the most overrated Hockey player of all time

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Without question it's Gretzky. No question at all. None. This favoritism is the most shameful display by a league, ever. Utterly unparalleled.

Oh GAWD here we go again

 

[hcdt]

You shoudnt use those references to downplay Lidstrom on the list because of timing... his career ended much later than even the latest of the lists.

You've never heard of Messier being considered a Top-10 player, but you've heard of Nicklas Lidstrom as a Top-10 player? Do you never leave HOH?

THN (1998), ESPN (2004), FSN (2005), and THN (2007*) has him above the four highlighted players. Always. He's considered borderline Top-10 everywhere but here. He's considered a legitimate two-time Hart Trophy winner everywhere but here.

*Mikita obviously wasn't on the Top 60 since 1967 list

 

[Sentinel]

i love luc and don't care for selanne at all. but even i don't see how selanne > robitaille is even remotely debatable. hart voting, scoring finishes, even career totals (if teemu outlasts the lockout, he's almost a lock to pass robitaille in career goals; has already passed luc in points). if you adjust for era and position, it becomes even more mind-boggling. how is this an argument?

You and I hardly ever agree on anything. Scoring finishes to me are fairly lame when one player competes with prime Gretzky and Lemieux and the other does not. But that's not even the point. Selanne may be better than Robitaille, but FAR from being in "the whole other class.". They will both end up with 600+ goals, I'm not gonna be splitting hairs here. Trading one for another when you are playing Oilers and need net presence is not likely something DRW would do.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You and I hardly ever agree on anything. Scoring finishes to me are fairly lame when one player competes with prime Gretzky and Lemieux and the other does not. But that's not even the point. Selanne may be better than Robitaille, but FAR from being in "the whole other class.". They will both end up with 600+ goals, I'm not gonna be splitting hairs here. Trading one for another when you are playing Oilers and need net presence is not likely something DRW would do.

Selanne didn't compete against Lemieux? He wins the Art Ross in 1997 if it isn't for Mario Lemieux. He also wins his second Art Ross in 1999 if it weren't for Jagr (who isn't Gretzky/Lemieux, but is a step up from everyone else in regular season offense).

If you think Robitaille is a "better fit" or something, that's one thing. But prime Robitaille was a big step behind prime Selanne as a player.

 

[seventieslord]

Selanne didn't compete against Lemieux? He wins the Art Ross in 1997 if it isn't for Mario Lemieux. He also wins his second Art Ross in 1999 if it weren't for Jagr (who isn't Gretzky/Lemieux, but is a step up from everyone else in regular season offense).

If you think Robitaille is a "better fit" or something, that's one thing. But prime Robitaille was a big step behind prime Selanne as a player.

Absolutely.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Selanne didn't compete against Lemieux? He wins the Art Ross in 1997 if it isn't for Mario Lemieux. He also wins his second Art Ross in 1999 if it weren't for Jagr (who isn't Gretzky/Lemieux, but is a step up from everyone else in regular season offense).

If you think Robitaille is a "better fit" or something, that's one thing. But prime Robitaille was a big step behind prime Selanne as a player.

+1

Lucky Luc was a very good player that collected a lot of garbage goals over the years. Selanne was considered an elite player for a good chunk of his career.

For me, Luc is closer to Gartner than he is to Selanne.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

You and I hardly ever agree on anything. Scoring finishes to me are fairly lame when one player competes with prime Gretzky and Lemieux and the other does not. But that's not even the point. Selanne may be better than Robitaille, but FAR from being in "the whole other class.". They will both end up with 600+ goals, I'm not gonna be splitting hairs here. Trading one for another when you are playing Oilers and need net presence is not likely something DRW would do.

i can't tell if you're being disingenuous or if you really need me to explain it to you. but here it is because i wanted to check for myself to make sure:

robitaille's goal finishes:

9 (behind gretzky, kerr, kurri, mario, ciccarelli, goulet, mullen, hawerchuk)
4 (behind mario, simpson, carson)
10 (behind mario, nicholls, yzerman, gretzky, nieuwendyk, mullen, carson, rob brown, kerr)
6 (behind hull, yzerman, neely, bellows, lafontaine)
7 (behind hull, fleury, neely, yzerman, gartner, sakic)
7 (behind hull, stevens, roberts, roenick, lafontaine, yzerman)
4 (behind selanne, mogilny, mario)
10 (behind selanne, jagr, amonte, yashin, leclair, sakic, satan, lindros, fleury)
9 (behind bure, nolan, amonte, kariya, jagr, shanahan, leclair, modano)

robitaille's points finishes:

5 (behind mario, gretzky, savard, hawerchuk)
10 (behind mario, gretzky, yzerman, nicholls, rob brown, coffey, mullen, kurri, carson)
5 (behind mario, stevens, gretzky, hull)
9 (behind mario, lafontaine, oates, yzerman, tugeon selanne, mogilny, gilmour)

selanne's goal finishes:

1 (tied with mogilny, ahead of mario, robitaille, bure, yzerman, turgeon, stevens, hull, andreychuk)
2 (behind tkachuk, ahead of leclair, mario, palffy, shanahan, jagr, bondra, kariya, hull)
1 (tied with bondra, ahead of leclair, bure, palffy, tkachuk, nieuwendyk, brind'amour, jagr, four players tied for tenth)
10 (behind cheechoo, jagr, ovechkin, kovalchuk, heatley, gionta, gagne, staal, alfredsson)
3 (behind lecavalier, heatley, ahead of ovechkin, vanek, st. louis, hossa, kovalchuk, gagne, jason blake)

selanne's point finishes:

5 (behind mario, lafontaine, oates, yzerman, tied with turgeon, ahead of mogilny, gilmour, robitaille, recchi)
7 (behind mario, jagr, sakic, francis, forsberg, lindros, tied with kariya, ahead of fedorov, mogilny)
2 (behind mario, ahead of kariya, leclair, gretzky, jagr, sundin, palffy, francis, shanahan)
8 (behind jagr, forsberg, bure, gretzky, francis, palffy leclair, ahead of allison, stumpel)
2 (behind jagr, ahead of kariya, forsberg, sakic, yashin, lindros, fleury, leclair, demitra)
5 (behind jagr, bure, recchi, kariya, ahead of amonte, nolan, modano, sakic, yzerman)
8 (behind both sedins, st. louis, perry, stamkos, iginla, ovechkin, tied with zetterberg, ahead of brad richards)


so while we must factor in quality of competition when evaluating competition, selanne is still so incredibly far ahead of robitaille that it doesn't matter. we can compare the guys robitaille finished behind and the guys selanne finished ahead of.

when you factor for era, the fact that they have basically identical career goal totals doesn't mean selanne wasn't the better goal scorer. robitaille had a full six seasons in a favourable scoring climate before selanne entered the league. robitaille had already slowed down by the time scoring levels dropped, which coincided with selanne's peak.

"whole other class" is evidenced by selanne's higher and more numerous top ten points finishes, as well as the fact that he has more career points in significantly fewer games than robitaille despite his era disadvantage. one guy is a multi-year hart candidate, the other never got a single hart vote in his entire career. gretzky or no gretzky, mario or no mario, that means selanne is in a whole other class.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Mats Sundin. Great Captain and very consistent, but never an elite player.

Easily an elite centre.

 

[King Forsberg]

Easily an elite centre.

Probably. After doing more investigating on Sundin maybe I am under valuing him a tad.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I would be really surprised if neither Pierre Lebrun or Scott Burnside had a vote for the Conn Smythe, and I would guess that NHL.com has voters too.

Based on what I saw, Brodeur outplayed his opposing goalie in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs - and by a clear margin in the final few games of each series. This is the general perception of the fans and the media who watched the games, and the stats agree.

IMO, Brodeur was better than Quick in 4 of the 6 games of the finals, but part of that was that he had to be better as NJ's skaters were outclassed.

And no, Brodeur was excellent, but wasn't good enough to be a rare winner on a losing team, especially with the Game 6 blowout.

When you post things like "Brodeur couldn't have been that great, look at his overall save percentage and GAA," you are neglecting the fact that he played high scoring teams in 3 of the 4 rounds and that his GAA and save % were better than his opposing goaltender in the first 3 rounds. You also make it hard for me to believe you watched much of the Devils in the last playoffs.

I watched all the Devil's games, my friend.

And with my usual, totally unbiased eyes!

 

[Plural]

I guess you are correct.

Even though 6 other goaltenders had a better save percentage and goals against during the playoffs than Brodeur, he still could have won the Conn Smythe.

And what's the title of this thread?

The thing is tough, you can't compare raw stats in playoffs that easily. In post season you have to watch the games to know ho has been important and valuable to team and who has not. Obviously if you post stats like 20+20 as a forward it is safe to assume the conn smythe is yours, but goalies especial are hard to judge with stats only.

 

[Plural]

i love luc and don't care for selanne at all. but even i don't see how selanne > robitaille is even remotely debatable. hart voting, scoring finishes, even career totals (if teemu outlasts the lockout, he's almost a lock to pass robitaille in career goals; has already passed luc in points). if you adjust for era and position, it becomes even more mind-boggling. how is this an argument?

It is not an argument, it is pretty clear that Selanne was/is better than Luc. No point of debating it.

 

[livewell68]

The top 10 most overrated players in NHL history

Since I made a topic for the top 10 most underrated players in NHL history, I also thought it would be fitting to start a topic to discuss the top 10 most overrated players in NHL history.

Here is my top 10 in order:

1. Peter Forsberg
2. Phil Esposito
3. Martin Brodeur
4. Terry Sawchuk
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Brett Hull
7. Marcel Dionne
8. Mark Messier
9. Sidney Crosby
10. Steve Yzerman

I know my list is going to be controversial for some and especially because of certain selections of mine.

Discuss.

 

[MXD]

Since I made a topic for the top 10 most underrated players in NHL history, I also thought it would be fitting to start a topic to discuss the top 10 most overrated players in NHL history.

Here is my top 10 in order:

1. Peter Forsberg
2. Phil Esposito
3. Martin Brodeur
4. Terry Sawchuk
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Brett Hull
7. Marcel Dionne
8. Mark Messier
9. Sidney Crosby
10. Steve Yzerman

I know my list is going to be controversial for some and especially because of certain selections of mine.

Discuss.

See post in "underrated" thread.

It's hard to put Crosby here (because his career is far from being over and we obviously don't know his legacy yet...), and Forsberg 1st makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Worraps]

Since I made a topic for the top 10 most underrated players in NHL history, I also thought it would be fitting to start a topic to discuss the top 10 most overrated players in NHL history.

Here is my top 10 in order:

1. Peter Forsberg
2. Phil Esposito
3. Martin Brodeur
4. Terry Sawchuk
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Brett Hull
7. Marcel Dionne
8. Mark Messier
9. Sidney Crosby
10. Steve Yzerman

I know my list is going to be controversial for some and especially because of certain selections of mine.

Discuss.

You've listed 4 of the top 10 scorers of all time who have won, as a group, 10 Stanley Cups, 2 Conn Smythes, 4 Harts, and 1 Selke ...

In what possible way could they be overrated?

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Martin Brodeur
Mike Richter
Gerry Cheevers
Maurice Richard
Peter Forsberg
Chris Pronger
Bob Gainey
Pat Lafontaine
Jeremy Roenick
Keith Tkatchuk

 

[JackSlater]

Joe Nieuwendyk was the first name I thought of. I still don't get why he was thought of as an unquestionable HHOF player after he retired. Likability shouldn't be a factor.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Brodeur probably better places in the underrated thread because no one appreciates him it seems...they look at numbers, make some mental adjustment for a defensive system they probably don't understand and wonder why he didn't give up 1 goal per game instead of 2...so he probably shouldn't go in this thread...

Neither should Crosby, I can't imagine how anyone could come to that conclusion...he's done nothing but meet and exceed the lofty hype that was set forth for him...he's been the best player in the game all-around since he stepped onto the ice I gotta believe...

Dionne gets trashed for his playoff failures and never seems to get any respect...not sure who it is that's overrating him...but maybe, I'm not sure on that one...

Messier is overrated to me though, so is Forsberg (though, he's another one like Brodeur where now it's coming full circle and eventually he'll be underrated again), looks like we came to the conclusion that Sawchuk is/was, whatever that's worth...not a lot of respect for Richter on this board, but outside of it, yes, he's overrated (many believe he's top-10 ever it seems)...

I'll throw in Tim Thomas, Eddie Shore, Guy Lafleur might be a touch overrated in terms of what he accomplished vs. what he could do outside the dynasty years...

 

[542365]

Hard to say Crosby is overrated when his career is far from over. When he's out there, he scores. He does everything the hype said he would and more.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Joe Nieuwendyk was the first name I thought of. I still don't get why he was thought of as an unquestionable HHOF player after he retired. Likability shouldn't be a factor.

I agree with this. He was a #2 centre throughout his career.
If he didn't suffer knee injuries early in his career he probably would have put up even better numbers. But he was never the go to guy on most of his teams or the top centre.

 

[Saku11]

No reason to have Hull and Dionne on the list. Pure goalscorers are always underrated. Crosby on the list crazy talk, theres so many people who will tell you he cant play at all.Number 1 spot is a good choice, but Forsberg could also split that spot with Pavel Datsyuk. Both just tremendously overrated players....

 

[slim399]

I find it hard to call Messier overrated.

2nd all time in points
2nd all time in games played
6 Stanley Cups
2 Hart Trophies
1 Conn Smythe
13- 80+ pnt seasons
17- 20+ goal seasons
15 all star games
Played a strong chippy two way game and was always on the 1st power play and penalty kill units
Also known as one of the greatest captains in the history of the game.

Messier is constantly ranked in the 20-30 range all time. Hardly overrated

 

[Plante]

Begins and ends with Shore.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1212595

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Begins and ends with Shore.

Based on what you saw of him?