The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[Burrowsaurus]

Maybe if the General Manager poked his head out of his hole every once in a while to help sell hope to the fleeting fanbase...



Since everyone who works for the organization is hiding from the outside world, the wives would definitely provide more insight, especially since there seems to be quite a bit of news coming from and about the players wives on this team.

I wasn’t Bryan Murray’s biggest fan. But every good quality he had, wasnot picked up by Pierre Dorion.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Again. Why do you always assume people in positions of authority are telling the truth?especially when there’s a bunch of stuff that says otherwise.

I don't believe EM knows anything about evaluating prospects or players, and is smart enough to let the people he hired to do the evaluating, scouting, working out trades and negotiating contracts, to do their jobs.

Yes he sets out a framework and budget, but doubt very much that he has ever overruled a GM on a matter of hockey operations.

I don't assume that PD is lying, how could he be? Why in the world would he accept a position as GM in name only?

As for the bunch of stuff that says that EM is the actual GM of the Senators, I either have never seen it, or missed it.

 

[BatherSeason]

So if this were true, is the media missing the boat?

Yes, the media has been missing the boat here for YEARS! The team has way too much control over the local media.

 

[topshelf15]

I wasn’t Bryan Murray’s biggest fan. But every good quality he had, wasnot picked up by Pierre Dorion.

He wasnt a GM here ,he was a babysitter

 

[Ray Kinsella]

So if this were true, is the media missing the boat?

Is it?

 

[Xspyrit]

I did, and it really doesn't change anything with my conclusion. Seems extremely simple to me, the above looks like someone trying to see something he wants.

Having both Brassard and what we got in return for trading away Brassard in the "In" column doesn't make much sense. The bolded guys in the "IN" column are not even with the team anymore, with the state of the team now it's clear keeping most of those trades from being made was he better option.

Looking at what we traded away, and what we currently have to show for it right now is all that matters moving forward.

Pitts 2018 22nd overall in the OUT column, that was traded away to get the 26th + 48th. We never got those picks from Pittsburgh

Then we have Hoffman out, 2020 5th is out, Bergman is in, Boedker is in, 2020 6th is in.

ok let's try this. Let's go step by step and remove all the equivalent parts. Also put the Duchene trade on hold for now.

In vs Out

11th vs 12th
36th vs 33rd
47th vs 42nd
48th vs 42nd
194th vs 193rd
3rd in 2019 vs 90th (assuming Pittsburgh pick will be a late 3rd)
7th in 2019 vs 214th (assuming Calgary pick will be a late 7th)
3rd in 2020 vs 73rd (assuming Columbus pick will be a mid 3rd)
Condon vs 152th (assuming value was similar as Condon was traded for a 5th)
Wingels vs Shore (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 7th)
Stalberg vs Prince (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 3rd)
Burrows vs Lazar (assuming value should have been similar, Burrows was not worth a 2nd (Dahlen) like Lazar shouldn't have returned a 2nd)

===============================================

This is what is left (outside of the Duchene trade) :

IN : Gustvasson, late 1st (26th (JBD)), Brassard (2 years rental), Phaneuf (2 years rental)

OUT : Zibanejad, late 2nd (59th OA), early 3rd (64th OA)

I love Zibanejad but I think the Sens did pretty good there... of course, it really depends on Gustvasson and Bernard-Docker. Brassard and Phaneuf finally didn't bring medium term impact like expected but they were key players for that great 2016-17 season and playoffs.

===============================================

Even if you think that the above "trade-off" is pretty equal, like I said, it all comes down to the Duchene trade.

IN : Duchene

OUT : Turris, 1st in 2019, 3rd in 2019, late 1st in 2017 (28th OA)

Now the question is where does those 2019 picks end up? And that's where Dorion put the team in a really risky situation as he assumed they would continue to draft late based on 2016-17 success; but his inexperience didn't tell him that things change very quickly in the NHL.

===============================================

Anyway, maybe it's not as simple as you figured. Doesn't seem like you did the proper equations. I guess now you won't be able to say "looks like someone trying to see something he wants" as it can't be more objective than that (can you really disagree with my "equivalents"?)

It actually looks like people saying "we've been giving up picks like candy" are the ones who are in fact trying to see what they want, when the reality as demonstrated shows the opposite. Like I said, where we bled assets is in the Duchene trade, but he is also a high end player so of course the price was going to be high.

NOTE 1 : about saying that having Brassard and his return in the "In" column is non sense... you might want to re-think this one BECAUSE the assets we got in return are tangible and the (almost) 2 years he spent on the team are ALSO TANGIBLE. It happened in the reality. See it as a rental if you wish. There's a reason teams spend assets to get rentals or short term players, they end up playing games for your team and may I remind you that picks are not guaranteed to play games for your team... Teams give odds of developing a NHL player for an actual NHL player that will play games for your team NOW, guaranteed.

NOTE 2 : The Hoffman trade was not included in the original equation (no 2016-2019 picks involved) and of course we lost the trade assets wise, but there is also a gigantic * next to the context of this trade, and everybody knows it.

 

[BondraTime]

ok let's try this. Let's go step by step and remove all the equivalent parts. Also put the Duchene trade on hold for now.

In vs Out

11th vs 12th
36th vs 33rd
47th vs 42nd
48th vs 42nd
194th vs 193rd
3rd in 2019 vs 90th (assuming Pittsburgh pick will be a late 3rd)
7th in 2019 vs 214th (assuming Calgary pick will be a late 7th)
3rd in 2020 vs 73rd (assuming Columbus pick will be a mid 3rd)
Condon vs 152th (assuming value was similar as Condon was traded for a 5th)
Wingels vs Shore (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 7th)
Stalberg vs Prince (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 3rd)
Burrows vs Lazar (assuming value should have been similar, Burrows was not worth a 2nd (Dahlen) like Lazar shouldn't have returned a 2nd)

===============================================

This is what is left (outside of the Duchene trade) :

IN : Gustvasson, late 1st (26th (JBD)), Brassard (2 years rental), Phaneuf (2 years rental)

OUT : Zibanejad, late 2nd (59th OA), early 3rd (64th OA)

I love Zibanejad but I think the Sens did pretty good there... of course, it really depends on Gustvasson and Bernard-Docker. Brassard and Phaneuf finally didn't bring medium term impact like expected but they were key players for that great 2016-17 season and playoffs.

===============================================

Even if you think that the above "trade-off" is pretty equal, like I said, it all comes down to the Duchene trade.

IN : Duchene

OUT : Turris, 1st in 2019, 3rd in 2019, late 1st in 2017 (28th OA)

Now the question is where does those 2019 picks end up? And that's where Dorion put the team in a really risky situation as he assumed they would continue to draft late based on 2016-17 success; but his inexperience didn't tell him that things change very quickly in the NHL.

===============================================

Anyway, maybe it's not as simple as you figured. Doesn't seem like you did the proper equations. I guess now you won't be able to say "looks like someone trying to see something he wants" as it can't be more objective than that (can you really disagree with my "equivalents"?)

It actually looks like people saying "we've been giving up picks like candy" are the ones who are in fact trying to see what they want, when the reality as demonstrated shows the opposite. Like I said, where we bled assets is in the Duchene trade, but he is also a high end player so of course the price was going to be high.

NOTE 1 : about saying that having Brassard and his return in the "In" column is non sense... you might want to re-think this one BECAUSE the assets we got in return are tangible and the (almost) 2 years he spent on the team are ALSO TANGIBLE. It happened in the reality. See it as a rental if you wish. There's a reason teams spend assets to get rentals or short term players, they end up playing games for your team and may I remind you that picks are not guaranteed to play games for your team... Teams give odds of developing a NHL player for an actual NHL player that will play games for your team NOW, guaranteed.

NOTE 2 : The Hoffman trade was not included in the original equation (no 2016-2019 picks involved) and of course we lost the trade assets wise, but there is also a gigantic * next to the context of this trade, and everybody knows it.

No, it is quite simple. You're just taking complicating things to another level, and trying to see what you want. Writing a page long response doesn't make it any more right.

It's all good, neither of us will agree with each other, last I'll talk about it

 

[slamigo]

So if this were true, is the media missing the boat?

Ah, that reminds me of one of my favourite BM memes.

 

[Xspyrit]

No, it is quite simple. You're just taking complicating things to another level, and trying to see what you want. Writing a page long response doesn't make it any more right.

It's all good, neither of us will agree with each other, last I'll talk about it

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree here but it's really not that complicated. My methodology is not complex, I have looked at all the picks involved in trades and drafts from 2016 to 2019 to have an EXACT portrait of the situation. I listed all the assets involved in IN and OUT columns. And now I have found equivalents and removed them from the equation to simplify and in the end it all comes down to this :

IN : Gustvasson, late 1st (26th (JBD)), Brassard (2 years rental), Phaneuf (2 years rental)

OUT : Zibanejad, late 2nd (59th OA), early 3rd (64th OA)

And the Duchene trade...

IN : Duchene

OUT : Turris, 1st in 2019, 3rd in 2019, late 1st in 2017 (28th OA)

So what is NOT true here? Do you think I was way off with my equivalents?

The initial idea was that we've been giving away picks like CANDY (read it so many times). It got me curious and wanted to verify if that statement holds the road. But after all the work, IT JUST DOESN'T. Of course, it could be true if Dorion didn't make those Lazar and Brassard trades, but he salvaged most of his previous sabotages by doing so. To be able to look at a situation properly, you have to be able to see both sides of the medal and while he made some very bad moves, he also made some good ones to balance it out. After analyzing all this, I now know that Dorion's work in that regard has not been as dramatic as I thought, and I have not even considered picks given for financial reasons in my research. The problem with him seems more to be that he has not been able to replace players he lost under special circumstances (Methot to ED, MacArthur to concussions, Hoffman to cyberbullying, etc) as well as other stuff but it's another subject.

Anyway, I guess some people WANT to be able to continue making those non-founded statements. I have seen the exact same thing happening on HF for over a decade : non verified blank statements, bias over reason.

And I'm really not a Dorion/Melnyk fan, but I am forced to call a spade a spade.

 

[BondraTime]

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree here but it's really not that complicated. My methodology is not complex, I have looked at all the picks involved in trades and drafts from 2016 to 2019 to have an EXACT portrait of the situation. I listed all the assets involved in IN and OUT columns. And now I have found equivalents and removed them from the equation to simplify and in the end it all comes down to this :

IN : Gustvasson, late 1st (26th (JBD)), Brassard (2 years rental), Phaneuf (2 years rental)

OUT : Zibanejad, late 2nd (59th OA), early 3rd (64th OA)

And the Duchene trade...

IN : Duchene

OUT : Turris, 1st in 2019, 3rd in 2019, late 1st in 2017 (28th OA)

So what is NOT true here? Do you think I was way off with my equivalents?

The initial idea was that we've been giving away picks like CANDY (read it so many times). It got me curious and wanted to verify if that statement holds the road. But after all the work, IT JUST DOESN'T. Of course, it could be true if Dorion didn't make those Lazar and Brassard trades, but he salvaged most of his previous sabotages by doing so. To be able to look at a situation properly, you have to be able to see both sides of the medal and while he made some very bad moves, he also made some good ones to balance it out. After analyzing all this, I now know that Dorion's work in that regard has not been as dramatic as I thought, and I have not even considered picks given for financial reasons in my research. The problem with him seems more to be that he has not been able to replace players he lost under special circumstances (Methot to ED, MacArthur to concussions, Hoffman to cyberbullying, etc) as well as other stuff but it's another subject.

Anyway, I guess some people WANT to be able to continue making those non-founded statements. I have seen the exact same thing happening on HF for over a decade : non verified blank statements, bias over reason.

And I'm really not a Dorion/Melnyk fan, but I am forced to call a spade a spade.

You do you man, cheers

 

[Xspyrit]

You do you man, cheers

Wait are you saying that those equivalents are off?

11th vs 12th
36th vs 33rd
47th vs 42nd
48th vs 42nd
194th vs 193rd
3rd in 2019 vs 90th (assuming Pittsburgh pick will be a late 3rd)
7th in 2019 vs 214th (assuming Calgary pick will be a late 7th)
3rd in 2020 vs 73rd (assuming Columbus pick will be a mid 3rd)
Condon vs 152th (assuming value was similar as Condon was traded for a 5th)
Wingels vs Shore (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 7th)
Stalberg vs Prince (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 3rd)
Burrows vs Lazar (assuming value should have been similar, Burrows was not worth a 2nd (Dahlen) like Lazar shouldn't have returned a 2nd)

I'm not sure how could anyone argue with these with a straight face.

 

[BondraTime]

Wait are you saying that those equivalents are off?

11th vs 12th
36th vs 33rd
47th vs 42nd
48th vs 42nd
194th vs 193rd
3rd in 2019 vs 90th (assuming Pittsburgh pick will be a late 3rd)
7th in 2019 vs 214th (assuming Calgary pick will be a late 7th)
3rd in 2020 vs 73rd (assuming Columbus pick will be a mid 3rd)
Condon vs 152th (assuming value was similar as Condon was traded for a 5th)
Wingels vs Shore (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 7th)
Stalberg vs Prince (assuming value was similar as both were traded for a 3rd)
Burrows vs Lazar (assuming value should have been similar, Burrows was not worth a 2nd (Dahlen) like Lazar shouldn't have returned a 2nd)

I'm not sure how could anyone argue with these with a straight face.

All looks great, we're not going to agree no point in beating the horse any longer

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Dorion could have used some help from Mark Hunter.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I went ahead and replied to these posts from the Lee thread in this thread on the advice of our mods.

Andy signing was fine in the context of the season he went through and the numbers he was able to provide. People want everyone to be treated like robots until it suits them for people to be treated like people. Team respect was shown Andy, who deserved it. He wasn't good last year, along with the rest of the team, but he earned that contract offer, and hopefully will live up to it starting this season.

Gaborik trade was an obvious money deal to get out from under P9's buyout proof contract. You all complained non stop about P9 on the team, and now that he's traded it goes on the last of bad trades... Please.... (snap, snap, snap)... It was a miracle that we found a taker, we have a free space on D now, have a guy that will either be on LTIR or bought out, and we saved money, again, the reason for the trade along with getting rid of an anchor deal.

Condon signing was fine, he came off a season saving season, and is making decent back up money. He had a rough go last year like everyone, but his deal isn't out of line for what he's shown, and it's not breaking the bank.

Hoffman trade was quick and dirty to appease EK after news broke of how deep the issues went. We got a solid NHLer back and went on our way. The draft pick warriors of course are up in arms, but the start show how unlikely a second around pick is ever to be as good as guy like Boedker is now, not to mention his chemistry with our number one centre.

Drafting BT was a consensus solid #4 pick amongst all pro scouts. You stand alone in your assessment of him so I won't bother dealing with you on this further.

Zibby trade, much like Turris, was a solid deal We got a better player for our team, a nice run, and a cheaper deal, for a guy that has consistency and effort issues that we didn't want to commit long term dollars to. I mean, if PD didn't want Zibby as part of his long term plans, the time to trade him was when he did. We then flipped Brassard for our top goalie prospect and two solid draft picks this year. This was a nice win for us in the end.

Thompson? Really? Cheap deal for a 4th line centre who was fine for us. Instead of what, playing a rookie there? You're reaching dog, lame example.

Oduya was a fine veteran pick up, over used by GB. He wasn't as bad as many folks claim, but he was not a top line D man, but was often used as such.

Losing Method in the expansion draft was fine. While he may have been a glue guy, he was not a top line defender, was making a lot of money for how injury prone he was, and in the end we're better off without him going forward. Sure our D suffered being a man down, but such is life after an expansion draft. Picking up a replacement of similar dollars was obviously not an option given the roster budget.

Smith is fine, hardly overpaid for what he brings in a regular year. He was deserving of the contract when it was signed.

This list makes me laugh as 90% of it are small roll players that teams takes chances on all across the league, and money deals that we have to make here and there to make the books balance.

This is hardly a list of trades to indict a GM over, especially one who has operated under the conditions ours has, while trying for a run, and attempting to maintain a playoff team. It's pretty weak really.

First off, the Anderson deal was bad from the get go. You can keep shouting about loyalty but at the end of the day signing big money 35+ contracts on multi year deals when you're constantly crying about a budget is a terrible decision and that reflects the results.

Secondly, I was not one to complain a ton about Phaneuf and I didn't like trading him for Gaborik, don't project some other's opinions on me. I always thought he was overpaid but still nonetheless useful. We traded a useful overpaid player for a useless overpaid player and saved very very little in the deal. We're gonna pay 1.75M for the next 3 years for Phaneuf to not play for us and we have a massive hole in our top 4 with absolutely nothing to show for it. That is a poor trade.

Condon. Backup goalie signed to a 3 year contract. Absolutely no reason for this ever. Gonna make 3M in his final season of that deal. That's so bad for a BUDGET TEAM when Karlsson's new contract would kick in.

Zibanejad is a better player than Brassard. He showed that in the playoffs vs us in the OTT-NYR series and over the course of the past 2 regular seasons. We traded a better, young player for a guy who isn't playing for us anymore AND gave a top 40 pick up in the process. That's another L.

Smith. Obviously not fine. Making middle six money and is AHL quality. Stop signing these bottom 6 plugs to multi year contracts.

I don't know why you seem to think that so many bad moves are just neutral or good. The team was crap because of so many crappy moves. We're seeing the results of this play out. Why the constant denial of what's right in front of you? Dorion constructed the worst team in franchise history since expansion. He deserves to take personal responsibility for his vision.

Dale Tallon said Dorion wanted a roster player back for Hoffman while all he was willing to give were picks.

Don't let that get in the way of your delusions

Yeah, Tallon saying Dorion wanted roster players is exactly why I said 1. Dorion's inability to assess where his team is at. He needed to get quality assets back for Hoffman and he got another team's cap dump while that team turned around and got quality assets back just hours later. We could have had Boedker for nothing, if we wanted after dumping Hoff for picks. Or we could have used Hoffman's salary relief to bring in someone else or reinvest that into our own team (Stone, Duchene, Karlsson). That was a terrible sequence of events for Dorion and it made him look completely incompetent.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Murray pretty much constructed the current team. Dorion just went and made it worse. Let’s not act like Dorion walked into a great situation. He didn’t. Murray made several bad moves in his tenure, and yet hardly anyone criticized him since he’s a nice guy and from the Ottawa area. The fact that he was the first person indicted in the ring of honour or whatever it’s called is a joke. Guy did f*** all for nine years and is treated like a guy who could do no wrong in this town. Dorion sucks, but Murray wasn’t much better.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Murray pretty much constructed the current team. Dorion just went and made it worse. Let’s not act like Dorion walked into a great situation. He didn’t. Murray made several bad moves in his tenure, and yet hardly anyone criticized him since he’s a nice guy and from the Ottawa area. The fact that he was the first person indicted in the ring of honour or whatever it’s called is a joke. Guy did **** all for nine years and is treated like a guy who could do no wrong in this town. Dorion sucks, but Murray wasn’t much better.

Murray made a lot of mistakes.

Oduya, Duchene, Brassard, Thompson, Burrows, Condon, Didomenico, Gaborik, Pyatt, Dumont and Pajaarvi were all guys Dorion brought in and played regularly. He also extended Borowiecki, Hoffman, Dzingel, Smith, McCormick and Anderson. That team was in large part constructed by Dorion and even moreso now.

 

[JungleBeat]

Murray pretty much constructed the current team. Dorion just went and made it worse. Let’s not act like Dorion walked into a great psituation. He didn’t. Murray made several bad moves in his tenure, and yet hardly anyone criticized him since he’s a nice guy and from the Ottawa area. The fact that he was the first person indicted in the ring of honour or whatever it’s called is a joke. Guy did **** all for nine years and is treated like a guy who could do no wrong in this town. Dorion sucks, but Murray wasn’t much better.

Murray was a terrible GM, he should have stuck to coaching. He inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and did absolutely nothing with it. This organization needs a clean sweep of management from the top down to get rid of this Old Boys Club. It’s slowly happening:

Out
Randy Lee
Bryan Murray
Tim Murray
Justin Murray
Luke Richardson
Jason Smith
Dave Cameron

Next up
Pierre Dorion

*Fingers crossed for a Melnyk sale

When compared to Dorion, Murray acted like a true professional (sans comments about Wikstrand). Dorion is a goofy coward who’s not built to be a GM.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Murray made a lot of mistakes.

Oduya, Duchene, Brassard, Thompson, Burrows, Condon, Didomenico, Gaborik, Pyatt, Dumont and Pajaarvi were all guys Dorion brought in and played regularly. He also extended Borowiecki, Hoffman, Dzingel, Smith and Anderson. That team was in large part constructed by Dorion and even moreso now.

Extending Hoffman is not a bad thing, nor is playing Duchene, although you can certainly criticize what he gave up to get him. Gaborik is here because of Murray. He signed the three stooges (MM9, Cowen and Greening) and then traded them for Homophobic Sluroof.

Pyatt is fine, so is Paajarvi so far.

Both guys made mistakes. Trading Bishop for Conacher, the Spezza trade, drafting Lazar and Ceci etc.

Arguing who is worse between Murray and Dorion is like arguing who is dumber between Harry and Lloyd in Dumb and Dumber.

I look forward to the day we get a new owner, ditch Dorion and get a real GM in here.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Extending Hoffman is not a bad thing, nor is playing Duchene, although you can certainly criticize what he gave up to get him. Gaborik is here because of Murray. He signed the three stooges (MM9, Cowen and Greening) and then traded them for Homophobic Sluroof.

Pyatt is fine, so is Paajarvi so far.

Both guys made mistakes. Trading Bishop for Conacher, the Spezza trade, drafting Lazar and Ceci etc.

Arguing who is worse between Murray and Dorion is like arguing who is dumber between Harry and Lloyd in Dumb and Dumber.

I look forward to the day we get a new owner, ditch Dorion and get a real GM in here.

I was just saying that the team was almost a majority of Dorion players last year. I wasn't saying who was good or bad, just that most of the guys who were on our worst team in almost 20 years were Dorion's. Murray made load of mistakes but he made them over 9 years. Dorion has arguably made more in a really short amount of time and IMO the worst trade made in our history. You can't just brush it all off and blame Murray. Dorion had a big hand in what's transpired.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I went ahead and replied to these posts from the Lee thread in this thread on the advice of our mods.



First off, the Anderson deal was bad from the get go. You can keep shouting about loyalty but at the end of the day signing big money 35+ contracts on multi year deals when you're constantly crying about a budget is a terrible decision and that reflects the results.

I'm not shouting, just typing away like you. In my opinion he earned his deal, you don't reward loyalty because you're sitting at your computer and players are names and numbers to you. Sometimes these things work out and sometimes they don't Andy was expected to be better last year, and should be better next year. You absolutely do reward loyalty, in the real world, especially to the best goaltender we've ever had coming off that season and the sacrifices he made for the team. It's moves like this that help build team culture and reputation as good organizations that take care of their players. The way you look at players and deals, the way you post here, all our guys would leave the second they could and none would want to play for, or work with, GM FQL.

Secondly, I was not one to complain a ton about Phaneuf and I didn't like trading him for Gaborik, don't project some other's opinions on me. I always thought he was overpaid but still nonetheless useful. We traded a useful overpaid player for a useless overpaid player and saved very very little in the deal. We're gonna pay 1.75M for the next 3 years for Phaneuf to not play for us and we have a massive hole in our top 4 with absolutely nothing to show for it. That is a poor trade.

It was a popular opinion and I'm surprised you didn't hold it given your posting, I mean this is the guy you're choosing to defend? His contract was bad, our situation with Gabby is much better financially, and we opened up a spot on D. P9 was serviceable, but slow and was not going to get any better. His contract was worse that Ryan's. We basically got rid of a bad contract for almost nothing, this is not a bad trade at a all.

Condon. Backup goalie signed to a 3 year contract. Absolutely no reason for this ever. Gonna make 3M in his final season of that deal. That's so bad for a BUDGET TEAM when Karlsson's new contract would kick in.

Yeah you take that chance on a guy who had a great season for us. It's not a lot of money and if he continues to play at the same rate its a steal. Sometimes these deals work and sometimes they don't either way you're not overly worried because it's not a lot of money. When they work though it's great for a budget team. Condon is not preventing EK from getting a deal.

Zibanejad is a better player than Brassard. He showed that in the playoffs vs us in the OTT-NYR series and over the course of the past 2 regular seasons. We traded a better, young player for a guy who isn't playing for us anymore AND gave a top 40 pick up in the process. That's another L.

No he really isn't and wasn't. I'm happy to watch PD rid the team of the lazy non committed players on the roster in exchange for guys who play hard and have a will to win. Zib had neither, but the occasional flash. He wasn't much during the playoffs, a flash here and there as usual. In the end when we started towards a rebuild/tool we traded Brass for another return better for our team than Zib. I'm happy wth Gus and our two d prospects over Zib everyday of the week, especially since we're not saddled with that contract, which was the the whole reason why he had to go when he went.

Smith. Obviously not fine. Making middle six money and is AHL quality. Stop signing these bottom 6 plugs to multi year contracts.

Like almost every player on the team he was not good last year, but he is a versatile middle six forward making middle six money. Your hyperbole about AHL is what it is.

I don't know why you seem to think that so many bad moves are just neutral or good. The team was crap because of so many crappy moves. We're seeing the results of this play out. Why the constant denial of what's right in front of you? Dorion constructed the worst team in franchise history since expansion. He deserves to take personal responsibility for his vision.

The worst team since expansion? The team we see next year on the ice is going to be the best example of what PD has constructed, there are only a few Murray guys left and his picks are starting to come up. We shall see, I like the make up of our team, and assuming that we're able to keep the big three I'm excited to see them grow.

Yeah, Tallon saying Dorion wanted roster players is exactly why I said 1. Dorion's inability to assess where his team is at. He needed to get quality assets back for Hoffman and he got another team's cap dump while that team turned around and got quality assets back just hours later. We could have had Boedker for nothing, if we wanted after dumping Hoff for picks. Or we could have used Hoffman's salary relief to bring in someone else or reinvest that into our own team (Stone, Duchene, Karlsson). That was a terrible sequence of events for Dorion and it made him look completely incompetent.

Replies are in bold under each paragraph.

The problem here is that you over value draft picks. You see a 2nd and 3rd as NHLers, when the stats show how small a chance it is that either picks would ever be NHL regulars, let alone as good as Boedker. PD identified that instead of later picks that may yield players several years down the road, that it might be nice to get a solid NHLer to play on the roster this upcoming year instead. Especially given that we have a bunch of prospects developing, and several more picks on the way. We actually do need some quality bodies to play on the team, and we can't fill the roster with rookies.

Boedker is not holding up signing our top players, you know this, nice try. You're also undervaluing Boedker because the Sharks needed cap relief. his doesn't make him a bad player, nor does it make him a guy we could have just gotten for free. There was zero chance that the Sharks dump him for nothing, he's actually a pretty good player, some team would have traded for him if not us. Also, the trade was time sensitive given the accusations of cyber bullying, the trade was like done fast in order to help the Karlsson's feel supported rather than making it seem like asset management must always come first.

Look, not all his moves panned out as hoped or expected, some have been great in my opinion, some good, and a few have ended up bad. That goes for every team who has a GM willing to make trades. I for one like the kind of team that he wants to create, and like the types of players that we are bringing in and drafting. I'm willing to be patient and see the team he creates in the end, because the last few teams have been lacking, especially the PD took over.

 

[bert]

Wild stuff in this thread 'Murray inherited a SCF team' that was absolutely decimated by horrible horrible decisions by Muckler. Terrible drafting and some of the worst asset management ive seen since well this current GM pierre Dorion. Its insane that anyone defends Dorion given the current state of the team.

 

[bert]

Murray was a terrible GM, he should have stuck to coaching. He inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and did absolutely nothing with it. This organization needs a clean sweep of management from the top down to get rid of this Old Boys Club. It’s slowly happening:

Out
Randy Lee
Bryan Murray
Tim Murray
Justin Murray
Luke Richardson
Jason Smith
Dave Cameron

Next up
Pierre Dorion

*Fingers crossed for a Melnyk sale

When compared to Dorion, Murray acted like a true professional (sans comments about Wikstrand). Dorion is a goofy coward who’s not built to be a GM.

Go look at what Muckler did with that team. Give it an honest go, if you cant rememeber you must be a new fan or have a bad memory. That statement is so out of wack 'Murray inherited a SCF team'. Lol

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah, Tallon saying Dorion wanted roster players is exactly why I said 1. Dorion's inability to assess where his team is at. He needed to get quality assets back for Hoffman and he got another team's cap dump while that team turned around and got quality assets back just hours later. We could have had Boedker for nothing, if we wanted after dumping Hoff for picks. Or we could have used Hoffman's salary relief to bring in someone else or reinvest that into our own team (Stone, Duchene, Karlsson). That was a terrible sequence of events for Dorion and it made him look completely incompetent.

The team sucked last year and was on the verge of losing it's best goal scoring forward and you think that insisting on getting a player back is failure of assessment?!

You are as inconsistent as a Trumpkin. It's hard to not become what you hate, no hard feelings.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Dorion could have used some help from Mark Hunter.

Would have been a great hiring not just for the scouting mind but also direct access to one of the best development team in the planet.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Dorion should be the AGM to someone more qualified. Someone that has more hockey org management experience. Someone that has more backbone. Someone that is not afraid to lose his job by hiring qualified people under him. Someone that can stand up to Melnyk on hockey decisions, and organizational need decisions.