The Offseason Thread (Previously Retool vs Rebuild)

[koteka]

Let’s see where people stand. Some people may have a different choice depending on Seth Jones, so there is that option as well. Others might think trading Jones for a center is the key to a retool. Obviously there is so much we don’t know right now, so maybe we’ll do this again at the end of the summer. Make your argument below.

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[CBJx614]

I'm pretty firmly in the "we need two centers" camp. Someone to go up against teams top lines (defensive minded center) and someone who can create some offense. I don't necessarily think we need an Eichel type, however that would help tremendously. But I do want someone who is going to compete for that 1C spot. Create some competition between Roslovic, Domi(if he's tried at center w/a new coach) and whoever else is put down the middle.

 

[Kevo22363]

I think it hinges on Jones. He commits to signing an extension, it's a retool. The thing that gives me pause is some of the comments from JD about underpromising and over performing. That almost leads me to believe that not much is going to happen. I guess we don't have much choice but to hang on and see what happens.

 

[majormajor]

It might not hinge on Jones' decision. If you can send Jones+ for Eichel (involving a third team) and fill the RD with Hamilton or even a fill-in like Schmidt or Larsson then I'd say we're better off. Add Danault and then I like the team a lot, we could be back in the playoff mix with a chance to build towards contender status. If you can't get upgrades like that though, then don't bother, just blow it up. The Metro is going to be a bloodbath.

 

[barriers]

Retool regardless of what Jones decides but it'll take more than one centre added.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Rebuild.

The talent level is such that high level competitiveness cannot occur with a few tweaks here and there.

Seth Jones appears to be in decline to me. He doesn't come off as a leader to me either. Unless I misread his end-of-year statements and body language badly, he's not committed to being here. A big money 8 year deal would be an impediment to overall long term competitiveness for the CBJ. Trade him while he's got the most value-which is now or a sign and trade. Let someone else have the new Doughty/Karlsson/Subban albatross deal for him.

My wishes notwithstanding, it will almost assuredly be a retool not a rebuild. When ownership brought back Davidson and re upped the GM through 24-25, they chose retool. The architects of the current debacle aren't going to fess up to their folly and admit defeat and blow it up. They almost have to play the "retool" game to save face.

As the Great Leader JD said, "we're going to have to put on our hard hats and show up to work each day". There's going to be a brickload of pain for this franchise for quite some time. One brick at a time.

 

[MAHJ71]

Rebuild.

The talent level is such that high level competitiveness cannot occur with a few tweaks here and there.

Seth Jones appears to be in decline to me. He doesn't come off as a leader to me either. Unless I misread his end-of-year statements and body language badly, he's not committed to being here. A big money 8 year deal would be an impediment to overall long term competitiveness for the CBJ. Trade him while he's got the most value-which is now or a sign and trade. Let someone else have the new Doughty/Karlsson/Subban albatross deal for him.

My wishes notwithstanding, it will almost assuredly be a retool not a rebuild. When ownership brought back Davidson and re upped the GM through 24-25, they chose retool. The architects of the current debacle aren't going to fess up to their folly and admit defeat and blow it up. They almost have to play the "retool" game to save face.

As the Great Leader JD said, "we're going to have to put on our hard hats and show up to work each day". There's going to be a brickload of pain for this franchise for quite some time. One brick at a time.

 

[VT]

It might not hinge on Jones' decision. If you can send Jones+ for Eichel (involving a third team) and fill the RD with Hamilton or even a fill-in like Schmidt or Larsson then I'd say we're better off. Add Danault and then I like the team a lot, we could be back in the playoff mix with a chance to build towards contender status. If you can't get upgrades like that though, then don't bother, just blow it up. The Metro is going to be a bloodbath.

Eichel for UFA after the next season Jones.
I don`t think we need Danault but it isn`t so important.
--------------------
It`s hard. This season was enough specific and we don`t know how some, especially young players could play in normal. So if we would trade them we could lose.
So IMHO we should wait and not make big trades before/at the beginning of the season.
Trades/signs of players are not a computer game, mistakes can`t be so easily corrected in the most of cases.

 

[EspenK]

With 2 upcoming (22 &23) draft classes considered exceptional this is a great time to be entering a rebuild. Add in the fact that the Jackets identity of "tough to play against" is yesterday's news with the departures of Foligno, Anderson, Dubi, PLD, Savard, Calvert & Torts. The remaining guys don't have an identity unless its we're easy to play against. It is a mismash of talents that aren't star quality and that doesn't go together.

With Jones & Werenski questionable as to their long term commitment, Laine, who may turn out to be a star or more likely an anchor, Domi who appears to not be a C, Nyqvist being signed for only one more year and a bunch of Jarmo wunderkinds who have yet to be full time contributors, the question as to whether or not to rebuild is not debatable, or at least should not be. Trade as many of today's roster as possible, stock up on draft choices and suck for the next couple of years, much like what will probably happen in a retooling anyway, just worse. With a bunch of new young talent on board the
future will look much brighter than continuing on another 20 year search for success with the current collection of players.

Blow it up & rebuild.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I voted retool. No doubt I’m in a minority, but whether Jones re-signs or not isn’t a factor. Jones, while excellent, isn’t Conner McDavid or Panarin whose departures might influence those franchises. (Jones needs to be traded if he’s not coming back).

It’s possible my opinion might change in a year or two, but I want to see how the team (with some additions) will perform under new coach with a fresh outlook.

One other factor comes into play. I’m not convinced our broader fan base - especially coming off the COVID downtime - will handle a rebuild. Is our franchise strong enough to endure several years of uncompetitiveness.

 

[koteka]

I think now is the time to blow it up.

The next few drafts look really, really good. Attendance is going to be weird next year anyway. The Metro is absolutely stacked but in a couple of years teams will start collapsing and we could be ready to pounce. A retool would probably fail anyway and set us back further. It just looks to me like 2o21 is a really good time to start a rebuild.

Major pieces that can survive a rebuild
Werenski 23 years old
Laine 23 years old
Bjork 26 years old, signed for 5 more years
Gavrikov 25 years old

Worst contract
Cam Atkinson 4 years left at $5.9 million, still productive

Players that might grow if we let them
Roslovic
Foudy
Tex
Bemstrom
Peeke
Russians who will start coming over (2 already have)

Future high draft picks
2021 - 3 firsts
2022 - first, second
2023 - first, second
Whatever we get in trades (Boone, Nyquist, etc)

Our left D is set and we have lots of middle 6 forward talent. We need a top right D if Jones go, and that is not easy to find. We also need right D depth. We need a real 1c and a stud top line wing.

I think the surest path to build a real top line and second line is add talent in the draft and grow it. I’d rather have players with smaller contracts under team control than overpay for a 28 year old or a 34 year old that is really a 2c that we are playing on the top line.

The choice to rebuild is pretty clear to me.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

With 2 upcoming (22 &23) draft classes considered exceptional this is a great time to be entering a rebuild. Add in the fact that the Jackets identity of "tough to play against" is yesterday's news with the departures of Foligno, Anderson, Dubi, PLD, Savard, Calvert & Torts. The remaining guys don't have an identity unless its we're easy to play against. It is a mismash of talents that aren't star quality and that doesn't go together.

With Jones & Werenski questionable as to their long term commitment, Laine, who may turn out to be a star or more likely an anchor, Domi who appears to not be a C, Nyqvist being signed for only one more year and a bunch of Jarmo wunderkinds who have yet to be full time contributors, the question as to whether or not to rebuild is not debatable, or at least should not be. Trade as many of today's roster as possible, stock up on draft choices and suck for the next couple of years, much like what will probably happen in a retooling anyway, just worse. With a bunch of new young talent on board the
future will look much brighter than continuing on another 20 year search for success with the current collection of players.

Blow it up & rebuild.

“Our team stinks. Let’s trade everyone and reap the rewards!”
“What are the rewards for stinky players?”
“Draft picks that will make our team better!”
“But you said our GM’s current drafted players were among the stinky players.”
“Rebuild!”

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I voted retool. No doubt I’m in a minority, but whether Jones re-signs or not isn’t a factor. Jones, while excellent, isn’t Conner McDavid or Panarin whose departures might influence those franchises. (Jones needs to be traded if he’s not coming back).

It’s possible my opinion might change in a year or two, but I want to see how the team (with some additions) will perform under new coach with a fresh outlook.

One other factor comes into play. I’m not convinced our broader fan base - especially coming off the COVID downtime - will handle a rebuild. Is our franchise strong enough to endure several years of uncompetitiveness.

I do think that this is a very relevant point.

A total rebuild does subject the franchise to the risk of losing part of the fan base. The question would be is how much of the base?

The optimal business answer to what should be done may very much differ from what I think the best long term competitive course should be.

 

[koteka]

The optimal business answer to what should be done may very much differ from what I think the best long term competitive course should be.

This is key. I wonder what the the CBJ’s internal projections for ticket sales are.

Next year’s fan base:

Hard core fans
Casual fans that are ready to go to games
Non fans that just want to got out and do things - hey let’s watch hockey

Next year’s lost fans:

Not ready to return after COVID
Pissed off because of rebuild

I think not-ready-to-return-because-of-COVID is a much bigger factor than people-mad-because-of-a-rebuild. And the hate-the-rebuild fans will also hate an unsuccessful retool and react the same way by the end of the season.

I think COVID gives a team cover for a rebuild, but I’d love to see what the NHL is projecting.

I go to the occasional game. I have kids and my life is busy and I already live at ice rinks. (I was at a rink this morning.) We probably go to 2 games / season as a family and maybe I go to 4 more where it is me and a kid or a friend. (Plus I’ll go to playoff games if we make the playoffs.) My wife and I have decided to pass on indoor activities like the CBJ or OSU basketball or cirque de soleil or whatever comes to town. I know plenty of people who feel the same way. Maybe we’ll start back up in spring of 2022.

 

[MAHJ71]

This team and fan base has made it through darker times... I'm not worried about the fan base with a rebuild.

 

[MAHJ71]

It might not hinge on Jones' decision. If you can send Jones+ for Eichel (involving a third team) and fill the RD with Hamilton or even a fill-in like Schmidt or Larsson then I'd say we're better off. Add Danault and then I like the team a lot, we could be back in the playoff mix with a chance to build towards contender status. If you can't get upgrades like that though, then don't bother, just blow it up. The Metro is going to be a bloodbath.

Fair point. It's assuming Jones being traded brings back roster upgrades and not young undeveloped talent.

 

[majormajor]

Fair point. It's assuming Jones being traded brings back roster upgrades and not young undeveloped talent.

Right. Jones would for the most part return offers of young undeveloped talent, but guess what? Young undeveloped talent is pretty much what Buffalo wants for Eichel. This is a natural three-way trade.

 

[MAHJ71]

Right. Jones would for the most part return offers of young undeveloped talent, but guess what? Young undeveloped talent is pretty much what Buffalo wants for Eichel. This is a natural three-way trade.

We certainly have some of that to share with others

 

[EspenK]

“Our team stinks. Let’s trade everyone and reap the rewards!”
“What are the rewards for stinky players?”
“Draft picks that will make our team better!”
“But you said our GM’s current drafted players were among the stinky players.”
“Rebuild!”

Still grumpy?

 

[CharlotteJacket]

It seems some of us want to employ the brilliant strategy of the 1970's Cleveland Indians. Get a player who can do something and trade him for "sure fire" prospects and draft picks. You old timers probably remember Chris Chambliss and Dennis Eckersley and the bounty of losers the Tribe ended up with.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

With the news coming out tonight, you blow this thing to high heavens.

Nobody is untouchable. The closest one being Oliver Bjorkstrand due to his contract. You try to hold onto the younger guys (Texier, Bemstrom, one of the goalies, etc) but again nobody is off the table.

I think you try to get Atkinson out of here immediately even if it means eating a bad contract. It’s going to be bad here for a while. Might as well give him the opportunity to play and win elsewhere

 

[majormajor]

With the news coming out tonight, you blow this thing to high heavens.

Nobody is untouchable. The closest one being Oliver Bjorkstrand due to his contract. You try to hold onto the younger guys (Texier, Bemstrom, one of the goalies, etc) but again nobody is off the table.

I think you try to get Atkinson out of here immediately even if it means eating a bad contract. It’s going to be bad here for a while. Might as well give him the opportunity to play and win elsewhere

That or, you know, trade Jones+ for somebody better than him.

 

[Byrral]

I think you try to get Atkinson out of here immediately even if it means eating a bad contract. It’s going to be bad here for a while. Might as well give him the opportunity to play and win elsewhere

Leave it up to Cam. He's one of the guys that supports the city and I think he wants to be here.

Edit: Also, you can and will keep guys that can still fit during a rebuild. That includes guys like Texier, Bemstrom and Bjorkstrand.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

That or, you know, trade Jones+ for somebody better than him.

good luck with that.

 

[majormajor]

good luck with that.

If only there was somebody better than Seth on the trade market... and their team could mostly only accept futures for that player... This ain't rocket science.