legit support pieces. Texier I like but who knows if he bounces back, let's freaking hope so. The rest of those guys have limited to no experience in the NHL, those aren't legit support pieces. At least not support pieces on any winning team that I know of. Sure they can develop into good players but let's hold the phone on calling them anything more than hopeful prospects. Years of being a CBJ fan should really be drilled in to everyone by now that promising prospects does not equal future good team..

Great, so I take it you wouldn't mind including three or four of our 14 potential wingers in an Eichel trade, right?

I'm hearing from some people that they'd much rather have Texier + Marchenko + #5OA than Jack Eichel, and I'm hearing from you that we shouldn't trade for Jack Eichel because those young pieces aren't going to be good enough to play helpful roles alongside Jack Eichel.

 

[VT]

For whatever reason, folks on this site are unbothered by the risks of a nuclear rebuild, and willing to take chances on prospects that might not pan out, while the risks of taking on an established superstar loom large. Perhaps it is no surprise that the boards began as "hockeysfuture boards", because people sure love them their futures.

And personally, I do too! Following the development of young players is one of the few redeeming things when your team sucks. What pulls me towards the trade, in this specific instance, is that our organizational depth chart at wing is projected to be very deep and flat in a few years. Trading off from our forward depth to get a real star #1C looks much better in that light.



We're not short on support pieces. I don't know where this idea comes from. We can't support Laine, true, but that's because he's a pure complement and a special case. Eichel isn't like that. He needs topline capable wingers but we've got Bjorkstrand, an unambiguous topline wing, and several young wingers who could develop into a second-best wing type of role. And Laine, if you like him. And we're only slated to get deeper on the wings. By 2023 (with the potential UFAs asterisked):

LW	C	RW
Nyquist*	Roslovic	Bjorkstrand
Texier	Voronkov	Laine*
Domi*	Angle	Marchenko
Foudy	Dunne	Chinakhov
Robinson*	Stenlund*	Atkinson
Jenner*		Bemstrom
Hofmann*		TFW

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Keep in mind that on top of this,

#1 - there's a lot of spending money available, whatever we lose in Jones, Werenski, the various UFAs, we have to spend money somewhere to stay above the cap floor. So that means good players coming in that also need roster spots.

#2 - there's a new wave of prospects coming in from this draft, the #5 pick is probably going to be on the Jackets roster by 2023, if not 2022.

So yeah I'm not bothered by moving out some of the depth to get a star or two.

This season was bad for Patrik but he`s a TOP player and don`t need support of players so I don`t see any reason to look special partner for him. What`s happen your roster I would make some change, for example Texier to Roslovic and Bjork, Foudy to Voronkov and Laine... (btw this couple... I can only agree with you).

Roslovic has very good chemistry with Bemstrom and IMHO Tex would be idela to this couple. I think Laine has very good chemistry with Foudy. And if still without Voronkov I would try Dunne to them. Josh is very good in defense, has quite good positional play. Maybe I`m mistaken but I have feeling they (he and PL) have good chemistry. Nyquist has good chemistry with Bjork and between them young Angle.

Texier--Roslovic--Bemstrom 22--24--22
Foudy--Dunne--Laine 21--23--23
Nyquist--Angle--Bjorkstrand 26--21--26
Robinson--Jenner--Atkinson 26--28--32

Btw if Eichel is so great he must make his partners better. If he needs partners he isn`t and we don`t need him for so big value (draft picks/players) especially with is neck. .

 

[EDM]

So you have Tex & Bemstrum playing on our top line ???? I take it you are going for the No. 1 pick in the 2022 draft.

 

[VT]

So you have Tex & Bemstrum playing on our top line ???? I take it you are going for the No. 1 pick in the 2022 draft.

I put the players into four lines to balanced the team. In addition, I expect Foudy, Bemstrom and Texier`ll progress. Dunne is there because of his good defense, playing in front of the goal, quite a good positional game. It is also a team without Domi (injured reserve).
And the most important thing it`s the team without new players if they`ll be. I don`t cound Hofmann, Danforth and Chinakhov although I would like to see Yegor in the roster.
Btw we want rebuild the team.

 

[cslebn]

It feels like we have too many depth players, too many reclamation projects and too much high reward/no risk for too few slots.

Adding players like Nolan Patrick only makes this worse.

We need players that can slot some of current guys into correct roles or at least split time with them.

It's a weird spot to be in but darned if they don't need to commit drastically to one or the other direction.

 

[JacketsDavid]

It feels like we have too many depth players, too many reclamation projects and too much high reward/no risk for too few slots.

Adding players like Nolan Patrick only makes this worse.

We need players that can slot some of current guys into correct roles or at least split time with them.

It's a weird spot to be in but darned if they don't need to commit drastically to one or the other direction.

I agree but that seems to be a pretty common off season for the CBJ. We always have a tone of depth guys locked up and usually (this is different) a few prospects we want to make room for. And as always we are hoping a handful of young guys step up from prior years performance. As usual we need a top line C and could use a playmaking winger. Then this year we are likely looking for a top 4 dman as well (we had that luxury last year of having enough and giving Murray away) to replace Jones.

 

[cslebn]

I agree but that seems to be a pretty common off season for the CBJ. We always have a tone of depth guys locked up and usually (this is different) a few prospects we want to make room for. And as always we are hoping a handful of young guys step up from prior years performance. As usual we need a top line C and could use a playmaking winger. Then this year we are likely looking for a top 4 dman as well (we had that luxury last year of having enough and giving Murray away) to replace Jones.

And Savard really.

It just feels like we're playing with more unknowns than we'd like. How do you even get answers for three unknowns if they can't see the ice. That's my issue.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I agree but that seems to be a pretty common off season for the CBJ. We always have a tone of depth guys locked up and usually (this is different) a few prospects we want to make room for. And as always we are hoping a handful of young guys step up from prior years performance. As usual we need a top line C and could use a playmaking winger. Then this year we are likely looking for a top 4 dman as well (we had that luxury last year of having enough and giving Murray away) to replace Jones.

To jump off from this, not to argue against it:

This is the kind of franchise the CBJ is. Draft, depth and the occasional key trade.

 

[majormajor]

This season was bad for Patrik but he`s a TOP player and don`t need support of players so I don`t see any reason to look special partner for him. What`s happen your roster I would make some change, for example Texier to Roslovic and Bjork, Foudy to Voronkov and Laine... (btw this couple... I can only agree with you).

Roslovic has very good chemistry with Bemstrom and IMHO Tex would be idela to this couple. I think Laine has very good chemistry with Foudy. And if still without Voronkov I would try Dunne to them. Josh is very good in defense, has quite good positional play. Maybe I`m mistaken but I have feeling they (he and PL) have good chemistry. Nyquist has good chemistry with Bjork and between them young Angle.

Texier--Roslovic--Bemstrom 22--24--22
Foudy--Dunne--Laine 21--23--23
Nyquist--Angle--Bjorkstrand 26--21--26
Robinson--Jenner--Atkinson 26--28--32

Btw if Eichel is so great he must make his partners better. If he needs partners he isn`t and we don`t need him for so big value (draft picks/players) especially with is neck. .

I was just doing a depth chart to show how deep the wings are (6-7 lines deep with NHL wings). Those weren't intended to be lines.

 

[VT]

I was just doing a depth chart to show how deep the wings are (6-7 lines deep with NHL wings). Those weren't intended to be lines.

Oops

 

[KJ Dangler]

Great, so I take it you wouldn't mind including three or four of our 14 potential wingers in an Eichel trade, right?

I'm hearing from some people that they'd much rather have Texier + Marchenko + #5OA than Jack Eichel, and I'm hearing from you that we shouldn't trade for Jack Eichel because those young pieces aren't going to be good enough to play helpful roles alongside Jack Eichel.

My guess is that if Eichel didn't have the uncertainty of his health lingering over his head, many around here would be more open to it. If he requires surgery, and the average shelf life is 3 yrs from the surgery before the nerve is shot. My guess is, this is why he's pushing for this new surgery, that's never done on an NHL player. Personally, If I knew Eichel would be the player he's been the last few years, and not damaged goods, I would be all for it. Problem is, that's not the case .

 

[majormajor]

My guess is that if Eichel didn't have the uncertainty of his health lingering over his head, many around here would be more open to it. If he requires surgery, and the average shelf life is 3 yrs from the surgery before the nerve is shot. My guess is, this is why he's pushing for this new surgery, that's never done on an NHL player. Personally, If I knew Eichel would be the player he's been the last few years, and not damaged goods, I would be all for it. Problem is, that's not the case .

I'll let the medical professionals make their call about that stuff. We wouldn't be the ones to ask!

 

[KJ Dangler]

I'll let the medical professionals make their call about that stuff. We wouldn't be the ones to ask!

I understand that, but on this message board you are pointing out other posters reluctance on Eichel.. so its definitely worth discussing . All we have to go on is that he wants to pursue this surgery that hasnt been completed on an NHL player. Why ? My guess is hes aware of the current surgery being effective for about 3 yrs.. Peyton Manning had this same injury

 

[ColumbusTrill]

Just curious but what were the ages of the guys who had the surgery? Looking at Peyton Manning, he was 34 or 35 when he had his first neck surgery and went on to have 3 others. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to compare him to eichel given that jack is 10 years younger and hasn’t had previous neck issues

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Just curious but what were the ages of the guys who had the surgery? Looking at Peyton Manning, he was 34 or 35 when he had his first neck surgery and went on to have 3 others. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to compare him to eichel given that jack is 10 years younger and hasn’t had previous neck issues

Yes. This was asked previously and not answered. The point was cited but my guess is the original citation did not include that information and no one seems inclined, myself included, to research the matter further. But that is a good question.

 

[cslebn]

Just curious but what were the ages of the guys who had the surgery? Looking at Peyton Manning, he was 34 or 35 when he had his first neck surgery and went on to have 3 others. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to compare him to eichel given that jack is 10 years younger and hasn’t had previous neck issues

I haven't seen it yet. Medical records and all it may not be easy.

Interesting reads:
https://orthosummit.com/wp-content/uploads/presentation/Renoir-2/12082017/1711_Goldberg_G.pdf

Jack Eichel’s Neck Surgery & Recovery

Return to Play After Anterior Cervical Discectomy and Fusion in Professional Athletes - PubMed

A Systematic Review of the Orthopedic Literature Involving National Hockey League Players

Outcomes after anterior cervical discectomy and fusion in professional athletes - PubMed

Return to Play in Elite Contact Athletes After Anterior Cervical Discectomy and Fusion: A Meta-Analysis - PubMed

 

[Columbus Jack]

Great, so I take it you wouldn't mind including three or four of our 14 potential wingers in an Eichel trade, right?

I'm hearing from some people that they'd much rather have Texier + Marchenko + #5OA than Jack Eichel, and I'm hearing from you that we shouldn't trade for Jack Eichel because those young pieces aren't going to be good enough to play helpful roles alongside Jack Eichel.

No we shouldn't trade for Jack Eichel because Jack Eichel isn't winning us a Cup, probably doesn't want to be traded here and stay long term and probably isn't healthy. I rather wait and see how these young pieces turn out before we do anything, I never said they wouldn't be good enough. They are unknowns as my post stated.

 

[majormajor]

I understand that, but on this message board you are pointing out other posters reluctance on Eichel.. so its definitely worth discussing . All we have to go on is that he wants to pursue this surgery that hasnt been completed on an NHL player. Why ? My guess is hes aware of the current surgery being effective for about 3 yrs.. Peyton Manning had this same injury

Sure, his health is an unavoidable topic to some extent. That's why I just give my "fully healthy" price for Jack Eichel and then say the price goes down from there depending on health. I'm not going to try and independently determine how healthy he'd be.

I don't buy this 3 year number either, which is obviously coming from the retirement dates of much older players, who presumably would be on the verge of retirement anyways.

 

[majormajor]

No we shouldn't trade for Jack Eichel because Jack Eichel isn't winning us a Cup, probably doesn't want to be traded here and stay long term and probably isn't healthy.

I don't think we know yet on the first one and don't know yet, at least not on these boards, about the third (the health). As for the second one, I'll go ahead and guess that he's the last person we'd need to worry about his attitude about staying in Columbus. Obviously the FO will have to put feelers out on it, but he seems like the ideal candidate to bring in - he's locked up long term and looking for redemption after a terrible situation for him.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Sure, his health is an unavoidable topic to some extent. That's why I just give my "fully healthy" price for Jack Eichel and then say the price goes down from there depending on health. I'm not going to try and independently determine how healthy he'd be.

I don't buy this 3 year number either, which is obviously coming from the retirement dates of much older players, who presumably would be on the verge of retirement anyways.

Really doesn’t have much to do with the age when your dealing with bone density between 25 or 33 yr old players . The surgery puts pressure on the vertebrates on top and below which are used to stabilize . If you read some of the links , nearly 25% that have surgery are unable to return to play. The ones that did , lasted between 1 and 3 yrs . This is why Eichel wants this new experimental surgery. Team wants him to avoid surgery , because they know where that goes

 

[Columbus Jack]

I don't think we know yet on the first one and don't know yet, at least not on these boards, about the third (the health). As for the second one, I'll go ahead and guess that he's the last person we'd need to worry about his attitude about staying in Columbus. Obviously the FO will have to put feelers out on it, but he seems like the ideal candidate to bring in - he's locked up long term and looking for redemption after a terrible situation for him.

I just have a hard time believing any young hockey player as talented as Eichel would gladly come to Columbus and embrace it LONG TERM. That's the key, anyone can come here and say great things but how many shitty seasons are you willing to endure before wanting out? There are cities and teams out there that players are happy doing that on and we are definitely not one of them. But for argument's sake, yes it is still very unknown on how that would play out. But I'm going to error on the side that he, just like many other stars, would not want to stay long term. Unless Jarmo builds a winner magically within 3 years, I say keep building and drafting talent.

 

[majormajor]

Really doesn’t have much to do with the age when your dealing with bone density between 25 or 33 yr old players . The surgery puts pressure on the vertebrates on top and below which are used to stabilize . If you read some of the links , nearly 25% that have surgery are unable to return to play. The ones that did , lasted between 1 and 3 yrs . This is why Eichel wants this new experimental surgery. Team wants him to avoid surgery , because they know where that goes

I'm not going to be forming my own opinion on Jack Eichel's health. We're not well placed to discuss it with any level of insight or accuracy. Jack's candidacy for the surgery depends on his neck in particular.

 

[majormajor]

I just have a hard time believing any young hockey player as talented as Eichel would gladly come to Columbus and embrace it LONG TERM. That's the key, anyone can come here and say great things but how many shitty seasons are you willing to endure before wanting out? There are cities and teams out there that players are happy doing that on and we are definitely not one of them. But for argument's sake, yes it is still very unknown on how that would play out. But I'm going to error on the side that he, just like many other stars, would not want to stay long term. Unless Jarmo builds a winner magically within 3 years, I say keep building and drafting talent.

If you think any chance of the Jackets being good in 3 years requires "magic", and that therefore you shouldn't add good players, then you'd probably be creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think Jack Eichel would welcome a trade to the Jackets and we'd have a strong opportunity of returning to winning form sometime within a few years span, no magic required. Obviously he might be unhappy if we just never ever make the playoffs, but that is a very poor excuse for not trying to be good and win.

 

[CBJWerenski8]