The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[Tuna99]

Demelo and Tierney are not worth even close to that much

I have faith in Dorion.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I have faith in Dorion.

So you're the one

 

[Liver King]

Two 2nd round picks for Demelo? Wtf are ppl smoking lmao

 

[GCK]

Demelo and Tierney are not worth even close to that much

You honestly don’t think Tierney would net a 2nd and 3rd.

 

[IlTerrifico]

From now on all ridiculous proposals should be met with 'and I had dibs on some swamp land in Lebreton where I would've let you build me an arena if you basically let me use it for free'.

 

[Tuna99]

You honestly don’t think Tierney would net a 2nd and 3rd.

Plekanec got a 2nd rounder at the deadline

 

[Agent Zub]

He is nearing the end of his prime years.

hes 28 and still the best d in hockey.

 

[bert]

hes 28 and still the best d in hockey.

Still debating this?

And yes Tierney gets a 2nd rounder lol. Probably a late first at the deadline.

I am starting to think last year was a last shot at a cup type move by the organization. Had no intentions of ever extending Karlsson and Melnyk knew he didnt have much time left owning the team/while being competitive. So they made the Duchene deal in hopes it would push them over the top, win then let everyone walk. The more i think about it based on Melnyks situation and his business and team strategies it seems more and more like this was the actual plan.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Still debating this?

And yes Tierney gets a 2nd rounder lol. Probably a late first at the deadline.

I am starting to think last year was a last shot at a cup type move by the organization. Had no intentions of ever extending Karlsson and Melnyk knew he didnt have much time left owning the team/while being competitive. So they made the Duchene deal in hopes it would push them over the top, win then let everyone walk. The more i think about it based on Melnyks situation and his business and team strategies it seems more and more like this was the actual plan.

I don't know.. if acquiring Duchene was the only move dorion thought he needed for a last ditch attempt to win the cup, then I think we are in some serious trouble....actually I guess he though Duchene and oduya together would take us to the promise land

 

[God Says No]

I don't know.. if acquiring Duchene was the only move dorion thought he needed for a last ditch attempt to win the cup, then I think we are in some serious trouble....actually I guess he though Duchene and oduya together would take us to the promise land

This is Dorion we are talking about. I'm convinced they were convinced getting Duchene would put them over. It was such a large miscalculation which blew up in their collective faces, and here we are.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Tierney easily gets either a late 1st or two 2nd round picks. Look at what players like Eller and Shaw were moved for.

It doesn't make sense for the Senators to move him right now though. He's cost controlled for another year, and then has a third year of team control. The time to move him would be at next year's draft or deadline to a team who likes him enough to want to extend him long term.

 

[Xspyrit]

Maybe people will look at it negatively if that happens, but I think that would be a flawed way to look at the trade.

A lot of what San Jose gets from the trade is based on paying for chance, so we can't just eliminate the value (at the time of the trade) of that chance, even if it doesn't work out in the end. The chance of seeing how far they go by adding the absolute best rental that has been available to any team in recent memory, and the chance of having the inside track to sign this generations best defenseman,

None of the pieces they gave up hurt them at all. This doesn't mean we didn't get pieces that will help us given that Karlsson was gone anyways and it was presumably the best offer, but it was basically an HFBoards trade proposal in "Let me list six pieces I don't care that much about so I don't have to give you a really good piece!". If someone made that same proposal six months ago, it would have probably been locked and an HFBoards moderator would have phoned the original poster's ISP in order to request that they block HFBoards from their service.

San Jose getting the opportunities they've gotten with Karlsson (Playoff run, inside track to re-sign him) without hurting themselves with the return is bonkers. It shows both how badly we flubbed the trade, and how badly other GMs were sleeping on acquiring Karlsson. This trade only ends up hurting San Jose if all three of the following happen. Not just one, but all three. Erik Karlsson doesn't re-sign. The Sharks miss the playoffs in 2020. The Sharks pick wins the lottery in 2020. The odds of all three of those things happening are astronomically low.

Well, I totally disagree with this and for many reasons. The same could be said about any trade the Sens made to improve their team (or any team for that matter), but those trades have been lambasted or deemed as huge losses by many (Duchene, Ryan, etc) even if they were extended or possibly extended. In all those trades of a current player for a future package, teams are obviously betting on getting their "chances" higher.

Maybe losing DeMelo and Tierney doesn't hurt them at all (because they had the depth) but a 1st (that still could be high next year) and a 2nd this year are 2 pieces that no team will not see as a significant (without talking about the other 2 conditional 1st). But it's not just the picks, we have no idea what Balcers and Norris will be but the potential is there. Personally, I see Norris as becoming a player close to White impact level. Harder to say about Balcers but he will eventually get his chance, could see him having a Dzingel-like impact down the road.

It's easy to say "none of those pieces hurt them at all" but in reality if the roles were reversed and the Sens gave up White, Chlapik, a 1st (that could be lottery next year), a 2nd, Pageau and Harpur for a star player that didn't re-sign in the end, many fans would be calling for the GM's head without any doubt, and that's with the Sens prospect pool being much better than the Sharks. Heck, look at the amount of complaining for Duchene trade even if we gave up less in Turris, Bowers and a 1st + 3rd (which would have been similar in value IMO to White, Pageau and a 1st that could be lottery next year). So basically (again IMO), Sharks gave up Chlapik, a 2nd and Harpur in additional value to get Karlsson for 1 year compared to a younger and a bit cheaper Duchene for 2 years. Sure Karlsson is supposed to be much better than Duchene but EK is not as dominant as he was pre-injury, although he seems to be slowly going back to his elite level.

Or even the Ryan trade, honestly not having any of Silfverberg (0.51 PPG with the Ducks despite prime TOI and opportunity), Ritchie (0.34 PPG in 207 Games) (although we could possibly have made a better draft choice but not guaranteed as that draft was kind of weak) and Noesen (ended up being waived) doesn't hurt but yet some are still talking about this deal as the end of the world... And Ryan didn't walk after 1 year, he had 2 years at $5,562,500 salary and put up ~0.7 PPG seasons. He ended up being extended (what people wanted) and still had another ~0.7 PPG season. Sure he's been overpaid since and inconsistent (mainly due to being so injury prone) but he had some solid stretches of hockey (ex : 2017 playoffs) or even partially this year and last (0.56 PPG this year, 0.53 PPG last year). In the end, we gave up way less for Ryan for many years than the Sharks gave up for Karlsson who could be there only 1 year in the end. The problem with Ryan is mainly money which wouldn't be that much of a problem in a "normal" team with better finances. If you don't account the dead costs (the 2 LTIR contracts as well as Phaneuf and Burrows costs), the team is spending almost 20 M$ under the cap and that's With Ryan's contract

Tierney should also return some piece(s) if he was to be traded, not sure what will happen in his case, IMO you keep Pageau and trade Tierney but impossible to predict anything with this team atm.

Sure, a team like SJ was in a position to make that gamble and are trying to go all in to win their current core but if EK walks and they didn't win or went far in the playoffs, it will hurt no matter what. In that case, it becomes a 1 year rental. Important players like Couture, Pavelski, Thornton, Vlasic and Burns (even Braun) are "aging" so might as well try to go for it rather than wait and see and get beat by better teams. A trade doesn't necessarily has to be team 1 vs team 2, both teams have different reasons to make a trade and are looking to fill different needs. Sens could be happy with the return for a player they wouldn't have been able to keep more than 1 year (Melnyk/finances), Sharks could still be happy with a good gamble even if it didn't work as much as they would have hoped.

Like I have said many times before, my problem with the trade is not the package in itself for a "1 year rental" but why would that kind of player ended up traded as a "rental" at the worst timing possible (just before training camp) and why would you not focus on getting quality D-men back, particularly when you already have several quality forward prospects (had White, Tkachuk, Brown, Batherson, Formenton and Chlapik). Of course, in a ideal world, Melnyk is not the owner and Karlsson and Hoffman are still part of the team but that boat has sailed unfortunately.

 

[stempniaksen]

Tierney easily gets either a late 1st or two 2nd round picks. Look at what players like Eller and Shaw were moved for.

It doesn't make sense for the Senators to move him right now though. He's cost controlled for another year, and then has a third year of team control. The time to move him would be at next year's draft or deadline to a team who likes him enough to want to extend him long term.

You could argue the ideal time to move him would be while he's still cost controlled, imo. At least from the perspective of dealing him at his highest value if the plan isn't to sign him after his current deal. The Senators have (seemingly) always waited too long to deal their players only moving on from them once they are close to needing new contracts, ect.

If Tierney isn't in the teams long-term plans I think they need to move him by the beginning of next season, or risk seeing his value diminish (even if only slightly).

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Well, I totally disagree with this and for many reasons. The same could be said about any trade the Sens made to improve their team (or any team for that matter), but those trades have been lambasted or deemed as huge losses by many (Duchene, Ryan, etc) even if they were extended or possibly extended. In all those trades of a current player for a future package, teams are obviously betting on getting their "chances" higher.

Maybe losing DeMelo and Tierney doesn't hurt them at all (because they had the depth) but a 1st (that still could be high next year) and a 2nd this year are 2 pieces that no team will not see as a significant (without talking about the other 2 conditional 1st). But it's not just the picks, we have no idea what Balcers and Norris will be but the potential is there. Personally, I see Norris as becoming a player close to White impact level. Harder to say about Balcers but he will eventually get his chance, could see him having a Dzingel-like impact down the road.

It's easy to say "none of those pieces hurt them at all" but in reality if the roles were reversed and the Sens gave up White, Chlapik, a 1st (that could be lottery next year), a 2nd, Pageau and Harpur for a star player that didn't re-sign in the end, many fans would be calling for the GM's head without any doubt, and that's with the Sens prospect pool being much better than the Sharks. Heck, look at the amount of complaining for Duchene trade even if we gave up less in Turris, Bowers and a 1st + 3rd (which would have been similar in value IMO to White, Pageau and a 1st that could be lottery next year). So basically (again IMO), Sharks gave up Chlapik, a 2nd and Harpur in additional value to get Karlsson for 1 year compared to a younger and a bit cheaper Duchene for 2 years. Sure Karlsson is supposed to be much better than Duchene but EK is not as dominant as he was pre-injury, although he seems to be slowly going back to his elite level.

Or even the Ryan trade, honestly not having any of Silfverberg (0.51 PPG with the Ducks despite prime TOI and opportunity), Ritchie (0.34 PPG in 207 Games) (although we could possibly have made a better draft choice but not guaranteed as that draft was kind of weak) and Noesen (ended up being waived) doesn't hurt but yet some are still talking about this deal as the end of the world... And Ryan didn't walk after 1 year, he had 2 years at $5,562,500 salary and put up ~0.7 PPG seasons. He ended up being extended (what people wanted) and still had another ~0.7 PPG season. Sure he's been overpaid since and inconsistent (mainly due to being so injury prone) but he had some solid stretches of hockey (ex : 2017 playoffs) or even partially this year and last (0.56 PPG this year, 0.53 PPG last year). In the end, we gave up way less for Ryan for many years than the Sharks gave up for Karlsson who could be there only 1 year in the end. The problem with Ryan is mainly money which wouldn't be that much of a problem in a "normal" team with better finances. If you don't account the dead costs (the 2 LTIR contracts as well as Phaneuf and Burrows costs), the team is spending almost 20 M$ under the cap and that's With Ryan's contract

Tierney should also return some piece(s) if he was to be traded, not sure what will happen in his case, IMO you keep Pageau and trade Tierney but impossible to predict anything with this team atm.

Sure, a team like SJ was in a position to make that gamble and are trying to go all in to win their current core but if EK walks and they didn't win or went far in the playoffs, it will hurt no matter what. In that case, it becomes a 1 year rental. Important players like Couture, Pavelski, Thornton, Vlasic and Burns (even Braun) are "aging" so might as well try to go for it rather than wait and see and get beat by better teams. A trade doesn't necessarily has to be team 1 vs team 2, both teams have different reasons to make a trade and are looking to fill different needs. Sens could be happy with the return for a player they wouldn't have been able to keep more than 1 year (Melnyk/finances), Sharks could still be happy with a good gamble even if it didn't work as much as they would have hoped.

Like I have said many times before, my problem with the trade is not the package in itself for a "1 year rental" but why would that kind of player ended up traded as a "rental" at the worst timing possible (just before training camp) and why would you not focus on getting quality D-men back, particularly when you already have several quality forward prospects (had White, Tkachuk, Brown, Batherson, Formenton and Chlapik). Of course, in a ideal world, Melnyk is not the owner and Karlsson and Hoffman are still part of the team but that boat has sailed unfortunately.

In my post I clearly said that it would take Karlsson walking, the Sharks missing the playoffs, and the Sharks winning a lottery pick for the trade to be bad for them.

With the Duchene trade, those three things are dangerously close to happening.

Consider, we got back a much lesser player than Karlsson, and what we gave up at the time was a similar valued package to what we eventually got for Karlsson. Including the value derived from Turris, Bowers is similar to Norris, there was a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the trade, they also got Girard and Kamenov where as we got Tierney and Balcers and Demelo. Demelo while he's been very solid for us wasn't worth much at the time illustrated by the fact that he went unqualified by San Jose and wasn't signed for a considerable time after July 1st. I would take Girard and Kamenov over Tierney and Balcers.

We don't necessarily get that same package back for Turris at the deadline, but because there is no way of knowing what we would have negotiated for, it's a fair expression of his value even know we did not give up those pieces (Nashville did, we gave up equivalent value in Turris).

We gave up similar value for 2 years of a lesser player vs 1 year of a significantly more impactful player in Karlsson. We're also getting dangerously close to living up the worst case scenario that San Jose would need to follow for the Karlsson trade to be a mistake that I outlined in my post you quoted.

At what point is this not consistent? Dorion took a big risk overpaying in a trade where even with the overpayment, if certain things happened could have actually turned out to be a brilliant move. Instead, we're living out something very close to a worst case scenario where we could possibly lose Duchene and hand Colorado a building block type player at the draft. Again, the same scenario I outlined in my main post.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

You could argue the ideal time to move him would be while he's still cost controlled, imo. At least from the perspective of dealing him at his highest value if the plan isn't to sign him after his current deal. The Senators have (seemingly) always waited too long to deal their players only moving on from them once they are close to needing new contracts, ect.

If Tierney isn't in the teams long-term plans I think they need to move him by the beginning of next season, or risk seeing his value diminish (even if only slightly).

problem with dorion is im like "play Tierney with stone for a bit next year and get something good for him next year".. but dorion will end up fooling himself and somehow we Tierney ends up signing a 6x6 deal as a Sen

 

[aragorn]

12 Days of Christmas:

1. Thomas Chabot is at the top of NHL defencemen in scoring.
2. Before Duchene got hurt, he was in the top 10 in NHL scoring.
3. Colin White is 2nd in rookie scoring.
4. Brady Tkachuk is 4th in rookie scoring.
5. Mark Stone leads the league in steals & should be the next Sens captain.
6. Drake Batherson has lead Belleville in scoring all yr even after missing 17 games during his time in Ottawa & was a hit in his first few games in Ottawa.
7. Filip Gustavsson who some are predicting will be Ottawa's future #1 goalie.
8. Logan Brown was projected to be a #1 centre in the NHL.
9. Josh Norris seems to have top 9 potential.
10. Alex Formenton could be one of the fastest players in the NHL, if not the fastest.
11. JBD is off to a great start of his college career & is projected to be a top 4 D.
12. Max Lajoie, Christian Jaros & Ben Harpur are all looking like they could be decent NHL defencemen & they all bring something different.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

12 Days of Christmas:

1. Thomas Chabot is at the top of NHL defencemen in scoring.
2. Before Duchene got hurt, he was in the top 10 in NHL scoring.
3. Colin White is 2nd in rookie scoring.
4. Brady Tkachuk is 4th in rookie scoring.
5. Mark Stone leads the league in steals & should be the next Sens captain.
6. Drake Batherson has lead Belleville in scoring all yr even after missing 17 games during his time in Ottawa & was a hit in his first few games in Ottawa.
7. Filip Gustavsson who some are predicting will be Ottawa's future #1 goalie.
8. Logan Brown was projected to be a #1 centre in the NHL.
9. Josh Norris seems to have top 9 potential.
10. Alex Formenton could be one of the fastest players in the NHL, if not the fastest.
11. JBD is off to a great start of his college career & is projected to be a top 4 D.
12. Max Lajoie, Christian Jaros & Ben Harpur are all looking like they could be decent NHL defencemen & they all bring something different.

13. Was dorion aware of any in inappropriate actions done by randy lee in the past?

 

[Boud]

12 Days of Christmas:

1. Thomas Chabot is at the top of NHL defencemen in scoring.
2. Before Duchene got hurt, he was in the top 10 in NHL scoring.
3. Colin White is 2nd in rookie scoring.
4. Brady Tkachuk is 4th in rookie scoring.
5. Mark Stone leads the league in steals & should be the next Sens captain.
6. Drake Batherson has lead Belleville in scoring all yr even after missing 17 games during his time in Ottawa & was a hit in his first few games in Ottawa.
7. Filip Gustavsson who some are predicting will be Ottawa's future #1 goalie.
8. God created Erik Karlsson
9. Josh Norris seems to have top 9 potential.
10. Alex Formenton could be one of the fastest players in the NHL, if not the fastest.
11. JBD is off to a great start of his college career & is projected to be a top 4 D.
12. Max Lajoie, Christian Jaros & Ben Harpur are all looking like they could be decent NHL defencemen & they all bring something different.

fixed

 

[aragorn]

13. Was dorion aware of any in inappropriate actions done by randy lee in the past?

Good question & who knows? I assume they will try & avoid any questions regarding that & consider the case now closed since the trial is done unless buddy decides to sue the Sens. It's another black eye for the org, add that to the list of beatings this org has gotten all yr & deservedly so for their incompetence & most of it was self inflicted by Mr. Dickhead.

 

[aragorn]

fixed

Maybe you didn't notice he is no longer on the team.

 

[Boud]

Maybe you didn't notice he is no longer on the team.

True. Thought it was a nightmare...

 

[Icelevel]

The les we see and hear from him the more I like him.
Belleville and Ottawa rosters are looking pretty solid just need young d and goalies to mature and progress.

Solid drafting and developing so far. Sure some of the trades are very questionable but they can be forgotten as long as Dorion and the team keep progressing.

Sign duchene and stone, trade Dzingel. Next year add brown and Batherson. Try and move Ryan and smith

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

It seems like if everything goes best case scenario with Ottawa and it’s players we will still get smoked by the leafs for the next 5+ years. Might as well blow it up

 

[JungleBeat]

The Sens are last in the division and the B Sens are too. Dorion is entering the holiday break at the basement.

What a pathetic job he’s done from top to bottom.

 

[Tundraman]

The Sens are last in the division and the B Sens are too. Dorion is entering the holiday break at the basement.

What a pathetic job he’s done from top to bottom.

They are selling hope with some up and coming players that haven't put it all together yet for a variety of reasons.

I'm not defending Dorion's choices but the weaknesses in Ottawa plus injuries on both teams have contributed to Belleville not doing as well as we might have expected. There were nights the B-Sens could barely stitch a roster together.