The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

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harrisb

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Oct 6, 2009
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Yes, I saw what you did there, very clever.

The point isn't that we shouldn't speculate, it's that we shouldn't speculate and then pretend that it's a fact.

See what I just did there?
In which case we need to evaluate PD for his performance as Euge has no confirmed influence and it cannot be confirmed that PD knew about any of his ways of doing business.

With that said I'll go first F- (the additional - is because you'd have to be a complete moron to not know after working for Euge that this is his MO)

edit: From the trade tracker thread here is who has came to the org and left the org under PD's 'cough' leadership.

IN:
PlayersDraft picks
Matt Duchene2016 11th overall pick (Logan Brown)
Mikkel Boedker2017 2nd round pick (Alex Formenton)
Mike Condon2018 22nd overall pick
Marian Gaborik2018 7th round pick
Viktor Stalberg2019 3rd round pick
Filip Gustafsson2019 7th round pick
Tommy Wingels2020 3rd round pick
Alex Burrows2020 6th round pick
Julius Bergman
Patrick Sieloff
Ville Pokka
Jyrki Jokipakka
Brandon Gormley
Nick Moutrey
Marc Hagel
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
OUT:
PlayersDraft picks
Kyle Turris2016 12th overall pick (Michael McLeod)
Mika Zibanejad2016 3rd round pick (Joey Anderson)
Mike Hoffman2017 3rd round pick (Evan Barratt)
Derick Brassard2017 5th round pick (Jan Drozg)
Dion Phaneuf2017 7th round pick (Matthew Hellickson)
Ian Cole2018 4th overall pick OR 2019 1st round pick
Shane Bowers2018 2nd round pick
Jonathan Dahlen2018 3rd round pick
Nate Thompson2019 3rd round pick
Alex Chiasson2020 5th round pick
Curtis Lazar
Nick Shore
Andrew Hammond
Chris Didomenico
Mike Kostka
Cody Donaghey
Buddy Robinson
Vincent Dunn
Zack Stortini
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
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In which case we need to evaluate PD for his performance as Euge has no confirmed influence and it cannot be confirmed that PD knew about any of his ways of doing business.

With that said I'll go first F- (the additional - is because you'd have to be a complete moron to not know after working for Euge that this is his MO)

edit: From the trade tracker thread here is who has came to the org and left the org under PD's 'cough' leadership.

IN:
PlayersDraft picks
Matt Duchene2016 11th overall pick (Logan Brown)
Mikkel Boedker2017 2nd round pick (Alex Formenton)
Mike Condon2018 22nd overall pick
Marian Gaborik2018 7th round pick
Viktor Stalberg2019 3rd round pick
Filip Gustafsson2019 7th round pick
Tommy Wingels2020 3rd round pick
Alex Burrows2020 6th round pick
Julius Bergman
Patrick Sieloff
Ville Pokka
Jyrki Jokipakka
Brandon Gormley
Nick Moutrey
Marc Hagel
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
OUT:
PlayersDraft picks
Kyle Turris2016 12th overall pick (Michael McLeod)
Mika Zibanejad2016 3rd round pick (Joey Anderson)
Mike Hoffman2017 3rd round pick (Evan Barratt)
Derick Brassard2017 5th round pick (Jan Drozg)
Dion Phaneuf2017 7th round pick (Matthew Hellickson)
Ian Cole2018 4th overall pick OR 2019 1st round pick
Shane Bowers2018 2nd round pick
Jonathan Dahlen2018 3rd round pick
Nate Thompson2019 3rd round pick
Alex Chiasson2020 5th round pick
Curtis Lazar
Nick Shore
Andrew Hammond
Chris Didomenico
Mike Kostka
Cody Donaghey
Buddy Robinson
Vincent Dunn
Zack Stortini
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Hmmm, so what are you trying to accomplish with this? I can see that you've presented a table of assets in and out.

You don't know the nature of what PD has been allowed to do and not allowed to do, though it would seem that most moves have financial motivations attached. In the end you can't really make an effective evaluation without all of the information. As for knowing what he's dealing with, it is possible that the man wants to keep his job for as long as he can, I mean, wouldn't you? It's not like he's compromising anything real world important here...

Anyways, you can make a personal evaluation based on what you think of the deals, but really, that's about it at this point, other than speculating about PD being completely to blame, or whatever it is that your point is. I personally am waiting this all out for the most part, I'm curious to see how it all unfolds. My point was simply that you have been speculating, which is fine, but it's bad form to treat that as factual.

Nice table though, very straight.
 

harrisb

Registered User
Oct 6, 2009
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Hmmm, so what are you trying to accomplish with this? I can see that you've presented a table of assets in and out.

You don't know the nature of what PD has been allowed to do and not allowed to do, though it would seem that most moves have financial motivations attached. In the end you can't really make an effective evaluation without all of the information. As for knowing what he's dealing with, it is possible that the man wants to keep his job for as long as he can, I mean, wouldn't you? It's not like he's compromising anything real world important here...

Anyways, you can make a personal evaluation based on what you think of the deals, but really, that's about it at this point, other than speculating about PD being completely to blame, or whatever it is that your point is. I personally am waiting this all out for the most part, I'm curious to see how it all unfolds. My point was simply that you have been speculating, which is fine, but it's bad form to treat that as factual.

Nice table though, very straight.
People were speculating that the state of affairs is not PD's fault as his hands are tied by Euge.
I stated that he signed his 3 year deal knowing full well Euge's MO
You stated that I could not know this so we cannot treat it as fact
I stated that you could not know Euge interferes so that cannot be fact either
I then said that if that is the way we are going to look at things then PD needs to be evaluated on his record, gave him a grade and supplied the material to support my evaluation.

I thought it was fairly straight forward. BTW, message boards like this are for rumour, speculation and viewpoints.
 
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Tnuoc Alucard

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"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion
 

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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People were speculating that the state of affairs is not PD's fault as his hands are tied by Euge.
I stated that he signed his 3 year deal knowing full well Euge's MO
You stated that I could not know this so we cannot treat it as fact
I stated that you could not know Euge interferes so that cannot be fact either
I then said that if that is the way we are going to look at things then PD needs to be evaluated on his record, gave him a grade and supplied the material to support my evaluation.

I thought it was fairly straight forward. BTW, message boards like this are for rumour, speculation and viewpoints.

I know what you posted, and I appreciate the effort you put in, but we're circling back to the point that we can't authentically evaluate PD's performance outside of the environment that he's operating in. We don't know the particulars of what he's allowed and not allowed to do, but we have a good idea that the following is likely true:

1) We have an internal budget
2) PD has made several moves dating back a few years that have all had financial implications along with the hockey deal aspects.
3) The organization has seemingly pared down the organizational staff to bare bones, only recently hiring two front house executives, amid sale rumours
4) EM has hinted at not being able to afford a premium salary offer to EK
5) Debt was restructured to provide cash to operate with.
6) Offers have been made to buy or partner in on the Sens, have been rejected to date, but obviously being entertained to some degree
7) Assistant GM in legal trouble, is unlikely to return to his post, and has been away from the team for virtually the entire summer. No indication that he ever had a hand in contracts or trade negotiations, was a Murray promotion.

All of these things indicate that the team is likely suffering from a lack of funds, not just a budget team, but one that has to recoup money here and there as much as possible. A team that had to thin out the hockey ops side of things to a skeleton crew to keep costs low.

This is a pretty extraordinary position to put a GM in, especially a rookie GM who lost his mentor too soon. I doubt that there is another GM in the league that has the working pressure that PD has on him since day one. Pressure from angry fans, pressure from an outspoken and universally disliked broke owner, pressure from players wanting to be payed fair market prices, and no one to lean on or help out in the office beyond a top notch, but small, scouting team. All the while he has to try and put a positive spin on things for the fans, and protecting/handling his boss. I'm not trying to argue that he's been great at all, but I wouldn't expect him to be given the circumstances. He was nominated for GM of the year his first year, which is admirable.

Yes, we don't know exactly what EM has been doing (has he been pushing for play-offs or refusing big contracts to Turris, etc...), or what PD has had to deal with, but taking a look at the environment gives us a good indication that it's not business as usual for a GM.

One of the reasons why I like PD is that I am assuming that he has a crazy situation that he's working in, and yet he goes in there and tries to make the best of it. The players seem to like him, he's not afraid to go out and make deals, and he's learning on the job about how to deal with the media effectively. I like several of his trades, and not as much some others, but he's clearly doing what he can given the circumstances. Is this another case of us finding out just how much behind the scenes stuff PD had to deal with down the road when he's gone?

Are we really that sure that another GM could come in and somehow run a better show under the same circumstances? I know I'm not.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,328
8,139
Victoria
"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion

It may be true, and may not be, but part of his job is to protect and deflect for his boss. There are not many that believe this to be entirely true, not anymore.

Having said that, I think many are glad that we didn't commit that term and money to KT, and I can see why, especially being a budget team, that we would pass on it.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
15,290
10,517
Yukon
"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion
I think we all remember this quote after the Turris trade. It's not whether it was said though, it's whether or not people believe it, which clearly most do not.
 

Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
5,306
1,610
Ottawa
"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion

Love referring to himself in the third person, that's classic, I don't believe him here for a second but understand why he has to say this, perhaps Eugene doesn't get involved as much as some of us here believe however I am fairly certain an unrealistic and uncompetitive to today's standards budget is directly set by the owner. Personally at this time I really only look negatively on the Burrows trade because it appears to be a rare instance where the balance sheet wasn't a factor and it was still a bad trade imo.
 

UnHappyDude

Fire Dorion
Jan 11, 2011
2,128
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Doesn't have to be a press conference. Every other year we get interviews with the Team 1200 or on SensTV about the draft, Dev camp and after major signings at minimum. Usually one or two more throughout the summer. This year it's been zero, and even at the draft when he was forced in to the spotlight, he started it all off with refusing to answer any roster related questions. We haven't heard a thing about the roster since before the trade deadline.

Yeah. But thats because its just a complete tire fire and anything he says that isn't great news is only going to throw gas on the flames. The new PR firms first direction to Dorion was to stop talking immediately. I doubt there is going to be any good news this year at all. depending on the return for Karlsson, Its going to be a loser team that just plays terribly. Hopefully we finish better than last year though.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
15,290
10,517
Yukon
Yeah. But thats because its just a complete tire fire and anything he says that isn't great news is only going to throw gas on the flames. The new PR firms first direction to Dorion was to stop talking immediately. I doubt there is going to be any good news this year at all. depending on the return for Karlsson, Its going to be a loser team that just plays terribly. Hopefully we finish better than last year though.
Your theory could very well be right. I personally think and hope it has more to do with something happening with ownership and we'll all of a sudden hear why there's been complete silence. I do think that no matter how bad it is, they still need to be out there trying to drum up excitement and the draft and dev camp are perfect opportunities for that. We've had tough years before, including a rebuild and in all my years of following this team, ive never seen it come even close to this much silence. Its been zip nada nothing including his refusal to answer roster questions at the draft. Hell, we arent even getting any player interviews on team1200 this year other than one from Burrows who was no longer employed by us and a 3 minute sound bite from Stone, its as if the entire organization has mandated complete silence from the players to the scouts to the management to the owner.

If they start the year with their 4 best players as pending UFA's then that tells me something else is going on holding up any re-signing because not even the worst manager in all of pro sports would do that to themselves. Its unprecedented even for a shit show like this.
 
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Pierre from Orleans

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May 9, 2007
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"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion
What do you expect him to say? Indirectly lay the blame on the person who employs him?
 

FlyingJ

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Feb 25, 2014
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"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion

Hmmmm, I've read this before. IIRC, someone who would have more insight into how this organization is run commented on this.

 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Hmmmm, I've read this before. IIRC, someone who would have more insight into how this organization is run commented on this.




So a wife of a traded player, has more insight into how Senators management operates, than the General Manager does.


So if you believe that, then you would also believe that Melnyk is both cheap, and also paying a GM to not make any hockey decisions, because he make all of them.


But if he's so cheap, and makes all the hockey decisions, why would he pay Pierre Dorion to pretend to be the GM ........ why would he not just let Dorion go, and become the GM?
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
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You mean like saying that Melnyk is stopping him from doing his job? See what I just did there....

There is an EXTREMELY high probability that PD knew about Euge's way of doing business before signing on for 3 more years. This didn't just start this season and PD was the GM before and has been in the org longer than the Euge himself.

One thing though....there are only 31 of these jobs in the world. This is Dorions big payday. Integrity is a great thing (and I understand what you're saying in your posts about having integrity and saying no to a no-win job).....but this is the real world. Having that money, the prestige, and that on the resume (even as a failure) opens a lifetime of doors. No one who doesn't have tens of millions in the bank will turn it down.
 

Ray Kinsella

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Feb 13, 2018
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So a wife of a traded player, has more insight into how Senators management operates, than the General Manager does.


So if you believe that, then you would also believe that Melnyk is both cheap, and also paying a GM to not make any hockey decisions, because he make all of them.


But if he's so cheap, and makes all the hockey decisions, why would he pay Pierre Dorion to pretend to be the GM ........ why would he not just let Dorion go, and become the GM?

Feel free to let us in on the answers.
 
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Cosmix

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I think anybody that watched the draft is well aware that the decisions all go through Melnyk, including the hockey ones.

I have no doubt that Dorion makes the hockey decisions and Melnyk makes the business and cost related decisions. Unfortunately when trades and signings are made, those two aspects are part of the deal. Dorion determines which players to trade for/away, but this must be done within the guidance/decisions regarding costs set by Melnyk.

Example - Dorion wanted to trade Zibanejad for Brassard. That was the hockey decision. The cost impact had to be done within Melnyk’s budget for the team. So . . .
 

FlyingJ

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Feb 25, 2014
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So a wife of a traded player, has more insight into how Senators management operates, than the General Manager does.


So if you believe that, then you would also believe that Melnyk is both cheap, and also paying a GM to not make any hockey decisions, because he make all of them.


But if he's so cheap, and makes all the hockey decisions, why would he pay Pierre Dorion to pretend to be the GM ........ why would he not just let Dorion go, and become the GM?

[mod]

Dorion is going to protect his own skin, and that involves making his boss happy. What's he supposed to say? "Yes, I am a puppet"? Can you imagine how that would blow up in the media?

Meanwhile, Julie Turris likely hears EVERYTHING regarding her husband's negotiations with the team, and now has no obligation to pump their tires after her husband was traded. So I will definitely put more value in her word than Pierre's, especially if he's in front of reporters.

As for why Pierre is employed as opposed to Melnyk doing everything? Running a hockey team is a big job. So Melnyk needs cronies he can rely on to do his bidding.

And yes, I do believe Melnyk is cheap. Especially since he admitted at the Winter Classic to cutting the team's staff to the bone. But he's got to keep some loyal stooges, and Pierre fits the bill perfectly.

I know criticizing your hero, Uncle Eugene, riles you up, but could you perhaps try to take a step back when commenting on others' criticism of him?
 
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Samsquanch

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So a wife of a traded player, has more insight into how Senators management operates, than the General Manager does.


So if you believe that, then you would also believe that Melnyk is both cheap, and also paying a GM to not make any hockey decisions, because he make all of them.


But if he's so cheap, and makes all the hockey decisions, why would he pay Pierre Dorion to pretend to be the GM ........ why would he not just let Dorion go, and become the GM?

EM doesnt want to be the day to day GM. Hes plenty comfortable living in Barbados.

Beyond making trades and signing players, theres a lot of other crap that the GM is doing on a daily basis. Especially a team with a bare bones operation staff, like ours.

No sadly EM is content with paying the bare minimum for a GM, and running the team like hes playing be a GM mode in NHL 18.

He'll periodically get a text message asking him to make a hockey ops decision, and then go back to simming through the season (and being rich).

Its hard to fault the guy too (aside from being a horrible owner), it does kind of sound like a fun rich-guy hobby.
 
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Tnuoc Alucard

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[mod]

Dorion is going to protect his own skin, and that involves making his boss happy. What's he supposed to say? "Yes, I am a puppet"? Can you imagine how that would blow up in the media?

Meanwhile, Julie Turris likely hears EVERYTHING regarding her husband's negotiations with the team, and now has no obligation to pump their tires after her husband was traded. So I will definitely put more value in her word than Pierre's, especially if he's in front of reporters.

As for why Pierre is employed as opposed to Melnyk doing everything? Running a hockey team is a big job. So Melnyk needs cronies he can rely on to do his bidding.

And yes, I do believe Melnyk is cheap. Especially since he admitted at the Winter Classic to cutting the team's staff to the bone. But he's got to keep some loyal stooges, and Pierre fits the bill perfectly.

I know criticizing your hero, Uncle Eugene, riles you up, but could you perhaps try to take a step back when commenting on others' criticism of him?





Again, EM is no ones hero, don't know how many times I've pointed that out.

JT hears ONLY about the dealings that concerned her husband, nothing else, and therefore would little to nothing on the day to day operations of the organization.


But for some reason you seem to put more stock in the little insight a players wife has (second hand) into how the team operates, than the General Manager.

Perhaps the media should be interviewing some of the wives to get some more insight on the current of season ........... right?
 
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BatherSeason

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But for some reason you seem to put more stock in the little insight a players wife has (second hand) into how the team operates, than the General Manager.

Maybe if the General Manager poked his head out of his hole every once in a while to help sell hope to the fleeting fanbase...

Perhaps the media should be interviewing some of the wives to get some more insight on the current of season

Since everyone who works for the organization is hiding from the outside world, the wives would definitely provide more insight, especially since there seems to be quite a bit of news coming from and about the players wives on this team.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Since everyone who works for the organization is hiding from the outside world, the wives would definitely provide more insight, especially since there seems to be quite a bit of news coming from and about the players wives on this team.


So if this were true, is the media missing the boat?
 

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
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"Everything hockey goes through me, not through Mr. Melnyk, we made a decision here, obviously we talked about it when we made the trade. We wish Kyle the best of luck, he's a great human being. The contract that he signed with them he wouldn't take with us. It's as simple as that. Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions. I get great support from Mr. Melnyk, but Pierre Dorion makes hockey decisions."

Pierre Dorion
Again. Why do you always assume people in positions of authority are telling the truth?especially when there’s a bunch of stuff that says otherwise.
 
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