The Official Training Camp Thread (Warning, Post #310)

[fancouver]

Toughness makes the game more enjoyable. To have a team that is bad AND is butter soft makes me change the channel a lot easier.

Exactly. Our team is already not a contender and has it tough to make the playoffs. If we don't have some hits and fights here and there, it's going to be a long (and boring) season.

 

[Verviticus]

its gonna be a long and boring season no matter how tough the team is, though

 

[kanucks25]

Thoughts on a few things that have been talked about over the last few pages:

1. Why do people still think that you can't be "team tough" unless you have a few fighters/goons in the lineup? I rather be a team like Chicago. You know, the kind that doesn't fight and still wins cups.

2. Why is Hutton getting "at least 1 more game"? Unless he totally craps the bed in the last preseason games he should already be a lock for a top-6 spot. Ridiculous, unless they're just saying that so he doesn't get comfortable (which I doubt).

3. Bartkowski has played well on his off-side. He should be our 3rd RD, not Sbisa (if we're just going by performance).

4. Another year with Edler on the PP even though he can't shoot or pass. Weber was significantly better than him last year in that role and he again gets relegated. Infuriating...

 

[fancouver]

its gonna be a long and boring season no matter how tough the team is, though

There is certainly entertainment value in heavy hits and winning fights. The crowd goes crazy when they see this even in a game their team is losing.

Maybe you don't find it entertaining, but certainly a lot of fans do. They don't just cheer for no reason when hits occur.

 

[Jay Cee]

Thoughts on a few things that have been talked about over the last few pages:

1. Why do people still think that you can't be "team tough" unless you have a few fighters/goons in the lineup? I rather be a team like Chicago. You know, the kind that doesn't fight and still wins cups.

2. Why is Hutton getting "at least 1 more game"? Unless he totally craps the bed in the last preseason games he should already be a lock for a top-6 spot. Ridiculous, unless they're just saying that so he doesn't get comfortable (which I doubt).

3. Bartkowski has played well on his off-side. He should be our 3rd RD, not Sbisa (if we're just going by performance).

4. Another year with Edler on the PP even though he can't shoot or pass. Weber was significantly better than him last year in that role and he again gets relegated. Infuriating...

I think the best team has goons, fighters, predatory hitters, good forecheckers etc.

It is really the whole spectrum.

 

[Jay Cee]

its gonna be a long and boring season no matter how tough the team is, though

It's not just about my overall feeling on how a team should be tough that is the real problem. It is embarrassing just getting pushed around and doing nothing about it AND getting the score run up.

I know we don't see eye to eye maybe on this so agree to disagree...

 

[vanuck]

I think the best team has goons, fighters, predatory hitters, good forecheckers etc.

It is really the whole spectrum.

Examples of such a team? It seems to me that this sort of team would be more in line with what you'd see before the lockout.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Examples of such a team? It seems to me that this sort of team would be more in line with what you'd see before the lockout.

Chicago going into their first cup was very much like this. Could burn you with the skill game AND punish you physically. Ladd, Byfuglien and Eager all took regular shifts, and Burrish and Bolland were dirty as they came. They physically dominated Vancouver in both the series the two teams played.

Boston was also a very physically "heavy" team, although they weren't as nasty as Chicago. Same could be said of LA.

In fact, given the teams the Canucks have lost to in the playoffs over the last half decade and change, it's not terribly surprising team management has such a hard-on for getting "tougher".

Personally I don't think you need or want goons prowling around on your fourth line, playing four minutes a game, but having a team that doesn't get run out of the rink physically every night is probably advisable. It's not a good environment to grow your young talent in if they're getting blown up with impunity.

 

[Verviticus]

It's not just about my overall feeling on how a team should be tough that is the real problem. It is embarrassing just getting pushed around and doing nothing about it AND getting the score run up.

I know we don't see eye to eye maybe on this so agree to disagree...

i mean youve made it clear its your personal opinion, im not gonna tell you that you're wrong. but ya, i feel toughness in the absence of ability is worse than not having it

 

[Jack Tripper]

Personally I don't think you need or want goons prowling around on your fourth line, playing four minutes a game, but having a team that doesn't get run out of the rink physically every night is probably advisable. It's not a good environment to grow your young talent in if they're getting blown up with impunity.

absolutely, which makes it all the more bizarre that the canucks shipped out a guy that can add legitimate toughness in the top 6 for an aging smurf goon who will get exposed if he plays more than 10 minutes a night

outside of the fighting numbers of dorsett and prust, this canucks team may be the softest in the history of the franchise

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Chicago going into their first cup was very much like this. Could burn you with the skill game AND punish you physically. Ladd, Byfuglien and Eager all took regular shifts, and Burrish and Bolland were dirty as they came. They physically dominated Vancouver in both the series the two teams played.

Boston was also a very physically "heavy" team, although they weren't as nasty as Chicago. Same could be said of LA.

In fact, given the teams the Canucks have lost to in the playoffs over the last half decade and change, it's not terribly surprising team management has such a hard-on for getting "tougher".

Personally I don't think you need or want goons prowling around on your fourth line, playing four minutes a game, but having a team that doesn't get run out of the rink physically every night is probably advisable. It's not a good environment to grow your young talent in if they're getting blown up with impunity.

I want to see Dorsett and Prust on different lines. Plugging vey or McCann between them is a) a waste of the either Cs talent and b) doesn't help the whole roster get "tougher".

The "bottom 6" should have two skilled players and one of Dorsett/Prust.

My lineup looks like this
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Baertschi-Horvat-Vrbata
Virtanen-Sutter-Dorsett
Prust-McCann-Hansen

3/4 lines have a youth injection. Each line has a player who can handle playing in the dirty areas. Each lines has some semblance of skill on it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

absolutely, which makes it all the more bizarre that the canucks shipped out a guy that can add legitimate toughness in the top 6 for an aging smurf goon who will get exposed if he plays more than 10 minutes a night

outside of the fighting numbers of dorsett and prust, this canucks team may be the softest in the history of the franchise

I don't think there's anyone who can make sense of that trade, outside of Kassian being the hockey incarnation of Nick Cage in Leaving Las Vegas, and even then it's a stretch. It's not often you can pull a trade in which you become older, smaller, less talented and more expensive.

I want to see Dorsett and Prust on different lines. Plugging vey or McCann between them is a) a waste of the either Cs talent and b) doesn't help the whole roster get "tougher".

The "bottom 6" should have two skilled players and one of Dorsett/Prust.

My lineup looks like this
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Baertschi-Horvat-Vrbata
Virtanen-Sutter-Dorsett
Prust-McCann-Hansen

3/4 lines have a youth injection. Each line has a player who can handle playing in the dirty areas. Each lines has some semblance of skill on it.

I don't mind the "Smurf between two Paperweights" line concept, but I might be biased of memories of Ronning between Sandlak and Momesso. I'd prefer Kenins over Prust in the lineup in either case, but the guy is going to get his minutes. I don't even hate Prust or players who fill his role, I just feel like we already *had* a Prust in Dorsett. Too many Prusts.

 

[Street Hawk]

Season

It will be a boring season if the Canucks start the season with Virtanen and McCann in the lineup and ultimately after they play 9 games, the management team deems them not ready to play full time and returns them to Junior.

Cause, then there is really nothing to be hopeful for.

My best hopes for the season are the following:

Goaltending: Miller/Markstrom - expect a 2 to 1 split in games. 55 for Miller and 27 for Markstrom. Want to see Markstrom play at least as well as Lack has for the team in the past 2 seasons. Important to see that Markstrom can at least bridge the team until Demko is ready or become a future #1 and fulfill his promise that he displayed as a prospect.

Miller is Miller at this point. 36 year old vet goalie. Best days are behind him. Just needs to be steady and help Markstrom develop

Defense:
Edler - play steady. Fewer ups and downs
Tanev - same as we have seen. Stop getting plastered
Hamhuis - traded at the deadline
Scisba - play much better than he did last season
Weber - contribute on the PP and not be terrible defensively
Bartkowski - be a serviceable 3rd pairing/spare Dman
Corrado - show the poise he did when he was called up very early in his career. Be a dependable 3rd pairing right side Dman
Hutton - likely starts in the AHL, but expect him to be the first call up when Dmen go down during the season. Needs to add some bulk to play at the NHL regularly

Offense:
Hank - same old - close to PPG production
Dan - same old - close to PPG production
Vrbata - traded at the deadline
Burrows - plays solidly this season. If offer comes in for a trade, make the move and deal Burrows
Hansen - same solid 3rd line checker and grinder he has always been
Higgins - if lucky, be a solid decent 3rd line winger and doesn't see any PP time. Hopefully those minutes go to McCann and Virtanen. If option to trade him comes near the deadline and by picking up part of his contract next season, make the move
Sutter - hope he delivers on the faith that management has in him. Need to see him produce 25 goals and 50 points and be a solid 2 way guy
Prust - bring the physical presence and kill penalties. Step in for the youngsters like Virtanen and McCann when it gets rough. Traded at the deadline.
Dorsett - see Prust. Except he won't get traded
Baertschi - play like the offensive 1st/2nd the Canucks hoped for. Pot in at least 20 goals this season.
Vey - will he deliver on the faith of Benning/Desjardins? Or do we see that it wasn't just a numbers game that kept him out of the Kings lineup. Given the opportunity to play regularly but hasn't seized it.
Virtanen - play physical and chip in offensively. Don't get too focussed on playing like Ferland, play his game. If he can pot a goal total in the teens and around 30 points, I would be satisfied
McCann - generate some offence and play solid defence. Point total, depending on who he plays with, I would hope for similar numbers like Jake, teen goal total and 30 points.
Horvat - build upon last year's solid season. Increase goal total to 20 and point total into the 40 point range.

Outside -
Kenins - not sure on his waiver situation. Likely has to start the season on the farm
Gaunce - numbers game for him. Injuries happen and likely to see him called up at some point
Grenier - likely to see him as a call up at some point too.

My main hope is that Benning doesn't lose sight of the long term goal of winning a cup. They can't win one in the very near future and can't pass up dealing Vrbata/Hamhuis/Prust for a playoff berth this season. Don't have enough young talent if they only have their own draft picks. Need to get a few more young players. Limited Defensive depth and high end offensive players.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

absolutely, which makes it all the more bizarre that the canucks shipped out a guy that can add legitimate toughness in the top 6 for an aging smurf goon who will get exposed if he plays more than 10 minutes a night

outside of the fighting numbers of dorsett and prust, this canucks team may be the softest in the history of the franchise

yeah. if thats the one single thing you are considering.

 

[NuxFan09]

It will be a boring season if the Canucks start the season with Virtanen and McCann in the lineup and ultimately after they play 9 games, the management team deems them not ready to play full time and returns them to Junior.

Cause, then there is really nothing to be hopeful for.

My best hopes for the season are the following:

Goaltending: Miller/Markstrom - expect a 2 to 1 split in games. 55 for Miller and 27 for Markstrom. Want to see Markstrom play at least as well as Lack has for the team in the past 2 seasons. Important to see that Markstrom can at least bridge the team until Demko is ready or become a future #1 and fulfill his promise that he displayed as a prospect.

Miller is Miller at this point. 36 year old vet goalie. Best days are behind him. Just needs to be steady and help Markstrom develop

Defense:
Edler - play steady. Fewer ups and downs
Tanev - same as we have seen. Stop getting plastered
Hamhuis - traded at the deadline
Scisba - play much better than he did last season
Weber - contribute on the PP and not be terrible defensively
Bartkowski - be a serviceable 3rd pairing/spare Dman
Corrado - show the poise he did when he was called up very early in his career. Be a dependable 3rd pairing right side Dman
Hutton - likely starts in the AHL, but expect him to be the first call up when Dmen go down during the season. Needs to add some bulk to play at the NHL regularly

Offense:
Hank - same old - close to PPG production
Dan - same old - close to PPG production
Vrbata - traded at the deadline
Burrows - plays solidly this season. If offer comes in for a trade, make the move and deal Burrows
Hansen - same solid 3rd line checker and grinder he has always been
Higgins - if lucky, be a solid decent 3rd line winger and doesn't see any PP time. Hopefully those minutes go to McCann and Virtanen. If option to trade him comes near the deadline and by picking up part of his contract next season, make the move
Sutter - hope he delivers on the faith that management has in him. Need to see him produce 25 goals and 50 points and be a solid 2 way guy
Prust - bring the physical presence and kill penalties. Step in for the youngsters like Virtanen and McCann when it gets rough. Traded at the deadline.
Dorsett - see Prust. Except he won't get traded
Baertschi - play like the offensive 1st/2nd the Canucks hoped for. Pot in at least 20 goals this season.
Vey - will he deliver on the faith of Benning/Desjardins? Or do we see that it wasn't just a numbers game that kept him out of the Kings lineup. Given the opportunity to play regularly but hasn't seized it.
Virtanen - play physical and chip in offensively. Don't get too focussed on playing like Ferland, play his game. If he can pot a goal total in the teens and around 30 points, I would be satisfied
McCann - generate some offence and play solid defence. Point total, depending on who he plays with, I would hope for similar numbers like Jake, teen goal total and 30 points.
Horvat - build upon last year's solid season. Increase goal total to 20 and point total into the 40 point range.

Outside -
Kenins - not sure on his waiver situation. Likely has to start the season on the farm
Gaunce - numbers game for him. Injuries happen and likely to see him called up at some point
Grenier - likely to see him as a call up at some point too.

My main hope is that Benning doesn't lose sight of the long term goal of winning a cup. They can't win one in the very near future and can't pass up dealing Vrbata/Hamhuis/Prust for a playoff berth this season. Don't have enough young talent if they only have their own draft picks. Need to get a few more young players. Limited Defensive depth and high end offensive players.

Haha...ha...not gonna happen.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I don't think there's anyone who can make sense of that trade, outside of Kassian being the hockey incarnation of Nick Cage in Leaving Las Vegas, and even then it's a stretch. It's not often you can pull a trade in which you become older, smaller, less talented and more expensive.



I don't mind the "Smurf between two Paperweights" line concept, but I might be biased of memories of Ronning between Sandlak and Momesso. I'd prefer Kenins over Prust in the lineup in either case, but the guy is going to get his minutes. I don't even hate Prust or players who fill his role, I just feel like we already *had* a Prust in Dorsett. Too many Prusts.

When Kenins is on his game I agree, but he's struggled to be consistent with the style of play that will keep him in the league and successful.

I also don't think the "Smurf between two Paperweights" line concept works in today's NHL. Split up the Paperweights and give the skilled center more to work with and you'll be more successful.

 

[me2]

Examples of such a team? It seems to me that this sort of team would be more in line with what you'd see before the lockout.

1997-98 canucks?

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Personally I don't think you need or want goons prowling around on your fourth line, playing four minutes a game, but having a team that doesn't get run out of the rink physically every night is probably advisable. It's not a good environment to grow your young talent in if they're getting blown up with impunity.

Dorsett and Prust aren't goons who can only play 4 minutes a night. They can play a regular shift as bottom 6 players.

Are they redundant? Debatable, and the side winning the debate right now is that they are.

Right now I'd say that the only player Dorsett/Prust may be "blocking" is Kenins but he's also not helping himself with straying away from the physical side of the game that made him so successful when he was called up last season.

 

[KeninsFan]

Dorsett and Prust aren't goons who can only play 4 minutes a night. They can play a regular shift as bottom 6 players.

Are they redundant? Debatable, and the side winning the debate right now is that they are.

Right now I'd say that the only player Dorsett/Prust may be "blocking" is Kenins but he's also not helping himself with straying away from the physical side of the game that made him so successful when he was called up last season.

Based on this preseason Prust cannot play a regular shift. Pretty much any "good" 4th line is gonna skate circles around him.

 

[KINGFILL]

Sedin Sedin Vrbata
McCann Horvat Burrows
Virtanen Sutter Hansen
Prust Gaunce Dorsett

Vey/Baerstchi/Kenins fight for extra 2 spots

 

[GetFocht]

Based on this preseason Prust cannot play a regular shift. Pretty much any "good" 4th line is gonna skate circles around him.

Based on the preseason, neither is Sedins or Crosby. Prust is a veteran that amassed almost 500 games in the NHL. there is no surprise for him and at this stage, he doesn't have to prove himself in the pre-season.

 

[KeninsFan]

Based on the preseason, neither is Sedins or Crosby. Prust is a veteran that amassed almost 500 games in the NHL. there is no surprise for him and at this stage, he doesn't have to prove himself in the pre-season.

Yes but he underwent a heavy decline during his tenure in MTL.

What we saw in the pre-season is a continuation of his play during his last season with the Habs. He's a vet who's injuries have taken a toll on him.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Yes but he underwent a heavy decline during his tenure in MTL.

What we saw in the pre-season is a continuation of his play during his last season with the Habs. He's a vet who's injuries have taken a toll on him.

I think you'll see Prust, Kenins, Dorsett all take turns sitting and resting. It takes a toll on your body to play as physical as these guys need to be successful and having players who can step in and play that role and let them rest is a nice luxury to have. Add in potentially Virtanen and you have a real good rotation of players who can be physical difference makers.

 

[VanJack]

I think you'll see Prust, Kenins, Dorsett all take turns sitting and resting. It takes a toll on your body to play as physical as these guys need to be successful and having players who can step in and play that role and let them rest is a nice luxury to have. Add in potentially Virtanen and you have a real good rotation of players who can be physical difference makers.

Can anyone explain to me what the game-plan is with Prust?.....guy is over 30 and on an expiring contract....there's not a chance in the world the Canucks re-sign him, so he's a UFA if he's not dealt near the trade deadline.....wouldn't Gaunce or Virtanen be a better option, not only in the present but for the future?

 

[VanillaCoke]

I bet JB wants to resign prust.
But he doesnt want to be on the west so deadline deal or he walks.